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There is no Free Will PERIOD

HarleyER

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Total depravity is a false doctrine and was refuted 1300 years before Calvin was even born in 170AD by Iranaeus in his refutation of Gnosticism.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedienceand the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the gloryof God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the causeof imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all goodthings with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all goodthings, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternaldarkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the causeof [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
You forgot about Augustine and his Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints:

Once Augustine understood about Predestination, he asked for all his books to be recalled and burned. The reason being is that the idea of free will chanllenges the sovereignty and God's divine will.

Augustine's views on the sovereignty of God and Predestination was accepted at the Council of Orange. Pelagius views on Free Will was rejected as heresy. Cassian, a student of Pelegius, offered a second version of Pelagius view. Around 600AD some Pope decided to let both Augustine's and Cassian's view to coexist until the 1600 when the Council of Trent rejected Augustine's view and accepted Cassian's view.

Free will is nothing more than a water down version of Pelagius view, taken from the Catholic Church.

But we don't need to look at history to prove there is no such thing as "free will". If you really, really believe that man can make a choice and live for God, then for the next week always choose not to sin. It's that simple. Don't sin since you feel that everything is based upon choice. Let me know how that goes.
 
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Rose_bud

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Paul did not think so...

Gal 1:15 But when He who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.​

Now if God had set Paul "apart" before He was born, how on earth could it have been Paul's choice?

As far as the Damascus Road is concerned, I don't recall Jesus asking Paul, "Do you want to follow me?" Instead Christ issues a command to Paul. There was no decision made.

Acts 9:4b...“Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told to you what you must do.” 7 The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.​

It is also interesting that this was directed ONLY to Paul. The men around him heard the voice but saw no one. Don't you think that the vision would be for everyone to make the choice?
:wave:
Hey HarleyER
IMO, Paul had no choice in being born into the chosen nation of Israel or as a Benjamite, with all its heritage. He most likely had a choice in becoming a Pharisee, but his heritage probably shaped this decision.
However, he did have a choice in rejecting or accepting Jesus as the Messiah. As we know, he initially resisted, like an ox kicking against the goads, futilely opposing the Spirit of God. As Stephen said, as your fathers resisted the Spirit, so do you. Paul being witness to the speech and the actions that followed. Thankfully, he surrendered to Gods overwhelming power, drawing him into the light, ironically through a blinding encounter first. God remains sovereign, and His grace overcomes all our stubborn attempts to refuse Him. Nonetheless, in His wisdom, He respects our decisions to either pledge allegiance to Him or not, doing so with immense long-suffering and patience.
 
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Clare73

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God's glory can be seen in creation.
Agreed. . .
Moses saw God's glory and Isaiah and Ezekiel had visions. God revealed himself to Job, who replied that he had "spoken of things that he did not understand."
Are you saying that the only way God could show his glory, and goodness, was to cause people to sin so that he could, later, rescue them from it?
If you read about someone who went into a burning building to rescue people, was able to save several children, though a few also died, you might very well say how brave she had been. Supposing you later learned that she had started the fire in the first place?
Or what of a man who was HIV positive, slept with a woman, made her pregnant and their child was later born with the illness? What if he later cured HIV - using cells that he had taken from his own sick child?
Hero, or murderer; saviour or criminal?
Read Genesis. Adam and Eve, Cain, Sodom and Gomorrah, the people of Noah's day were all punished for their sin. Why would God create people, plan that they should sin against him and then punish them for doing what he wanted, and created, them to do?
That doesn't show God's glory. That, to me, shows that God is unfair.
What does the word of God show in Ro 9:11-24?

"Before Rebekah's twins were born or had done anything good or bad, she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' (Ge 25:23)
. . .It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
. . .Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me, 'Then why does God blame us? For who resists his will?'
But, who are you , O man, to talk back to God?
'Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" (Isa 29:16, 45:9)'
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use (human waste)?
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--who prepared themselves for destruction?
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy--whom he prepared in advance for glory---even
us. . .?

Ask God in prayer to work his understanding in your heart instead of your own on the matter.
 
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Strong in Him

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What does the word of God show in Ro 9:11-24?

"Before Rebekah's twins were born or had done anything good or bad, she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' (Ge 25:23)
Yes - a child can't have 2 biological fathers and the chosen line, from which David and Jesus would come, was to be through Judah; Jacob's son, Isaac's grandson.

. . .It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Yes, it's all from God; not our good works.
. . .Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy,
He wants to have mercy on everyone because he is merciful, Nehemiah 9:31, 2 Peter 3:9, Luke 6:36.

and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
He doesn't want to harden people - Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God did.
If people keep rejecting God and quenching his Spirit there will come a time when they will be unable to respond to him.

