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There is no hell. (2)

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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2Peter 1:2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you...

Thats what I was speaking of Lamb, in that context
:)
I know that verse quite well sis :thumbsup:
Call no man Teacher :p

http://www.christianforums.com/t7405089-4/#post53043894
What the sign?

Luke 21:7 They yet inquire of Him saying "Teacher, when? then these shall be and what? the Sign whenever may be being about these to be becoming"

2Peter 2:1 There became yet also False-Prophets in the people as also in ye shall be False-Teachers whoany shall be carrying in sects of destruction,
and the One buying them, Owner/Master/despothn <1203> disowning, bringing on them swift destruction.
[Matt 24:11/Jude 1:4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUASiDg-kg4&feature=related
 
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Fireinfolding

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:)
I know that verse quite well sis :thumbsup:
Call no man Teacher :p

Luke 21:7 They yet inquire of Him saying "Teacher, when? then these shall be and what? the Sign whenever may be being about these to be becoming"

2Peter 2:1 There became yet also False-Prophets in the people as also in ye shall be False-Teachers whoany shall be carrying in sects of destruction, and the One buying them, Owner disowning, bringing on them swift destruction.
[Matt 24:11/Jude 1:4]

Good to know ;):p
 
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ivebeenshown

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2 Thessalonians 1
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Peter 3
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (ap&#333;leian).

Revelation 9
11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

1 Corinthians 15
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished (ap&#333;lonto).

:scratch: So if God is omnipresent, yet these people who are destroyed will be somehow not in his presence, what can that mean?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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2 Thessalonians 1
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

:scratch: So if God is omnipresent, yet these people who are destroyed will be somehow not in his presence, what can that mean?
Interesting question.
What about Reve 14:10 :confused:

Revelation 14:10 And/also he is drinking out of the wind of the fury of the God of the having been blended undiluted in the drink cup of the wrath of him and he shall be being tormented/basanisqhsetai <928> (5701) in fire and sulfur in sight of the messengers, holy-ones, and in view of the lambkin.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1
TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB

The words torment, tormented, tormentors, and torments occur twenty-one times in the King James version, and all in the New Testament. Three of these are in connection with the lake of fire. Let me give you the quotations. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS (MESSENGERS) AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages): and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev. 14:10-11). "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages - see Part One of this series -'Just What Do You Mean ... ETERNITY!')" (Rev. 20:10).
 
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ivebeenshown

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Interesting question.
What about Reve 14:10 :confused:

Revelation 14:10 And/also he is drinking out of the wind of the fury of the God of the having been blended undiluted in the drink cup of the wrath of him and he shall be being tormented/basanisqhsetai <928> (5701) in fire and sulfur in sight of the messengers, holy-ones, and in view of the lambkin.

Hmmm.... DRINKING of the CUP of WRATH:

1 Obadiah
15For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
16For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
17But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
 
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Der Alte

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2 Thessalonians 1
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Peter 3
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction (ap&#333;leian).

Revelation 9
11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

1 Corinthians 15
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished (ap&#333;lonto).


So if God is omnipresent, yet these people who are destroyed will be somehow not in his presence, what can that mean?

It means the word translated "destruction" cannot mean destroyed, not in existence, since it is modified by "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
 
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Timothew

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It means the word translated "destruction" cannot mean destroyed, not in existence, since it is modified by "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
Actually, destruction does mean destroyed. Destruction is the act of destroying something. You can look it up, if you need to.
 
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Der Alte

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Actually, destruction does mean destroyed. Destruction is the act of destroying something. You can look it up, if you need to.

If I had said destruction does not mean destroyed your argument might be meaningful but that is not what I said. "The word translated "destruction" cannot mean destroyed, not in existence, since it is modified by "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." If something is destroyed it is NOT "from" anything! Below the definition of the word translated "destruction" in 2 Thes 1:9, from the online BAGD Greek lexicon!
&#959;&#787;&#769;&#955;&#949;&#952;&#961;&#959;&#962; ou, oJ ( Hom. +; Dit., Syll. 3 527, 82 [ c. 220 BC ]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX ; Philo ; Jos. , Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; Sib. Or. 3, 327; 348) destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of relig. coloring: e[rcetaiv tini o[l. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26 ). aijfnivdio" aujtoi`" ejfivstatai o[l. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3 . buqivzein tina; eij" o[l. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9 . o[l. aijwvnio" eternal death ( Test. Reub. 6:3) 2 Th 1:9 ( s.ojlevqrio" ). paradou`naiv tina tw`/ satana`/ eij" o[l. th`" sarkov" hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cor 5:5 (handing over to Satan will result in the sinner’s death.—EvDobschütz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden ’02, 269-72 and s. paradivdwmi 1b.— Hierocles 14 p. 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby). Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also IEph 13:1 o{tan puknw`" ejpi; to; aujto; givnesqe, kaqairou`ntai aiJ dunavmei" tou` satana` kai; luvetai oJ o[l. aujtou` when you come together frequently, the ( spirit- ) powers of Satan are destroyed, and his destructiveness is nullified. M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
 
