There Are a Thousand Gods. Is It Impossible To Make Choices?

[eleos1954]

See... and here we are just at the point of contention.
He doesn't knock. He wouldn't need to "kick it in". A knock would suffice... but he doesn't. All he does is sending people like you.

See... and here you are, demanding that my sister conforms to your rules! How dare you! She doesn't force you to be her friend.
Perhaps she already tried to be friends with you... and you ignored her. Would you know? How would you know? Before my post... you didn't even know of my sister.

But maybe this will make you consider this: yes, if she would like to be friends, it would be reasonable for her to make the first step. To come to you. To introduce herself to you.
She didn't, I know that.

So... maybe you see my point now?

I'll add you to the list. Don't be disappointed if your prayers will do as much as those of all the other people.

I'm not demanding anything ... I offered friendship. You seem to have a very bitter and negative attitude in general. It is true one can not have a friendship if they don't know someone exits ... so it is with the Lord. If one doesn't acknowledge He exits how does one expect to have a relationship with Him?

Now through you .... I know your sister exists and I offer friendship ... perhaps you could introduce us. If not ... ok ... then don't give me grief about it.

The very fact you choose to participate in a Christian Forum you are being exposed to much about the Lord ... the Lord does knock on peoples doors using other people, uses other means as well. We (Christians) are called to spread the Gospel ... that's what we are called to do. Everyone has a void in their heart and it is not filled unless they receive the Lord. Everyone at some point asks themselves ... is there something more, something better, something different? Well .. yes ... there is ;o)

I am never disappointed about my prayers .... some prayers are answered ... some not ... I trust in the Lord as He knows all things and is just in what He does.

I do however experience disappointment with people at times ... but even so ... I pray from them.

May the Lord soften your heart.

 

[Lost4words]

No there isn't. No they don't.

There. That was easy.

Typical answer from you.

Why are you on a Christian forum if you dont believe in God?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Why are you on a Christian forum if you dont believe in God?

Typical question. If you don't like it, go to the Christians Only sub-section of this board.

 

[Freodin]

I'm not demanding anything ... I offered friendship.

That was aimed at a common Christian response when I ask for... something more that "here's the Gospel, God is real, Jesus loves you kthxbye."
It is usually answered with "how dare you demand that God acts by your rules"?

You seem to have a very bitter and negative attitude in general.

Nope, just some general frustration at the inability of Christians to even acknowledge other's points.

It is true one can not have a friendship if they don't know someone exits ... so it is with the Lord. If one doesn't acknowledge He exits how does one expect to have a relationship with Him?

Yes, that is a problem. But not one that "the Lord" could not solve, easily. But he doesn't.

Now through you .... I know your sister exists and I offer friendship ... perhaps you could introduce us. If not ... ok ... then don't give me grief about it.

Humans make mistakes. Humans err. And sometimes, human make deliberate mistakes for certain specific reasons.
Sorry, but you do not know my sister exists. You have been told that my sister exists. In that case, you have been deliberately misled. I do not have a sister. My only sibling was an older brother, who died four years ago.
But that did not keep you from praying for her, or offering her your friendship. It seems that the existence of my sister is not required for that.

I hope you will forgive me for misleading you... but I also hope you understood my point: for a relationship to exist, there has to be more than say-so.

You wrote above: One can not have friendship if they don't know someone exists. Well, I don't know that God exists. I don't believe that God exists. There is nothing I can do to change that.
That's my side. I am a human. Limited, fallible. God, on the other hand, is asserted to be infallibe. Perfect. It would be quite easy for him to give me that spark, that "seed" as Christians like to call it, that I, personally, individually, would need to make me "know him".

But I don't get it. There is no one knocking.
Instead I get people like you. Or people not like you... who just tell me basically the same stuff as you, just of a different kind.
And I... the fallible, limited human, am told to be the one to decide. Decide which "God" is the real one. Yeah... what could go wrong with that.

The very fact you choose to participate in a Christian Forum you are being exposed to much about the Lord ... the Lord does knock on peoples doors using other people, uses other means as well. We (Christians) are called to spread the Gospel ... that's what we are called to do.

