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There is no hell. (2)

Timothew

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If you do not believe in hell you cannot believe in God or heaven. Please do not try to pick and choose what parts of the Bible you want to believe.
We are trying to understand what the Bible means by "Hell."
I really want to know. When the Bible says hell, if it means the cartoon version with caverns and flames and devils with pointy tails and pitchforks then I'm OK with that.
profilepic248542_8.gif

But what if Jesus and the prophets and apostles had something else in mind when they said Hell? I want to know what they were talking about. It's important.
Jesus said Hell (Ge'enna), He was talking about the Valley outside of Jerusalem.
When Jesus said "τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον," did He mean that the goats burn in that fire alive forever in conscious torment, or are we reading that into what He said?
If I put paper on a fire it is consumed. Isn't it logical to assume that Jesus was talking about the destruction of the wicked when He said they go into the eternal fire, unless you have a preconceived idea of what the eternal fire is.

When the prophets said Sheol, did they have Gary Larson's cartoon in mind, or did they mean "the grave"?
I want to know. If Sheol means the Lake of Fire where people are burnt alive forever, then why did David want to go there to be with his son? Why did David, according to your theory, believe that his son was in Hell, being tortured?

Try to reach a full understanding of the Bible. Please do not try to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you believe. And don't make assumptions about people who who more about the bible than you do.
 
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Der Alte

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We are trying to understand what the Bible means by "Hell."
I really want to know. When the Bible says hell, if it means the cartoon version with caverns and flames and devils with pointy tails and pitchforks then I'm OK with that.

* * *Image omitted * * *

But what if Jesus and the prophets and apostles had something else in mind when they said Hell? I want to know what they were talking about. It's important.
Jesus said Hell (Ge'enna), He was talking about the Valley outside of Jerusalem.
When Jesus said "τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον," did He mean that the goats burn in that fire alive forever in conscious torment, or are we reading that into what He said?
If I put paper on a fire it is consumed. Isn't it logical to assume that Jesus was talking about the destruction of the wicked when He said they go into the eternal fire, unless you have a preconceived idea of what the eternal fire is.

When the prophets said Sheol, did they have Gary Larson's cartoon in mind, or did they mean "the grave"?
I want to know. If Sheol means the Lake of Fire where people are burnt alive forever, then why did David want to go there to be with his son? Why did David, according to your theory, believe that his son was in Hell, being tortured?

Try to reach a full understanding of the Bible. Please do not try to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you believe. And don't make assumptions about people who who more about the bible than you do.

No picking and choosing, a result of several years researching. Two posts, back to back, every verse I could find, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post the early church and eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud the teaching of Hillel and Shammai the two rabbinical schools in Israel at the time of Jesus on eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post Lazarus and the rich man. Link!

Previous post ECF on Lazarus and the rich man. Link!
 
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Timothew

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No picking and choosing, a result of several years researching. Two posts, back to back, every verse I could find, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post the early church and eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud the teaching of Hillel and Shammai the two rabbinical schools in Israel at the time of Jesus on eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post Lazarus and the rich man. Link!

Previous post ECF on Lazarus and the rich man. Link!
Hi Der Alter!
I answered your 28 points long ago, they are irrelevant and off topic.
It's nice to see you again!
Tim
 
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Der Alte

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Hi Der Alter!
I answered your 28 points long ago, they are irrelevant and off topic.
It's nice to see you again!
Tim

And I refuted all your responses! Wrong! They are neither irrelevant nor off topic! Everything I posted addresses your request and the topic of this thread "There is no hell." You asked what did Jesus and the disciples mean when they said hell, I posted every verse I could find where Jesus addresses eternal punishment. How is that irrelevant and off topic? How is the historic teachings of the Jews and the early church on eternal punishment off topic and irrelevant? Looks like you only want to get stroked and hear from people who agree with your assumptions/presuppositions.
 
