There is no Free Will PERIOD

[HarleyER]

Foreknowledge is a noun and foresee is a verb. It just depends on how the word is being used in a sentence. I probably should’ve used the word foreknew instead of foresee but in the statement I said right before that I did specifically say “according to His foreknowledge”. So now that we have clarified the grammatical issue, what did God foreknow that influence His choice?

I'm not sure you have the correct understanding of "foreknowledge" or I'm confused by your comment.

Look, if we took the verse:

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

1) FOREKNOWLEDGE-God decided that He wanted to share His glory with some.
2) PREDESTINED-God put into action how He was going to share His glory.
3) CALLED-God then called those who are His sheep (and we hear His voice). John 10
4) JUSTIFIED-God justified by His blood His sheep.
5) GLORIFIED-And God will one day bring us to His glory.

It isn't difficult to understand. It is just difficult to accept. In step 3 God only those who hear His voice are called.

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

It is our job to find the lost sheep. It is God's business to save those who He wills.

BTW-You will never fully understand the Gospel of John or the book of Romans without understanding this principle.

 

[Neogaia777]

Amen, now consider the feeling of love you have towards your family, your parents, brothers & sisters, wife, children. Do you think you could have that same feeling of love for your computer if you programmed it to be affectionate towards you? If it couldn’t respond to you any way other than what you programmed it to do would that be as special and valuable to you as the love you receive from your family?

Love, and especially the feeling of love, as powerful and profound and special as it is, or whatever, is still part of what we were predestined to come to know/feel/learn, etc.

If a computer had the ability to feel, it could very easily do or show or exhibit the same, etc.

God Bless.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1) FOREKNOWLEDGE-God decided that He wanted to share His glory with some.

How is this an example of foreknowledge? The book of life was written at creation. How were we chosen according to His foreknowledge?

 

[Mercy Shown]

The fact that you still see it that way shows your complete rebellion/lack of understanding and refusal to submit to God's will.

That being said, we don't know any of this that God knows/already knew a long, long time ago already, etc. And so, for us, everything is still always from the perspective of choice, for absolutely all of us still no matter what, etc.

So giving up on making choices, is not ever an option for us, etc.

God Bless.

What option? You appear to contradict the proposition of the OP. Either we have a free will and options or we have no free will thus no options.

 

[Neogaia777]

What option? You appear to contradict the proposition of the OP. Either we have a free will and options or we have no free will thus no options.

The latter.

What I meant was that we cannot go through life without making what to us are choices, or appear to be choices, etc. Even though technically, they are not, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Clare73]

The bible has many verses that state mankind (angels as well) has free choice .... Love can not exist without choice.

Who made that rule?

 

[HarleyER]

How is this an example of foreknowledge? The book of life was written at creation. How were we chosen according to His foreknowledge?

Predestination and foreknowledge are linked together. Foreknowledge is making a plan. Predestination is implementing the plan. (To put it simply.) Here it is in reverse order from Romans.

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.​

God's foreknowledge and predetermined (predestined) the death of His Son before anything took place.

Salvation is based upon the election of God the Father, not us making some decision. The Father gives us to the Son and no one snatches us out of His hand. We only know that Christ is the Messiah because God has chosen us:

Matthew 16:17​

And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.​

 

[Clare73]

Predestination and foreknowledge are linked together. Foreknowledge is making a plan. Predestination is implementing the plan. (To put it simply.) Here it is in reverse order from Romans.

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.​

God's foreknowledge and predetermined (predestined) the death of His Son before anything took place.
Salvation is based upon the election of God the Father, not us making some decision. The Father gives us to the Son and no one snatches us out of His hand. We only know that Christ is the Messiah because God has chosen us:

Matthew 16:17​

And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.​

God's foreknowledge (prognosis) in Scripture is of his own works, not of man's works:

GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE: (as distinct from man's)
Ac 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men (Gentiles), put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
Ac 4:28: "They did what your power and will foreordained (beforehand) should happen."

**In the two above verses, who determined the events God foreknew would happen to Jesus, was it man or God?

Is 48:3 - "I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them, I made them known; then suddenly I acted; and they came to pass."
Is 37:26 - "Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass."

**In the above two verses, who caused the events that God foreknew and foretold would happen, was it man or God?

Ac 15:18 - "Known to the Lord from all eternity are his works."