One of you will say to me, 'Then why does God blame us? For who resists his will?'
But, who are you , O man, to talk back to God?
'Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" (Isa 29:16, 45:9)'
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use (human waste)?
Yes, God makes us all for different purposes.
He makes, and calls, some to be pastors, others to be plumbers. Some will have a higher calling with greater responsibilities than others. Some will be highly educated, others will work with their hands.
But this is about calling - as it was with Jacob and Esau - not character.
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--who prepared themselves for destruction?
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy--whom he prepared in advance for glory---even
us. . .?
You realise that this whole passage is Paul talking to Jews who believed that they, alone, were God's people and would always be his people due to their relation to Abraham? All through the OT the Israelites believed they were above punishment because they were God's special people. They looked forward to "the day of the Lord" because then they would be vindicated and rewarded while everyone who had been outside of Israel and mocked and opposed them in some way, would receive what they deserved.
Paul is saying that Israel had a privileged background - they had the patriarchs, the law, the prophets and the promises of God. Yet they had rejected Christ; God's chosen one. And would/could be cut off from the vine so that the Gentiles could be grafted in, Romans 11:11-24, John 15:1.

None of this says that God made people sin so that he could save them from that sin.
You haven't answered the questions of my previous post; is a person who rescues others from a house fire which they, themselves, started, good or evil? What about someone who deliberately infects someone with an illness and later uses them to find a cure for that illness? Would you poison your child with drugs so that you could make them ill, cure them and allow everyone to say how great you were for doing so?
If you wouldn't treat your child - your flesh and blood - like that, how can you believe that of God? Or say that the God who IS love and who is perfect, is less loving than you are?

Ask God in prayer to work his understanding in your heart instead of your own on the matter.

You want me to ask God to show me that he has favourites, that he made people sin just so that he could save them and is less loving than the Bible says he is?
I wouldn't pray such a prayer.
 
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Clare73

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Yes - a child can't have 2 biological fathers and the chosen line, from which David and Jesus would come, was to be through Judah; Jacob's son, Isaac's grandson.
Yes, it's all from God; not our good works.
He wants to have mercy on everyone because he is merciful, Nehemiah 9:31, 2 Peter 3:9, Luke 6:36.
He doesn't want to harden people - Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God did.
If people keep rejecting God and quenching his Spirit there will come a time when they will be unable to respond to him.
Yes, God makes us all for different purposes.
He makes, and calls, some to be pastors, others to be plumbers. Some will have a higher calling with greater responsibilities than others. Some will be highly educated, others will work with their hands.
But this is about calling - as it was with Jacob and Esau - not character.
Ro 9:11-24 is about God's sovereign (Ro 9:11-12) choice in election, as demonstrated in his sovereign choice of Jacob, based on nothing but his sovereign (unaccountable) choice to do so.
You realise that this whole passage is Paul talking to Jews
And you know this, how?

The recipients of the letter were the people of the church at Rome (1:7), who were predominantly Gentiles, while Jews did make up a substantial minority of the congregation (4:1, chps 9-11).
who believed that they, alone, were God's people and would always be his people due to their relation to Abraham?
The Jews in the Gentile church of Rome were Christians.

Paul wrote the letter to present the whole system of salvation to a church that had not received the teaching of an apostle before, where
he explained the relationship between Jew and Gentile in God's over-all plan of redemption. It seems the Jewish Christians were being rejected by the larger Gentile group in the church (14:1) because the Jewish believers still felt constrained to observe dietary laws and sacred days (14:2-6).
You want me to ask God to show me that he has favourites, that he made people sin just so that he could save them and is less loving than the Bible says he is?
Read that misrepresentation again. . .misrepresentation is not a "good look."

I want you to ask God to show you his understanding of it.
I wouldn't pray such a prayer.
You desire an understanding other than God's?
 
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Neogaia777

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Feelings are thoughts. If thoughts are predestined then so are feelings which means that people are only executing what they are programmed to do by God. If He dictates everything thru predestination then we’re exactly like a computer executing its program being incapable of deviating from what God has predestined us to do. That’s the problem with your interpretation of predestination. With my interpretation God isn’t controlling people so love and disobedience are the result of our choice making us responsible for our actions and at the same time giving value to our affection towards God.
Truth is all that should matter here, not our own interpretations or what we would want to be true based on our either liking it, or elses not liking it, etc.

God Bless.
 
