There is no Free Will PERIOD

[Mark Quayle]

What I like to know is not whether one can choose Christ or not by free will, but what this inclination is that made me choose to start this day with a glass of water, instead of coffee which I normally do. Even if an evil person only chooses evil, can he not by free will choose the kind of evil? How is the inclination making him choose this specific act of evil rather than another? That's the question.

Is every choice decreed/scripted? How can we prove that without going to the Bible? And in that case how does this scripting work? I was inclined to drink water, yes, but why did I actually choose it? Because of my inclination? Then what is this inclination, a thought, a feeling, a desire or what?

The cause is the chain of causation. Your inclination is one of the many things in that chain, but is easy to identify because what you decide always is according to that inclination.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Total depravity doesn't mean that we're really nasty people. It means that we're rebellious towards doing the things of God, things that are for our and others' benefit. Paul tells us in Romans that the Gentiles fail without the law even though God is plain to them. The Jews fail with the law because they can't keep the commandments. The law is good simply because it shows us our failings. We need the grace and mercy of God.

Everything you’ve said right here is exactly true. The problem is that none of it makes any sense at all if we don’t have free will and God controls every choice we make. How can we rebel against God if it is God who controls our choices?

 

[BNR32FAN]

If a child is raped and killed, then there is a purpose to it that we in our limited understanding cannot see. But don't blame God for what we cannot comprehend.

Here you’re mentioning the problem with your theology but not giving any explanation for it and on top of that you’re contradicting what you said in the first paragraph of your post.

Calvinism doesn't say that God planned all of the evil that will ever happen. There might be some very extreme forms of this but I've never come across it in all my readings. What it does say is that man and Satan are the perpetrators of evil. God restrains this evil or uses it for His purposes to bring about good. But God is not the author of evil.

If God is controlling every choice every person makes then He absolutely is the author and perpetrator of sin because according to you He is the only one who has any control over whether or not the person does it. What you’re saying is that God is the only source of sin and evil in the world.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1 Peter 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Foreknown is not a description to help us better understand things. This verse gives a time stamp. In 1 Peter God foreknew what He was going to do before the foundation of the world. So before anything was created, God ordained what would take place.

Are you saying that God does not exist in all time simultaneously?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here’s a list of a few where God Himself specifically says that we do make our own choices.

““See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,”

‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30‬:‭15‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬



““Go and speak to David, ‘Thus the Lord says, “I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I will do to you.” ’ ””

‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭24‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬



“I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight.””

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬



“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.”

‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭7‬:‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Every one of these verses show God Himself specifically stating that we do make our own choices.

 

[Strong in Him]

All that comes to pass can only do so because of what God has established/decreed/ordained.
God ordained that Adam could sin. . .and Adam chose to do so.

God gave Adam a command and Adam chose not to obey it, certainly.
But decreeing that someone will sin sounds very much like planning that someone will sin - as you said, previously, that it was to show God's glory. That is what I am challenging.

He gave Adam the ability to choose righteousness or unrighteousness.

He gave Adam a command.
We are not told that he said, "disobeying this command is unrighteousness and these are the consequences."

My answer goes to the premise of your question--i.e., that man is the measure of goodness and justice--

I didn't say that.
GOD is the standard for goodness and justice. He is perfect, living, merciful, just etc.

"Your ways are not my ways.
My ways are higher (better) than your ways" (Isa 55:8-9).

"Ways" and "character" are two different things.

We can know God's character because it is revealed in Scripture; he IS love, he is perfect, he is merciful and full of compassion. Which is why I said that he would not make someone sin, then punish them for that. When I've written something about God and you've replied "how do you know?" That's how - Scripture.
But your answer to that is one verse, which talks about God's ways - i.e. plans, ways of working, and not his unchangeable nature.

I have presented the Bible's view of God. . .which you see as illogical.

So have I - which you have ignored.

Do you believe his word which has been presented to you above?

Do you believe that God IS love, that he is kind, patient, merciful, perfect and a loving heavenly Father as I have said?

 

[HarleyER]

Everything you’ve said right here is exactly true. The problem is that none of it makes any sense at all if we don’t have free will and God controls every choice we make. How can we rebel against God if it is God who controls our choices?

I think that people get wrapped around the axle on "free will".

God's Will - There is God's will which is perfect and unstained. Every decision God makes, He makes perfectly. So Christ, being tempted in the wilderness, had legitimate choices. He looked at those choices and, being led by God's Holy Spirit, always choose to do the right thing, every single time.