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Timothew

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Thanks,
&#959;&#787;&#769;&#955;&#949;&#952;&#961;&#959;&#962; ou, oJ ( Hom. +; Dit., Syll. 3 527, 82 [ c. 220 BC ]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX ; Philo ; Jos. , Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; Sib. Or. 3, 327; 348) destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of relig. coloring: e[rcetaiv tini o[l. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26 ). aijfnivdio" aujtoi`" ejfivstatai o[l. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3 . buqivzein tina; eij" o[l. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9 . o[l. aijwvnio" eternal death ( Test. Reub. 6:3) 2 Th 1:9 ( s.ojlevqrio" ). paradou`naiv tina tw`/ satana`/ eij" o[l. th`" sarkov" hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cor 5:5 (handing over to Satan will result in the sinner’s death.—EvDobschütz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden ’02, 269-72 and s. paradivdwmi 1b.— Hierocles 14 p. 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby). Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also IEph 13:1 o{tan puknw`" ejpi; to; aujto; givnesqe, kaqairou`ntai aiJ dunavmei" tou` satana` kai; luvetai oJ o[l. aujtou` when you come together frequently, the ( spirit- ) powers of Satan are destroyed, and his destructiveness is nullified. M-M. *
So if God is omnipresent, yet these people who are destroyed will be somehow not in his presence, what can that mean?
It means that people who are destroyed have died.
 
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Sherha

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This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "There is no hell."

ABSOLUTELY THERE IS A HELL
. Rev. 1:18;6:8;20:14,15. Just because you say it, doesn't mean there is no hell.
 
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Der Alte

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If I had said destruction does not mean destroyed your argument might be meaningful but that is not what I said. "The word translated "destruction" cannot mean destroyed, not in existence, since it is modified by "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." If something is destroyed it is NOT "from" anything! Below the definition of the word translated "destruction" in 2 Thes 1:9, from the online BAGD Greek lexicon!
&#959;&#955;&#949;&#952;&#961;&#959;&#962;, &#959;&#965;, &#959; ( Hom. +; Dit., Syll. 3 527, 82 [ c. 220 BC ]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX ; Philo ; Jos. , Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; Sib. Or. 3, 327; 348) destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of relig. coloring: e[rcetaiv tini o[l. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26 ). aijfnivdio" aujtoi`" ejfivstatai o[l. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3 . buqivzein tina; eij" o[l. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9 . o[l. aijwvnio" eternal death ( Test. Reub. 6:3) 2 Th 1:9 ( s.ojlevqrio" ). paradou`naiv tina tw`/ satana`/ eij" o[l. th`" sarkov" hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cor 5:5 (handing over to Satan will result in the sinner’s death.—EvDobschütz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden ’02, 269-72 and s. paradivdwmi 1b.— Hierocles 14 p. 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby). Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also IEph 13:1 o{tan puknw`" ejpi; to; aujto; givnesqe, kaqairou`ntai aiJ dunavmei" tou` satana` kai; luvetai oJ o[l. aujtou` when you come together frequently, the ( spirit- ) powers of Satan are destroyed, and his destructiveness is nullified. M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker

Thanks,

It means that people who are destroyed have died.

Does your highlighting only definitions which seem to support your false assumptions/presuppositions and ignoring the other definitions, erase all the other definitions and prove your assumptions/presuppositions in any particular verse?

Appears to me that you want to reinterpret Jesus to make his words harmonize with Paul in 2 Thes 1:9. Who's in charge in your religion Jesus or Paul? Should we not interpret Paul to harmonize with Jesus NOT the wrong way around? Long before Paul was a believer, Jesus said "everlasting punishment" NOT "everlasting destruction," and Jesus is the head of the church NOT Paul!
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​
 
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Timothew

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Does your highlighting only definitions which seem to support your false assumptions/presuppositions and ignoring the other definitions, erase all the other definitions and prove your assumptions/presuppositions in any particular verse?