God's foreknowledge concerns events that God causes to happen.
And the elect "according to the foreknowledge of God" are elect because God causes (chooses) them to be so for his own purposes, just as he chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for no other reason than he chose them.

God knows in advance what is going to happen because God has willed that it shall happen.
So in the Bible, God's foreknowledge is about what God is going to do, not about what man is going to do.

So "those whom God foreknew" in the Bible means those whom God had chosen to infinitely love and to determine their saving destiny in advance.
So that God's foreknowledge of the redeemed is an infinitely loving foreknowledge of them which saves.

In love - God chose to love us, not because of anything in us, not because we were lovable or worthy, but simply because he chose us (Dt 7:7).
God's infinite love for the redeemed is grounded in his goodness, not their goodness.
He loves them because he is good, not because they are good.
God's plan, before he ever created anything, was from the corrupted fallen, hopelessly lost human race headed for eternal destruction, of which you were a part, he would save you . .(some, but not all).
So God chose us from all eternity before time ever began.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," (John 15:16).

 

[Rose_bud]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.


Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

God's sovereignty and human free will is something that I can hold in tension. Although my leaning is more Armenian, as I acknowledge the wisdom of God in giving us choice.

 

[Mercy Shown]

The latter.

What I meant was that we cannot go through life without making what to us are choices, or appear to be choices, etc. Even though technically, they are not, etc.

God Bless.

Then why does God appeal to humanity since they are all puppets on His strings?

 

[Neogaia777]

Then why does God appeal to humanity since they are all puppets on His strings?

Because God the Spirit, and Jesus Christ, are/were all locked into all this determinism/predestination by the Heavenly Father God as well, and didn't always have 100% knowledge about how it was all always going to happen, or was always going to go as well.

So we sometimes see Them appealing to humanity to choose what is right and best for them sometimes, etc.

If They always fully knew everything, it would not be necessary, etc. But because we do see it happening sometimes, it means They "didn't know", or didn't always know everything, etc.

 

[Erik William]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.


Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

This is a great post! I would agree 100% that free will does not exist within the world. When our mind is attached to the world of choices, it should rather be called "imprisoned will" for it then that all our seeming "choices" are dictated by the past. They certainly SEEM like real choices, but that's the trick of the deceiver in our mind: making us think that we can be happy by have more choices in the world, when in truth we can only be happy by aligning our mind with Christ's and saying to God "not mine, but Thy Will be done." When we say that, or when we "bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves" as you correctly linked with Matthew 6:6, only then do we have a Free Will.

The problem is that we define free will as choice. But so long as we're tempted by the deceiver, we're enslaved. We're not free at all. True freedom is no longer being a slave to the deceiver's lies, and that experience only exists when we put God above all else.

So to summarize, there's Free Will and there's "imprisoned will". Imprisoned will is what we're experiencing when think we can make "free" choices in this world, but which are really just based on past programming and which, as Panther said in the post, is all predetermined. No freedom there at all.

Free will actually has nothing to do with choice. We could say that it's the ability to choose between God and the deceiver, and that can be a helpful stepping stone from the believe in worldly choices. But ultimately, the will is not truly free until it fully surrenders to God's Love. Only then does it truly experience freedom, for only then has it thrown off the shackles of self-doubt and accepted it's true Calling to be, as Saint Frances said, an "instrument for God's Peace".

Blessings to you all.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Of course, He knows beforehand what will happen. That does not mean he orchestrated it.

 

[Neogaia777]

Of course, He knows beforehand what will happen. That does not mean he orchestrated it.

That is a play on words, and as it refers to God, it would mean He did not plan or make or create, etc.

Look up the definition of the word "orchestrate" and some of it's synonyms/antonyms on the web, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Joseph G]

That is a play on words, and as it refers to God, it would mean He did not plan or make or create, etc.

Look up the definition of the word "orchestrate" and some of it's synonyms/antonyms on the web, etc.

God Bless.

Agreed. I've often thought of God as the Greatest of all Composers and Conductors. He created and wrote the music, invented the instruments, taught us all how to play in unison, and leads with His baton.

Imagine Him gesturing for us to begin and what would occur if we sat motionless and limp and unwilling to play - contending that we play no part in performing His divine symphony?

Come on, we all know better deep inside. If we played no part by our response to Him, then there would have been no need for Him to create us at all.