Free Will - Free will implies that, in ourselves and apart from any outside influences, we can make the right decision for God. Thus, technically, one could live a unstained life and live according to the law of God. We know this is impossible because no one does what is right. And nowhere in Scripture is free will ever mentioned.

Human Will - We, on the other hand, have what I call a human (not free) will to distinguish it from "free". This human will is rebellious towards the things of God because, like Adam, we just want to take that bite of the fruit. If God tells us not to put peas up our nose, guess what we're going to do. God has to change our hearts so that 1) we are not rebellious towards Him; 2) give us grace and mercy so that we are forgiven for all our rebellion, and 3) give us His Holy Spirit so that we can walk in His steps being led by the Spirit to make the right choices for His Kingdom.

Once God changes our will, we are no longer slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness. But, as Paul and John and just about everyone else states, we are still imperfect waiting for the day when every choice we make will be a godly choice like Christ. We no longer practice sin but we still sin. We don't always walk in the Spirit.

Everything we do is ordained by God so that, despite our failings, we bear much fruit through Christ. All things work together for our good to grow in the grace of our Lord Jesus. And if some missionary is killed in the jungle of South America, as tragic as that is, God has ordained that, and fruit will be born. God only calls us to be faithful to Him so that we bear fruit.

Can we rebel against God? I think the more one grows in God's grace, they really would never want to. But we must be on guard when we think we stand less we fall. There are several kings in the Old Testament who were walking along and then went off the rails for one reason or another. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. We might fail Him (like Jonah), but God always uses even our failings to teach us and benefit others. But, yes, some shipwreck their faith and ruin their testimony before the world. That doesn't make God love them any less nor is it outside the scope of God's plan. They are no longer effective in testifying to the love of God and serves as examples to the rest of us (Ananias and Sapphira come to mind Acts 10).

And then there are some who become apostates (like Judas) and fall away completely. John tells us these people went out from us because they were not of us. If they had been of us they would have continued with us. (1 John 2:19)

 

[HarleyER]

Here you’re mentioning the problem with your theology but not giving any explanation for it and on top of that you’re contradicting what you said in the first paragraph of your post.


If God is controlling every choice every person makes then He absolutely is the author and perpetrator of sin because according to you He is the only one who has any control over whether or not the person does it. What you’re saying is that God is the only source of sin and evil in the world.

I see no contradictions.

God is sovereign. He controls even the hairs on our heads (I could do with a few more). This does not make God the author and perpetrator of sin. In 2 Chronicles 18 God asked:

‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one spirit said this, while another said that. 20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’ 21 He said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You shall entice him, and you will also prevail. Go out and do so.’​

God controlled the situation. God did not entice Ahab. Ahab fell. End of story for Ahab.

 

[HarleyER]

Are you saying that God does not exist in all time simultaneously?

I'm saying the verse from Peter shows this is BEFORE the foundations of the world began. Thus there MUST be a "time" of eternity past, present, and future.

God does look at one section of time and then prophise it will happen 700 years earlier based on "our choices". How would God know these choices if they hadn't been made yet?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Human Will - We, on the other hand, have what I call a human (not free) will to distinguish it from "free". This human will is rebellious towards the things of God because, like Adam, we just want to take that bite of the fruit. If God tells us not to put peas up our nose, guess what we're going to do. God has to change our hearts so that 1) we are not rebellious towards Him; 2) give us grace and mercy so that we are forgiven for all our rebellion, and 3) give us His Holy Spirit so that we can walk in His steps being led by the Spirit to make the right choices for His Kingdom.

This is an exaggeration of our sinful nature. God commanded thou shalt not murder. How many people did you murder before you came to Christ? I’m guessing zero. Our sinful nature means that we can’t live a perfect life free of sin. Has that changed after you came to Christ? Are you now able to live a perfect life free of sin? I still can’t, no matter how hard I try I still fail sometimes, but the difference is I do try not to sin now whereas before it didn’t bother me as much. We’ve been given the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sin causing us to refrain from it. Before we came to Christ we still refrained from sin but not as much because we didn’t care whether we sinned or not. We didn’t go around punching everyone we met in the face or stealing everything in sight because of earthly consequences but now our expectations are higher because have a genuine love for God so we don’t take pleasure in doing the things that displeases Him. That’s the difference between the natural man and the regenerated man.

 

[zoidar]

The cause is the chain of causation. Your inclination is one of the many things in that chain, but is easy to identify because what you decide always is according to that inclination.

Can you give an example of what that inclination might be that I right now chose coffee?