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Neogaia777

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But it is God the Father making his appeal through us. I know you do not care about the analogy of puppets, but that is precisely what you are proposing. God, for whatever reason, decided to amuse himself with a scripted play that included children being raped and humans torturing, brutalizing, and killing one another. God, the creator of evil? I think not. I think this is a perverse distortion of God, just another of the devil's lies about Him.
That's because your analogies simply aren't true of a God like this.

For some reason evil temporarily was necessary, etc, and this God knew that from the very beginning or from before He ever even made anything, etc. I have my theories about those reasons, but will talk about that more later, or at another time, etc.

So it had to be made with evil in it or a part of it, etc, and so, that's the way He made it, etc. But He never steps in somewhere in-between and makes or causes evil to happen, etc. But He did see all the evil that would happen in it before He ever even made it, and made it that way anyway, etc. But this was at or from the beginning, and He does not step in somewhere in the middle or somewhere in-between and cause evil to happen, etc. But He just made it with evil in it, and saw every single thing (evil) that would all happen in all of it long before He ever even made it, and then set it in motion or made it all to happen that way anyway, etc.

And I'll tell you about what I think might be His reasons for doing this or making it this way or the "why" of this at another time, ok.

It was not just all simply for His "amusement", but is for a goal and purpose and aim much, much higher and greater, and ultimately much, much better than that, etc.

God Bless.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Paul did not think so...

Gal 1:15 But when He who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.​

Now if God had set Paul "apart" before He was born, how on earth could it have been Paul's choice?

As far as the Damascus Road is concerned, I don't recall Jesus asking Paul, "Do you want to follow me?" Instead Christ issues a command to Paul. There was no decision made.

Acts 9:4b...“Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told to you what you must do.” 7 The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.​

It is also interesting that this was directed ONLY to Paul. The men around him heard the voice but saw no one. Don't you think that the vision would be for everyone to make the choice?
So when Jesus asked “why are you persecuting Me” Paul’s reply should’ve been “because you’re the One controlling me”?

Obviously the vision was not for everyone.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Truth is all that should matter here, not our own interpretations or what we would want to be true based on our either liking it, or elses not liking it, etc.

God Bless.
We can go to the scriptures if you want.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why are these people refusing to repent if God’s kindness is leading them to repentance?

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why did Jesus give Jezebel time to repent?

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Is Jesus trying to save these people?

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why is the outcome of whether or not the tree will bear fruit still uncertain despite Jesus’ efforts to give special attention to the tree to save it?
 
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Neogaia777

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We can go to the scriptures if you want.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why are these people refusing to repent if God’s kindness is leading them to repentance?

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why did Jesus give Jezebel time to repent?

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Is Jesus trying to save these people?

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why is the outcome of whether or not the tree will bear fruit still uncertain despite Jesus’ efforts to give special attention to the tree to save it?
All those who do not or may not know everything completely has to try and give everyone else the benefit of the doubt that they can be saved still, etc. But it is only due to not knowing absolutely everything completely, etc.

Jesus didn't/doesn't know if those people can be absolutely saved or not completely, which is why he still tries to save them still, etc.

I know that may come as a shock to some, but it is scriptural that there is/are some things Jesus didn't know, or doesn't know 100% completely, etc.
 
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HarleyER

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:wave:
Hey HarleyER
IMO, Paul had no choice in being born into the chosen nation of Israel or as a Benjamite, with all its heritage. He most likely had a choice in becoming a Pharisee, but his heritage probably shaped this decision.
However, he did have a choice in rejecting or accepting Jesus as the Messiah. As we know, he initially resisted, like an ox kicking against the goads, futilely opposing the Spirit of God. As Stephen said, as your fathers resisted the Spirit, so do you. Paul being witness to the speech and the actions that followed. Thankfully, he surrendered to Gods overwhelming power, drawing him into the light, ironically through a blinding encounter first. God remains sovereign, and His grace overcomes all our stubborn attempts to refuse Him. Nonetheless, in His wisdom, He respects our decisions to either pledge allegiance to Him or not, doing so with immense long-suffering and patience.
Hi Rose_Bud

Notice carefully what Paul states:

Gal 1:15 But when He who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,​
On the one hand, I can understand your interpretation of thinking that Paul had been set apart to be of the Jewish nation. But Paul goes on to say that God, through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son. And the reason God was pleased to do so is so that Paul would preach His gospel to the Gentile. God didn't reveal Himself to anyone else on the Damacus Road that we're aware of. Only to Paul. In Galatians we see that God had a specific purpose for Paul and directly saved him for this purpose. This then goes back to the first part "But when He...", that God had set Paul apart for this specific task.