He did create us - for the purpose of fellowshipping with Him. Laying our eternal destiny on His shoulders alone will not excuse a lack of response from us.

Hebrews 3:7-9 NIV

"So, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness, where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did."

God bless us all!

biblegateway.com

 

[Neogaia777]

Agreed. I've often thought of God as the Greatest of all Composers and Conductors. He created and wrote the music, invented the instruments, taught us all how to play in unison, and leads with His baton.

Imagine Him gesturing for us to begin and what would occur if we sat motionless and limp and unwilling to play - contending that we play no part in performing His divine symphony?

Come on, we all know better deep inside. If we played no part by our response to Him, then there would have been no need for Him to create us at all.

He did create us - for the purpose of fellowshipping with Him. Laying our eternal destiny on His shoulders alone will not excuse a lack of response from us.

Hebrews 3:7-9 NIV

"So, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness, where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did."

God bless us all!

biblegateway.com

We all must act with our will, and use our will for what is good and right, or at least, we must try to anyway, etc, even if that will, and what we will choose in that regard, is already fully known by God, etc.

Because from our perspective, we don't know, for any of us, etc. So that means we have to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, including ourselves, in what they/you/me/we could always change or do differently at any time always, etc.

Even if God already knows, etc.

God Bless.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

That is a play on words, and as it refers to God, it would mean He did not plan or make or create, etc.

Look up the definition of the word "orchestrate" and some of it's synonyms/antonyms on the web, etc.

God Bless.

He is sovereign and can do anything, limited only by His nature and His own Words. That does not mean everything that happens is His work. There are things that happen that state He did not do them, and it was not His will. He knew they were going to happen, and He was watching when they did happen. Watching something happen and not preventing it is not the same as orchestration or even validation. He could prevent it, but for whatever reason, He did/does not.

 

[Neogaia777]

He is sovereign and can do anything, limited only by His nature and His own Words. That does not mean everything that happens is His work. There are things that happen that state He did not do them, and it was not His will. He knew they were going to happen, and He was watching when they did happen. Watching something happen and not preventing it is not the same as orchestration or even validation. He could prevent it, but for whatever reason, He did/does not.

God the Spirit experienced a lot of heartache for a while, and suffered a lot for a while, due to man's choices and choosings, that He could not see past sometimes, and could not control a lot of the time, etc. But it wasn't for a lack of trying though, etc. And that's where a lot of the suffering and heartache/heartbreak comes in, etc.

Mankind was just created/born disobedient/unwise, and it just took Him a little while to fully know/fully realize that fully, etc.

But the offenses were finally finished once and for all for Him in and with Jesus Christ, etc.

And after that, He got a new name, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Panthers]

This is a great post! I would agree 100% that free will does not exist within the world. When our mind is attached to the world of choices, it should rather be called "imprisoned will" for it then that all our seeming "choices" are dictated by the past. They certainly SEEM like real choices, but that's the trick of the deceiver in our mind: making us think that we can be happy by have more choices in the world, when in truth we can only be happy by aligning our mind with Christ's and saying to God "not mine, but Thy Will be done." When we say that, or when we "bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves" as you correctly linked with Matthew 6:6, only then do we have a Free Will.

The problem is that we define free will as choice. But so long as we're tempted by the deceiver, we're enslaved. We're not free at all. True freedom is no longer being a slave to the deceiver's lies, and that experience only exists when we put God above all else.

So to summarize, there's Free Will and there's "imprisoned will". Imprisoned will is what we're experiencing when think we can make "free" choices in this world, but which are really just based on past programming and which, as Panther said in the post, is all predetermined. No freedom there at all.

Free will actually has nothing to do with choice. We could say that it's the ability to choose between God and the deceiver, and that can be a helpful stepping stone from the believe in worldly choices. But ultimately, the will is not truly free until it fully surrenders to God's Love. Only then does it truly experience freedom, for only then has it thrown off the shackles of self-doubt and accepted it's true Calling to be, as Saint Frances said, an "instrument for God's Peace".

Blessings to you all.

Exactly, we need to change nothing, but understand the liar living inside of us .
Once identified, there is a deep peace feeling starting from the feet and gradually working up.
John 13:12

 

[Panthers]

Of course, He knows beforehand what will happen. That does not mean he orchestrated it.