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Timothew

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And I refuted all your responses! Wrong! They are neither irrelevant nor off topic! Everything I posted addresses your request and the topic of this thread "There is no hell." You asked what did Jesus and the disciples mean when they said hell, I posted every verse I could find where Jesus addresses eternal punishment. How is that irrelevant and off topic? How is the historic teachings of the Jews and the early church on eternal punishment off topic and irrelevant? Looks like you only want to get stroked and hear from people who agree with your assumptions/presuppositions.
Your point #3 as an example,
[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness1 shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
How does this point address whether there is or is not a place called hell where devils torture people for all eternity?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Your point #3 as an example,

How does this point address whether there is or is not a place called hell where devils torture people for all eternity?
What about these verses :)

Matthew 8:12 The yet Sons of the Kingdom shall-be-being-cast-out into the darkness, the outer, there shall be the lamentation and the gnashing of the teeth. [Gnashing used 7 times, 6 times Matt, 1 time Luke]

Luke 13:28 There shall be the lamentation and the gnashing of the teeth whenever ye should be seeing Abraham, and Isaac and Jacob and all the Prophets in the Kingdom of the God, ye yet being cast-out outside.

Reve 22:15 Outside/exw <1854> the dogs/kuneV <2965> and the sorcerers and the prostituters and the muderers and the idolaters and every one being fond of and doing falseness.
 
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Der Alte

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Your point #3 as an example,
[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness1 shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
How does this point address whether there is or is not a place called hell where devils torture people for all eternity?

I don't recall saying that every passage I listed spoke about hell. I said eternal punishment and being denied entry into heaven is punishment. The fact that some are denied entry into heaven does not show there is no hell! I listed every passage I could find which touched on the subject, in the order they occur in the Bible, so that I could not be accused of selective quoting or misrepresentation. Would you care to address the several passages which do speak of hell, and my accompanying remarks?
 
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Timothew

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What about these verses :)

Matthew 8:12 The yet Sons of the Kingdom shall-be-being-cast-out into the darkness, the outer, there shall be the lamentation and the gnashing of the teeth. [Gnashing used 7 times, 6 times Matt, 1 time Luke]

Luke 13:28 There shall be the lamentation and the gnashing of the teeth whenever ye should be seeing Abraham, and Isaac and Jacob and all the Prophets in the Kingdom of the God, ye yet being cast-out outside.

Reve 22:15 Outside/exw <1854> the dogs/kuneV <2965> and the sorcerers and the prostituters and the muderers and the idolaters and every one being fond of and doing falseness.
Were those verses in Der Alter's 28 points? I don't remember.

These verses seem to be saying that they will be cast out, and yet the Hell Teachers want to claim that sinners will be tortured in the Lake of Fire. Are they out or in? Or is the language symbolic of death? Outside of God's Kingdom where only there is eternal life, therefore death. In the Lake of Fire, which John said was the second death.
 
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Timothew

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I don't recall saying that every passage I listed spoke about hell. I said eternal punishment and being denied entry into heaven is punishment. The fact that some are denied entry into heaven does not show there is no hell! I listed every passage I could find which touched on the subject, in the order they occur in the Bible, so that I could not be accused of selective quoting or misrepresentation. Would you care to address the several passages which do speak of hell, and my accompanying remarks?

You said,
No picking and choosing, a result of several years researching. Two posts, back to back, every verse I could find, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment.

I said, this one, for instance, does not address eternal punishment.

I do NOT want to go through each, one by one, again, showing how they do not address eternal punishment, only to have you say, "Not every passage addresses eternal punishment."

If you have a passage which does prove that non-believers are tortured in hell for all eternity, Please post that.
 
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Der Alte

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You said,

I said, this one, for instance, does not address eternal punishment.

I do NOT want to go through each, one by one, again, showing how they do not address eternal punishment, only to have you say, "Not every passage addresses eternal punishment."

If you have a passage which does prove that non-believers are tortured in hell for all eternity, Please post that.

Why don't you read through the list and any scripture you find that you think proves there is no hell quote that and discuss it.

From the list of twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked, the passages which specifically mention or imply eternal punishment.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.
[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
[ . . . ]
[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
At the end of the world, “All things that offend/the wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire.” What is the duration of burning in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.
[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.
[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion].​
In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment

If the &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion punishment ends at some indeterminate time in the future, so too does the &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion life. The same word.

Does &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion punishment mean only indeterminate ages long, that will eventually end?
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [&#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​
If the &#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957; torment, of those who worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark of his name, ends at some, indeterminate, time in the future then the smoke is no longer theirs.

Does &#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957; means some definite, finite, “eon of eons,” in the future, when the torment ends? No! 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, God’s unchanging word will still say, “those who worship the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who worship the image of the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who receive the mark of the beast, they have no rest day or night.”