Appears to me that you want to reinterpret Jesus to make his words harmonize with Paul in 2 Thes 1:9. Who's in charge in your religion Jesus or Paul? Should we not interpret Paul to harmonize with Jesus NOT the wrong way around? Long before Paul was a believer, Jesus said "everlasting punishment" NOT "everlasting destruction," and Jesus is the head of the church NOT Paul!
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
You highlighted the portions of the definition which seemed to support your false presuppositions. I showed you the portions of the definition which opposed your false assumptions. You seemed to be ignoring the main point of the definition you posted, so I highlighted it.

Jesus and Paul are not in disagreement. Where did you ever get that idea? Have you heard the phrase "interpret scripture by scripture"? Jesus said "&#954;&#972;&#955;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#957; &#945;&#7984;&#974;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;" (eternal punishment). Paul stated what the penalty was to be. "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction."

Jesus and Paul seem to you to be in disagreement because you are looking at scripture through the lenses of your presuppositions.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus Interesting question.
What about Reve 14:10
confused.gif


Revelation 14:10 And/also he is drinking out of the wind of the fury of the God of the having been blended undiluted in the drink cup of the wrath of him and he shall be being tormented/basanisqhsetai <928> (5701) in fire and sulfur in sight of the messengers, holy-ones, and in view of the lambkin.
Hmmm.... DRINKING of the CUP of WRATH:

1 Obadiah
15For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
16For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
17But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
Ahhh...good scripture! :thumbsup:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 7
TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB

The words torment, tormented, tormentors, and torments occur twenty-one times in the King James version, and all in the New Testament. Three of these are in connection with the lake of fire. Let me give you the quotations. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS (MESSENGERS) AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages): and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev. 14:10-11).
 
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Der Alte

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You highlighted the portions of the definition which seemed to support your false presuppositions. I showed you the portions of the definition which opposed your false assumptions. You seemed to be ignoring the main point of the definition you posted, so I highlighted it.

Jesus and Paul are not in disagreement. Where did you ever get that idea? Have you heard the phrase "interpret scripture by scripture"? Jesus said "&#954;&#972;&#955;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#957; &#945;&#7984;&#974;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;" (eternal punishment). Paul stated what the penalty was to be. "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction."

Jesus and Paul seem to you to be in disagreement because you are looking at scripture through the lenses of your presupposition
s.

So you get to decide what is and is not the "main point" of the definition? NO scholarship or historical or Biblical evidence to support you, just your unsupported assumption! All you are doing is saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"

You are partly correct about interpreting scripture by scripture but you interject you false post 19th century assumptions/presuppositions onto the text. We do NOT interpret Jesus by Paul, we interpret Paul to harmonize with Jesus! Paul wrote 30-40 years after Jesus therefore to correctly interpret scripture by scripture we interpret the later, Paul, by the earlier, Jesus! We interpret the lesser, Paul, by the greater, Jesus! Unless you can produce some scholarship which shows differently?
 
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ivebeenshown

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We do NOT interpret Jesus by Paul, we interpret Paul to harmonize with Jesus!

That's just it, 'everlasting punishment' does not says 'everlasting torture'. Destruction, annihilation, could be the punishment. I don't really have a solid stance myself on what 'hell' is all about just yet because I don't think I've looked at all of the possibilities yet. But I do know that when one verse has that 'wiggle room' it's best to not try to use that verse for an argument.
 
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Timothew

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So you get to decide what is and is not the "main point" of the definition? NO scholarship or historical or Biblical evidence to support you, just your unsupported assumption! All you are doing is saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"

You are partly correct about interpreting scripture by scripture but you interject you false post 19th century assumptions/presuppositions onto the text. We do NOT interpret Jesus by Paul, we interpret Paul to harmonize with Jesus! Paul wrote 30-40 years after Jesus therefore to correctly interpret scripture by scripture we interpret the later, Paul, by the earlier, Jesus! We interpret the lesser, Paul, by the greater, Jesus! Unless you can produce some scholarship which shows differently?
All scripture is God breathed.

Paul writes with the wisdom God gave him.

My "opinion" is not unsupported, I've given you scriptural proofs.
All you can do is interject your medieval ideas about hell into the bible.
You are the one saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"
 
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Der Alte

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All scripture is God breathed.

Paul writes with the wisdom God gave him.