 

[Mercy Shown]

People are DEAD (upper case) in sin. You can't even repent unless God grants it to you (2 Tim 2:25).

Calvinism doesn't say that God planned all of the evil that will ever happen. There might be some very extreme forms of this but I've never come across it in all my readings. What it does say is that man and Satan are the perpetrators of evil. God restrains this evil or uses it for His purposes to bring about good. But God is not the author of evil.

Here you go:
Calvinist theologian James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied:

*** “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.” (James White, Why it is Important to Go Back to the Sources, Illustrated.)

No, God is not the author of evil, nor does He cause it. This issue is not whether we were dead in our sins and trespasses. The Bible has settled that; our experience has taught us this is true. The issue, in this case, would be whether He raised us spiritually and then *forced us to be saved or whether He raised us to a spiritual life that we may consider that which we could not before. The latter means that all men will have the appeal of God and be given the light they need to consider it. In the end, it will be the free will (freed by God) choice of every man to resist or submit that will seal their eternal fate.

*Force can either be violent or manipulation of the mind of an individual to choose what He desires they should choose.

If a child is raped and killed, then there is a purpose to it that we in our limited understanding cannot see. But don't blame God for what we cannot comprehend. We cruxcified His only Son, remember? And this was ordained by God the Father.

This is horrible. To think that God would have a purpose in visiting evil on a child is not a God of love. All of the crime and evil comes from man's heart, not God's.

The free gift of eternal life is a gift for the world. But look around you. How many want that free gift? Go up to your Uncle Bob and ask him if he wants this free gift and see what his response will be.

He said Absolutely!!

Unless the Holy Spirit convict your Uncle Bob of his sin, he will never come to Christ.

The Holy Spirit convicts everyone. That is what the bible says. Some will respond, and some will reject the gift, but it will be done by the free will God granted them by the death of His son. The light which lights every man to be born into this earth.

 

[Clare73]

God gave Adam a command and Adam chose not to obey it, certainly.
But decreeing that someone will sin

Did I say that?

I said "allowing."

sounds very much like planning that someone will sin - as you said, previously, that it was to show God's glory. That is what I am challenging.

God uses sin to his glory, particularly in redemption.

See Ro 9:19-23.

He gave Adam a command.
We are not told that he said, "disobeying this command is unrighteousness and these are the consequences."

What do you think Ge 2:17 is?

He died spiritually (lost eternal life) on the spot, and then died physically years later.

I didn't say that.
GOD is the standard for goodness and justice. He is perfect, living, merciful, just etc.

Did I say you did? . . .I said it was the premise of your question.

"Ways" and "character" are two different things.

Character determines/governs ways.

Do you believe that God IS love, that he is kind, patient, merciful, perfect and a loving heavenly Father as I have said?

As much as you believe all that Scripture states and shows about God. . .

 

[BNR32FAN]

And then there are some who become apostates (like Judas) and fall away completely. John tells us these people went out from us because they were not of us. If they had been of us they would have continued with us. (1 John 2:19)

What John wrote in 1 John 2 was in reference to a specific group of people. There’s nothing in that passage that indicates that it applies to everyone who apostatizes. That idea was formulated by reformed theologians to support the doctrine of eternal security. Heres the problem with the use of that verse. In John 15:2 Jesus says

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Greek word Aion that is translated to “takes away” in the NASB means to remove from its place and when used in reference to anything that is attached to something it means to cut off or remove. False professors are never joined to Christ. So when Jesus says every branch IN ME that means that they were in fact true believers.

2 Timothy 2:12 is another example. Paul wrote to Timothy and said this to him.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here Paul tells Timothy that if he or Timothy were to deny Christ that He would deny them. Now if Paul or Timothy were to deny Christ that wouldn’t mean that they were never joined to Christ or that they were never true believers because we know for a fact that they were.

James 5:19-20 is another example.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here James makes it clear that if one of the brethren strays from the truth his soul is in danger of death. But if another brother TURNS HIM BACK, which means turns him back to what he previously believed, then that brother will have saved his soul from death. This is telling us that just because someone turns away it doesn’t mean that they were never a true believer. If they were never a true believer then turning them BACK wouldn’t save their soul from death.

These are three examples that true believers can fall away and just because someone does fall away doesn’t mean that they were never a true believer.

Furthermore it also means that these people were drawn to Christ by The Father and they are still capable of falling away.