That is just a fine wrapping to say: "Humans talk about religion... God is silent".
And you might notice that this is not what the bible verse said. It does not say: "I send my human minions to knock on your door, and they will be the one who eat dinner with you, relating my wisdom to you."
God isn't said to have send a human to Paul, "spreading the Gospel" to him. No, he appeared personally. Undeniably. Even if Paul's lowly servants did not get to join in.

Everyone has a void in their heart and it is not filled unless they receive the Lord. Everyone at some point asks themselves ... is there something more, something better, something different? Well .. yes ... there is ;o)

Nope. Sorry. But as long as you are making definitive statements about other people's innermost feelings and desires, you will not reach them, at all.

As I said, I have been here on this forum for almost twenty years. Not because I am having a void to be filled by God. Just because I want to understand people. And see why I don't understand people. I have learned a lot in these last twenty years... even a lot about me.

One of these things - I have mentioned it before, long before you joined here - is that I do not have a "God-shaped hole" in my heart, as was the expression used back then. And I opened up a very intimate personal episode from my life to demonstrate that.
So, I know myself quite well. I am not ashamed to open up. And you are wrong.
How should I trust anything you say about relationships with deities, when you get something so very close and intimate to myself wrong?

I am never disappointed about my prayers .... some prayers are answered ... some not ... I trust in the Lord as He knows all things and is just in what He does.

I have found, by repeated experience, that people always get disappointed by the prayers I ask them to pray for me.

I do however experience disappointment with people at times ... but even so ... I pray from them.

Which is a nice way of saying that you and God talk about them... but not with them.
Even in the face of disagreement, I have always found it better to talk with people, to people... rather than at and about people.

May the Lord soften your heart.

Thank you. I think I should feel insulted by the implication... but it's quite difficult to insult me.

 

[Freodin]

Why are you on a Christian forum if you dont believe in God?

Because lots of people tell me I should. But seem at a lack to tell me how to do it.

Oh, and also, some Christians say the most amusing stuff. Take a peak at some of the Flat Earth discussions... absolutely hillarious.

Personally, I found this forum via Kent Hovind. That was at some point around the millenium, when I first encountered "The Internet"... and stumbled about Young Earth Creationists. I had engaged with Christians and other religions before, for years... had known about folks like them, certain groups who adhered to such a worldview - JWs, for example. But I had never closely encountered the things they really believed... and the ways they defended their beliefs.

I was baffled. I was incredulous that people really really truly believed this stuff, and used these horrid arguments for it.
Back then, Kent Hovind used to link to this site as "his" discussion forum... another one of his... not quite correct statements. Erwin, the owner back then, had nothing to do with Hovind.

But I found some interesting people here... some interesting discussions... and I stayed. Through the ups and downs. And as long as this forum doesn't come to a point where it stops admitting atheists for good... I will stay. To engage with people like you. To try to learn about people like you, and perhaps to teach people like you something about how atheists really tick.

 

[Lost4words]

Because lots of people tell me I should. But seem at a lack to tell me how to do it.

Oh, and also, some Christians say the most amusing stuff. Take a peak at some of the Flat Earth discussions... absolutely hillarious.

Personally, I found this forum via Kent Hovind. That was at some point around the millenium, when I first encountered "The Internet"... and stumbled about Young Earth Creationists. I had engaged with Christians and other religions before, for years... had known about folks like them, certain groups who adhered to such a worldview - JWs, for example. But I had never closely encountered the things they really believed... and the ways they defended their beliefs.

I was baffled. I was incredulous that people really really truly believed this stuff, and used these horrid arguments for it.
Back then, Kent Hovind used to link to this site as "his" discussion forum... another one of his... not quite correct statements. Erwin, the owner back then, had nothing to do with Hovind.

But I found some interesting people here... some interesting discussions... and I stayed. Through the ups and downs. And as long as this forum doesn't come to a point where it stops admitting atheists for good... I will stay. To engage with people like you. To try to learn about people like you, and perhaps to teach people like you something about how atheists really tick.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

 

[Freodin]

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Strange how nobody ever considers himself to be the one on the easy way, isn't it? It's always the others, while oneself is always part of those going for the narrow gate.

Except of course when they need to point out how huge the number of Christians is, to make a point towards atheists... then suddenly everyone who claims to be Christians is part of the in-group.