It is not a question of Paul's inspiration but your uninspired interpretation of what Paul wrote. Jesus is my Lord, not Paul. Anything Paul wrote must be interpreted by what Jesus said not the wrong way around as you are doing!

My "opinion" is not unsupported, I've given you scriptural proofs.

No you have given me a post 19th century false religion interpretation of scripture.

All you can do is interject your medieval ideas about hell into the bible.
You are the one saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"

You quite evidently know virtually nothing about the history of hell. Stayed tuned for actually credible evidence versus your unsupported opinion. The ancient Jews before the time of Christ believed in a place of eternal punishment. Note the scripture is highlighted in blue.
Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, &#913;&#955;&#951;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#921;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#961;&#953;&#945;&#953;, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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The view of the major schools in Israel at the time of jesus. All this means that "hell" is not a medieval concept!
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened on New Year's Day: one for the utterly wicked, one for the wholly good, and one for the average class of people. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the entirely wicked are at once inscribed, and destruction destined for them; the average class are held in the balance from New Year's Day till the Day of Atonement; if they prove themselves worthy they are inscribed for life, if not they are inscribed for destruction. Said R. Abhin: Whence this teaching? From the passage [Psalms, lxix. 29]: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and they shall not be written down with the righteous."

We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. xii. 2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him." Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again."

The school of Hillel
says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].


Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces." R. Itz'hac b. Abhin says: "Their faces are black like the sides of a caldron"; while Rabha remarked: "Those who are now the handsomest of the people of Me'huzza will yet be called the children of Gehenna."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

Schools of Hillel and Shammai

In the first century BCE, Babylonian born Hillel (later known as Hillel the Elder) migrated to the Land of Israel to study and worked as a woodcutter, eventually becoming the most influential force in Jewish life. Hillel is said to have lived in such great poverty that he was sometimes unable to pay the admission fee to study Torah, and because of him that fee was abolished. He was known for his kindness, gentleness, concern for humanity. One of his most famous sayings, recorded in Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers, a tractate of the Mishnah), is "If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?" The Hillel organization, a network of Jewish college student organizations, is named for him. Hillel and his descendants established academies of learning and were the leaders of the Jewish community in the Land of Israel for several centuries. The Hillel dynasty ended with the death of Hillel II in 365 CE.
Hillel the Elder’s friendly adversary was Shammai, a native of the Land of Israel about whom little is known except that he was a builder, known for the strictness of his views. He was reputed to be dour, quick-tempered and impatient. Both lived during the reign of King Herod (37-4 BCE), an oppressive period in Jewish history because of the Roman occupation of the Land of Israel. Shammai was concerned that if Jews had too much contact with the Romans, the Jewish community would be weakened, and this attitude was reflected in his strict interpretation of Jewish law. Hillel did not share Shammai's fear and therefore was more liberal in his view of law.

Hillel was the more popular of the two scholars, and he was chosen by the Sanhedrin, the supreme Jewish court, to serve as its president. While Hillel and Shammai themselves did not differ on a great many basic issues of Jewish law, their disciples were often in conflict.

Jewish Virtuallibrary.org
 
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Der Alte

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That's just it, 'everlasting punishment' does not says 'everlasting torture'. Destruction, annihilation, could be the punishment. I don't really have a solid stance myself on what 'hell' is all about just yet because I don't think I've looked at all of the possibilities yet. But I do know that when one verse has that 'wiggle room' it's best to not try to use that verse for an argument.

Which verse are you saying has "wiggle room?" Death is a penalty not a punishment! In Matthew 25 Jesus says the righteous go away into "eternal life" and the unrighteous into "eternal punishment!" Both end at the same time. Jesus did not use one word with two different meanings in one sentence. See my two posts immediately above. Jesus and his disciples would have been taught about hell in the temple and synagogues and Jesus said nothing, no wiggle room, which contradicts the Jewish view of hell.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Which verse are you saying has "wiggle room?" Death is a penalty not a punishment!

penalty Synonym

I thought those were synonyms.

In Matthew 25 Jesus says the righteous go away into "eternal life" and the unrighteous into "eternal punishment!" Both end at the same time. Jesus did not use one word with two different meanings in one sentence. See my two posts immediately above. Jesus and his disciples would have been taught about hell in the temple and synagogues and Jesus said nothing, no wiggle room, which contradicts the Jewish view of hell.

That's just it, the 'wiggle room' is that the death could never end, without any more resurrection. The eternal life could last forever and the 'eternal death' could last forever, that is, if death is indeed the punishment.
 
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