Here’s a few more verses verses that reformers misinterpret that contradict the scriptures above. John 10:28-29

“and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬-‭29‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If I am holding a frog in my hand and I say no one can snatch this from from my hand that means that a third party cannot take the frog from my hand. It doesn’t mean that I said that the frog can’t jump from my hand and it doesn’t mean that I said that I can’t throw the frog from my hand.

Another one John 6:37

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭37‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Greek word translated to “comes or cometh” is used only in the present and imperfect tense which means that only those who are presently or continuously coming to Him, He will not cast out. It doesn’t mean that anyone who ever came to Him he will not cast out. This particular Greek word is never used in the past tense.

Another one John 6:39

“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here Jesus is not saying that He will lose none. I’ve seen so many people misquote this verse by leaving out the first 9 words “it is the will of Him who sent Me”. The Greek word translated to “will” in this verse does not always mean something that God has decreed. It can also mean something that God desires. The same Greek word is used in 1 Timothy 2:4 the only difference is John 6:39 uses the noun form and 1 Timothy 2:4 uses the verb form but they both have the exact same definition.

So your application of 1 John 2:19 is incorrect.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I see no contradictions.

God is sovereign. He controls even the hairs on our heads (I could do with a few more). This does not make God the author and perpetrator of sin. In 2 Chronicles 18 God asked:

‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one spirit said this, while another said that. 20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’ 21 He said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You shall entice him, and you will also prevail. Go out and do so.’​

God controlled the situation. God did not entice Ahab. Ahab fell. End of story for Ahab.

In this situation God didn’t control Ahab’s choice, He deceived Ahab into making the choice. Why would He have needed a spirit to deceive Ahab if He is already controlling his every thought and decision?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm saying the verse from Peter shows this is BEFORE the foundations of the world began. Thus there MUST be a "time" of eternity past, present, and future.

God does look at one section of time and then prophise it will happen 700 years earlier based on "our choices". How would God know these choices if they hadn't been made yet?

How would God know our choices before they’re made? I don’t know why you’re asking me this. The answer should be astronomically obvious if God exists in all time simultaneously. How would He not know everything that will ever happen if He exists in all time simultaneously?

 

[Panthers]

In the raw sense it is like this,

Big bangs (Natural universal starts) can only start one way for a viable universe to exist.
All universes according to thermodynamics will descend into entropy and return to hydrogen, (from which they came)
Therefore, all viable universes will start the same and end the same.
meaning everything in between, will be exactly the same as another big bang, (had there ever been)
In such cases of simultaneous universes.
EACH UNIVERSE WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME!

Hence, there is the second death.
Revelation 2:11

Ultimately, the decisions made in one universe, will be exact decisions made in past or future universes!
The only difference in every universe, is Christ our Intercessor.
without Him, all hydrogen is ignited forever.

 

[Panthers]

^this is how God knows everything (multiple universes, eternal life)

 

[Mark Quayle]

Can you give an example of what that inclination might be that I right now chose coffee?

Do you think there are any neutral desires? I don't.

I don't know what makes you choose coffee. But I do know that if you are in fellowship with Christ, and you choose coffee, whatsoever is of faith is not sin. And by that, I don't mean one has to study the question of whether they are acting in faith, or whether it is the Lord's will that they have some, before deciding if coffee is a suitable choice. It is not the choice that makes the difference, but the heart.

But if I was to guess, you have, (among myriad other causes), had positive experiences with coffee, and a barely conscious notion of how it makes you feel, or otherwise affects you —i.e. you are reasonably sure you would enjoy some— and you see it would take relatively little effort to obtain some, and on and on. If you are inclined to love Christ, you will enjoy it with him. If you are inclined to rebel, you will enjoy it without him.

Maybe some other example would be more useful to directly answer your question. Prayer?

 

[Rose_bud]

Perhaps I wasn't being very clear. I would agree that the hardness of the heart is not caused by God. It is our nature, our essence if you will, to be rebellious towards the things of God. It is not just limited to the Israelites, but it is the nature of man. No sooner had they walked out of the ark after the flood, than all the people started to build the tower of Babel. This is the way we all are-rebellious.

God must give us a new heart and spirit BEFORE we ask so that we will walk in His statutes. He must change our nature. Until He does, we will always be rebellious towards Him.

We're in agreement then, that God is not responsible for our hard hearts and rejection of Him. Instead, He graciously draws us to Himself, despite our natural tendency towards rebellion. Just as the Israelites responded to God's revelation with either acceptance or rejection, we too have the capacity to choose. When God's self-revelation confronts our rebellious nature, it prompts us to either surrender and yield to His will or resist His grace.