 

[Kaon]

According to Dr Michael Shermer, there are a thousand gods around*. And many more non-theistic religions.
Here is an overview of the important ones: BBC - Religion: Religions
Atheists commonly say that it makes no sense to believe that one religion has it right and all the others fail in some sort.
But why don't you take into account those deist religions
- that are still active as opposed to Germanic religions or the Nordic ones...
- that promise an afterlife.
... and make a choice according to what they say?


Thomas

*see minute 7:40 of the video posted here LINK.

Yes, there are thousands of gods, hundreds of angels, some principalities, a few powers and a handful of archons. And, then there is one "god" masquerading as the most high - an entity that was born from ignorance/darkness. The way you make sure you follow the right "god" is to bypass all of those created entities and find the One that isn't created. But, of course that Entity isn't a god... it is more than a god and unique in its identity, power and existence.

Agnosticism is a step in finding the Truth: one would have to be completely had not to question every single thing - being incredulous of the very things society considers axiomatic. But, at some point a decision has to be made and the step beyond agnosticism must be made; as the OP sort of suggests, "there are too many gods" for someone to be agnostic.

With enough Providence, one may be able to learn the Truth. Otherwise, ignorance befalls us.

 

[Lost4words]

Strange how nobody ever considers himself to be the one on the easy way, isn't it? It's always the others, while oneself is always part of those going for the narrow gate.

Except of course when they need to point out how huge the number of Christians is, to make a point towards atheists... then suddenly everyone who claims to be Christians is part of the in-group.

God bless you my friend

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, there are thousands of gods, hundreds of angels, some principalities, a few powers and a handful of archons. And, then there is one "god" masquerading as the most high - an entity that was born from ignorance/darkness. The way you make sure you follow the right "god" is to bypass all of those created entities and find the One that isn't created. But, of course that Entity isn't a god... it is more than a god and unique in its identity, power and existence.

Agnosticism is a step in finding the Truth: one would have to be completely had not to question every single thing - being incredulous of the very things society considers axiomatic. But, at some point a decision has to be made and the step beyond agnosticism must be made; as the OP sort of suggests, "there are too many gods" for someone to be agnostic.

With enough Providence, one may be able to learn the Truth. Otherwise, ignorance befalls us.

The number of god in existence tells us that man tends to invent gods. That is not evidence for a God. As the saying goes, they cannot all be right, but they can all be wrong.

 

[ChetSinger]

According to Dr Michael Shermer, there are a thousand gods around*. And many more non-theistic religions.

And this is exactly what we should expect if the Bible is true:

Remember the days of old;
consider the years of many generations;
ask your father, and he will show you,
your elders, and they will tell you.

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.

But the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage. - Deut 32:7-9

This speaks of the age that began with the human rebellion at Babel and ended with Christ's resurrection, during which God installed an angelic layer of middle management between himself and the human race. These angels became corrupt and in Psalm 82 God reads them the riot act and says they will die like men do.

During this time all nations except Israel were ruled by beings who were spirits, yet not God. They're still here, but when Jesus rose from the dead God took away their authority over us and gave it to Jesus.

So of course the ancients developed religious beliefs regarding various spirits and deities: they were stuck living it.

There's more about that history here: https://www.amazon.com/Supernatural-Bible-Teaches-Unseen-Matters/dp/1577995589/ref=sr_1_7?crid=37XT9YKQWNTW0&dchild=1&keywords=michael+heiser&qid=1590803933&s=books&sprefix=michael+heiser,aps,197&sr=1-7

 

[thomas_t]

But, again, I am nothing but willing to try out new things... or old ones again.

so you talked to priests you say. Sounds catholic.
did you try the other side? Evengelicals and penticostals? If the Catholics couldn't convince you they can, I'm convinced.
You want to be contacted by God directly? First step would be to contact his servants in person, I think.
If I may suggest a thing, please don't tell them stories about sisters that don't exist. Even if you think they make a mistake - try to not retort by telling them lies just to "teach" them a lesson. That's just stealing their time, in my opinion.

The best thing you have for now... is Christians knocking at your door. Take it as a basis for your decision making and compare that to what another religion teaches. This is at least my idea for what you could do now.

But you do have a good gift of analysing insulting posts, though. Thank you for being here.

 

[Freodin]

so you talked to priests you say. Sounds catholic.