[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave or are destroyed, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern them?
[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.[/indent]
What is the portion of the unbelievers? &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.
[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​
[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​
When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.
 
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Timothew

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Why don't you read through the list and any scripture you find that you think proves there is no hell quote that and discuss it.

Because when I do that, you say "not every verse supports the doctrine of eternal punishment."

Why don't you pick one that you think does support the doctrine of eternal punishment?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Does &#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957; means some definite, finite, &#8220;eon of eons,&#8221; in the future, when the torment ends? No!
:)

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the Ages of the Ages.
And I am having the Keysof the Hades and of the Death

touV aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of them into Ages of Ages is ascending. And not they are having rest of Day and of Night the Ones worshipping the Beast ....................

eiV <1519> aiwnaV <165> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 19:3 and a second time They have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

eiV touV aiwnaV twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the fire and of sulfur, the where also the Beast and the False-prophet. And they shall be being tormented of day and of night into the Ages of the Ages.

eiV <1519> touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 22:5And night not is being there and need not they are having of a lamp and light of sun. That Lord the God shall be lighting them, and they shall reigning intothe Ages of the Ages.

eiV <1519> touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>
 
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Timothew

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Or we can start with #1
[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

What happens to chaff when it is burnt up with unquenchable fire?
 
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papaJP

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Why all the wrangling over an english word. Get into the context of the use in the Bible and you will find that what most understand as hell should be understand as seperation from God and to face the punishment of God. Most spend to much time debating ideas that are confused by the fleshly understanding of the mind and do not allow the Holy Spirit of God to convince you of the truth.
If you want me to debate and post a lot of words I do not have time to waste.
Since I have been to heaven and been with God on His throne and know my rewards I only discuss this with those who have doubts and need guideance as to where to go to study and how to pray for God's revelation.

If what I post seems simplistic it is because I believe and know what God has given me is the truth.
 
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Timothew

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Why all the wrangling over an english word. Get into the context of the use in the Bible and you will find that what most understand as hell should be understand as seperation from God and to face the punishment of God. Most spend to much time debating ideas that are confused by the fleshly understanding of the mind and do not allow the Holy Spirit of God to convince you of the truth.
If you want me to debate and post a lot of words I do not have time to waste.
Since I have been to heaven and been with God on His throne and know my rewards I only discuss this with those who have doubts and need guideance as to where to go to study and how to pray for God's revelation.

If what I post seems simplistic it is because I believe and know what God has given me is the truth.

Good for you. No need to think or study the bible. You already have the truth.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Since I have been to heaven and been with God on His throne and know my rewards I only discuss this with those who have doubts and need guideance as to where to go to study and how to pray for God's revelation.

If what I post seems simplistic it is because I believe and know what God has given me is the truth.
:thumbsup: :amen:

Hebrew 12:22 But ye have come toward to Zion, to a mountain and to a City of God, a living Jerusalem, heavenly, to myriads of messengers,
23 to an all-convocation and assembly of firstborns having been written in heavens and to a judger, to God of all and to spirits of just-ones having been perfected.
24 And of a Covenant, young/neaV <3501>, to a mediator, Jesus, and to a blood of sprinkling better speaking beside the Abel.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Timothew Good for you. No need to think or study the bible. You already have the truth.
What else is new about all that right? ^_^
There is nothing new under the sun.......:p

Luke 5:37 "And no one is casting young wine into OLD vessels, if yet no surely shall be ruined the wine, the young of the vessels and it shall be being poured-out and its vessel shall be perishing .
38 but young wine into NEW vessels is to be cast and both are preserved together.
39 and no one drinking OLD immediately is willing Young, for he is saying, 'for the the OLD kind/gracious is'".
[Hebrews 8:13/Reve 19:3]
 
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Fireinfolding

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There is nothing new under the sun.......:p

Luke 5:37 "And no one is casting young wine into OLD vessels, if yet no surely shall be ruined the wine, the young of the vessels and it shall be being poured-out and its vessel shall be perishing .
38 but young wine into NEW vessels is to be cast and both are preserved together.
39 and no one drinking OLD immediately is willing Young, for he is saying, 'for the the OLD kind/gracious is'".
[Hebrews 8:13/Reve 19:3]

2Peter 1:2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you...

Thats what I was speaking of Lamb, in that context
 
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