So just when did God set Paul apart to reveal His Son to him? It was before the foundation of the world when it was determined that Christ would die for our sins.

1 Peter 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you​

David says exactly the same thing in Psalm 22 about his salvation:

9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;​
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.​
10 I was cast upon You from birth;​
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.

God was David's God before he was even born.

We are saved by the grace of God, and this is not of yourself. Notice what John states:

John1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born,​

1) not of blood,​
2) nor of the will of the flesh,​
3) nor of the will of a man, (man's free choice)​

but of God.​

It's just the way it is. That is why when you witness to one person you get nothing but a cold shoulder. When you witness to someone else, the light bulb comes on and they are brought to repentence. It is simply the way the Spirit moves. Why God works like this I don't know. It is part of His mysterious will.

Just one more note. Some people think this is view of God is TOTALLY unfair of God. Everyone should have a choice. Well, not everyone does. People on islands, in distant lands, and even your next door neighbor might never heard the gospel or simply don't care to hear the gospel.

The real truth of the matter is that none of us deserves to be saved. We are all sinners and deserve Hell. That God saves a remnant shows to us that 1) God is merciful, and 2) God is gracious. We should thank and praise God that we have been rescued out of the bondage of sin. We shouldn't be questioning, "Why not Mary or Joe?"
 
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HarleyER

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So when Jesus asked “why are you persecuting Me” Paul’s reply should’ve been “because you’re the One controlling me”?

Obviously the vision was not for everyone.
This comes up all to frequently; "I'm not God's robot?" in the free will debate.

Fact of the matter is that I wish that I could be God's robot. I wish that the Holy Spirit would seize my mind and heart, and everything that I did was according to God's will. Then I would be walking as Christ walked. Sadly, this is not how it works. God works His Will through our imperfections.

Jonah wanted to go to Tarish. God want Jonah in Nineveh. Guess who won? Jonah, in his rebellion, brought the sailors on the ship to repentence as well as the city of Nineveh.

As far as the "vision" not being for everyone, doesn't it seem a bit odd that God would not want those people to make the same choice as Paul? This isn't how salvation works. The Spirit moves here and there. Why we don't know but it isn't because God liked Paul better then the rest in his group. God shows no partiality. We are all sinners deserving of Hell. God just signal out Paul for a specific purpose just like He did Samson according to His Will.
 
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Strong in Him

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And you know this, how?
I've read it.
I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.
He is concerned about the Jews.
The recipients of the letter were the people of the church at Rome (1:7), who were predominantly Gentiles, while Jews did make up a substantial minority of the congregation (4:1, chps 9-11).

The Jews in the Gentile church of Rome were Christians.
They were Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah; they didn't stop being Jewish when they believed - and still don't.
They seemed to be asking how Jews who didn't believe fitted into God's plan - were they still his people because of Abraham? Had God chosen somebody else?

Paul wrote the letter to present the whole system of salvation to a church that had not received the teaching of an apostle before,
Paul wrote a letter to the church at Rome before he had visited them.
There is nothing to say that no Apostle had yet been to Rome - you've just said that they were Christians, so they had heard the Gospel from someone.
Read that misrepresentation again. . .misrepresentation is not a "good look."
With respect then, I'd say please will you stop misrepresenting our God of love and mercy by claiming that he makes people sin - or plans that they will - so that he can show everyone his glory by rescuing them.
I want you to ask God to show you his understanding of it.
So if I come back here in a few days and say "I've asked God and he said ...." and then repeat what |I've just written, you'll believe me?
 
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BNR32FAN

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You forgot about Augustine and his Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints:

Once Augustine understood about Predestination, he asked for all his books to be recalled and burned. The reason being is that the idea of free will chanllenges the sovereignty and God's divine will.

Augustine's views on the sovereignty of God and Predestination was accepted at the Council of Orange. Pelagius views on Free Will was rejected as heresy. Cassian, a student of Pelegius, offered a second version of Pelagius view. Around 600AD some Pope decided to let both Augustine's and Cassian's view to coexist until the 1600 when the Council of Trent rejected Augustine's view and accepted Cassian's view.

Free will is nothing more than a water down version of Pelagius view, taken from the Catholic Church.

But we don't need to look at history to prove there is no such thing as "free will". If you really, really believe that man can make a choice and live for God, then for the next week always choose not to sin. It's that simple. Don't sin since you feel that everything is based upon choice. Let me know how that goes.
I really don’t know a whole lot about Augustine’s work because I didn’t study it very much. The reason being is that he retracted a lot of his own work and it’s really hard to find that piece of literature. Furthermore I would suggest looking to the earliest writings of the church to find evidence of how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted, not fourth century writings.
 
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BNR32FAN

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All those who do not or may not know everything completely has to try and give everyone else the benefit of the doubt that they can be saved still, etc. But it is only due to not knowing absolutely everything completely, etc.

Jesus didn't/doesn't know if those people can be absolutely saved or not completely, which is why he still tries to save them still, etc.

I know that may come as a shock to some, but it is scriptural that there is/are some things Jesus didn't know, or doesn't know 100% completely, etc.
This is nonsense
 
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Clare73

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I've read it.

He is concerned about the Jews.
He is stating his love and grief for the Jews before he goes into God's condemnation and cutting off of them because of their rejection of Christ (Ro 11:16-23), just as Christ wept over Jerusalem because of its coming destruction due to the same unbelief in him.
They were Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah; they didn't stop being Jewish when they believed - and still don't.
They seemed to be asking how Jews who didn't believe fitted into God's plan - were they still his people because of Abraham? Had God chosen somebody else?

Paul wrote a letter to the church at Rome before he had visited them.
There is nothing to say that no Apostle had yet been to Rome
Is there any historical or Biblical evidence that an apostle had been to Rome?
- you've just said that they were Christians, so they had heard the Gospel from someone.
With respect then, I'd say please will you stop misrepresenting our God of love and mercy by claiming that he makes people sin - or plans that they will - so that he can show everyone his glory by rescuing them.
So if I come back here in a few days and say "I've asked God and he said ...." and then repeat what |I've just written, you'll believe me?
 
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Neogaia777

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All those who do not or may not know everything completely has to try and give everyone else the benefit of the doubt that they can be saved still, etc. But it is only due to not knowing absolutely everything completely, etc.

Jesus didn't/doesn't know if those people can be absolutely saved or not completely, which is why he still tries to save them still, etc.

I know that may come as a shock to some, but it is scriptural that there is/are some things Jesus didn't know, or doesn't know 100% completely, etc.
God the Heavenly Father is the only One who always knew all from the very beginning 100% completely. And God in the OT and Jesus didn't always know absolutely everything 100% completely, etc.

They knew fully knew about all this determinism or predeterminism/predestination/predetermining from or by the Father 100% completely, and knew that even They were a part of that 100% completely, and those Two knew "nearly everything", or a lot about most things, etc, but there was also some restrictions that God the Heavenly Father was putting on them both on what They could know about absolutely everything 100% completely.

Like knowing the exact times and seasons of everything, and of who all could be saved completely. These things were not in their complete knowing or ability to know always for 100% sure completely, etc. And this was so They could still be who They are 100% completely, etc, and so that They would still do what They needed to do, and would still try to save all 100% completely, etc.

If They would have had full knowledge of all, then They would not be able to be who They are, or would not do what They needed to do, or would always try to do, 100% completely, etc.

God Bless.
 
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rturner76

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There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.


Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

This verse indicates that we come to repentance, we are not forced into repentance

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

This verse directly says that we can choose to do the will of God. So I don't know which Bible you are reading but the one that I read says we have free will. The concept of predestination didn't come along until a lawyer dreamed it up 1500 years after Christ walked the Earth. I think it's better to believe what the followers of the living Christ said rather than a French lawyer.

From the Old Testament Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.

This verse directly says that we have the choice to serve God or not. Are you sure that you are getting your information from the Holy Bible?

But wait, there's more.....

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

There are a large number of Bible verses that confirm our gift of free will. Turn away from false teaching and embrace the truth.
 
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Neogaia777

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2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

This verse indicates that we come to repentance, we are not forced into repentance

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

This verse directly says that we can choose to do the will of God. So I don't know which Bible you are reading but the one that I read says we have free will. The concept of predestination didn't come along until a lawyer dreamed it up 1500 years after Christ walked the Earth. I think it's better to believe what the followers of the living Christ said rather than a French lawyer.

From the Old Testament Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.

This verse directly says that we have the choice to serve God or not. Are you sure that you are getting your information from the Holy Bible?

But wait, there's more.....

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

There are a large number of Bible verses that confirm our gift of free will. Turn away from false teaching and embrace the truth.
Because there were some things God in the OT and Jesus didn't know, like who or how many specifically could be saved.

Matthew 19:25–26 (NKJV): "When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved? But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Matthew 24:36 (NKJV): “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, (nor the Son) but My Father only."

Acts 1:7 (NKJV): "And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority."

John 14:28 (NKJV): "You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I (am)."
 
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