Lutheran, mostly. Some catholics. Like you, I am german... and you know we do not make much linguistic differences between "evangelische und katholische Pfarrer".

did you try the other side? Evengelicals and penticostals? If the Catholics couldn't convince you they can, I'm convinced.

I'm not quite sure where you are comming from.
One thing I have learned in my decades of interaction with religious people - specifically Christians: no matter what point you talk about... the next Christian you talk to will tell you something completely different.

So, you don't think it matters if I get "convinced" by Catholicis, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Calvinists, Universalists? Russian or Greek Orthodox? Mormons? Jehova's Witnesses?
Why do you think - no, why are you "convinced" - they could convince me? What do they have to offer that I have not already heard... and why should they have arguments that the other sects do not have?

And while we are at "being convinced"... that still rests on me. I might become a "believer" when I find some convincing point... but there are a lot of sincere believers in religions that you consider to be false. "Conviction" doesn't give you correctness.

You want to be contacted by God directly? First step would be to contact his servants in person, I think.

Why? What would a "contact with his servants" offer to me that wasn't already there in all the contacts for the last half-century of my life?
Did you even listen to what I said? "First step"? Heck, I am already at step 11412... and still not a peep from God.

If I may suggest a thing, please don't tell them stories about sisters that don't exist. Even if you think they make a mistake - try to not retort by telling them lies just to "teach" them a lesson. That's just stealing their time, in my opinion.

It's a teaching method called "mirroring". Present your opposite with a scenario just like theirs, from the other side. A rational person is able to recognize the similarities and adjust his own position accordingly.

It is a problem I have seen many times before in this situation: Christians are completely incapable of talking to atheists, because they have a completely wrong image of them.

You seem to suffer from the same problem. You seem to think that somehow I had never done some things that would definitly convince me. (Remember? You were convinced Evangelicals or Pentacostals could convince me.)
Even after I told you about my long engagement with all sorts of religions and religious people, you keep looking for the one magic bullet that would solve your case.

You keep thinking, it seems, that if atheists would just consider this one right point, which they never did, they would somehow see the error of their ways and convert.

(Note: I said "It seems". This is how it appears to me. I may be wrong... but in order for me to consider that I am wrong, I would need to see how I am wrong. So, please, don't take it as an insult or attack, but just as a request to explain yourself.)

People try to "spread the Good News", as if unbelievers never had heard the story before... and when they are not met with enthusiastic agreement, they don't know how to react. The "I'm just here to sow seeds, God has to do the convincing" is a result of that approach... and then the Christian can forget about the whole conversation, cherish their successes and ignore the failures.

But atheists - atheists like me, the "active" ones, the "engaged" ones - have considered all this before. Many times. Asked the questions. Pondered the answers. And found them lacking.

This is not something new to us. Not something unknown. Not something we have never considered. We are atheists - regardless of our former beliefs - exactly because we have considered this.

The best thing you have for now... is Christians knocking at your door. Take it as a basis for your decision making and compare that to what another religion teaches. This is at least my idea for what you could do now.

Why?
There already is a Christian knocking at my door. He's here, right now. I can talk to him. He can tell me what his religion teaches. We could even have this conversation in both our native tongue, if this is more comfortable for him.

This Christian is you. It's even better than "knocking at my door"... there is no limit of time or space in a conversation here.

So, what do you say?

But you do have a good gift of analysing insulting posts, though. Thank you for being here.

I'm not perfect in this regard... I'm also just a human, and prone to slip into sarcasm, but I found it helpful to consider how the way you talk is received by your conversation partner... and try to understand why.

 

[thomas_t]

... returning from lunch: Thanks for your reply. No I did read what you wrote.
Of course we can interact online.
But speaking to Christians in person is always the better option I think.
You've talked to Lutheranians and Catholics. That's great.
Now try Evangelicals and Penticostals in the sense of (German) FEG, Baptisten, Vaterhaus Nürnberg, Christen im Beruf, ICF.
I'm convinced, everyone understands you better when talking to you in person. Online it's difficult.
Why should they of all people do a better job?
At least they are different from what you've learned from the mainline churches.
Give it a try, Freodin.

You keep thinking, it seems, that if atheists would just consider this one right point, which they never did, they would somehow see the error of their ways and convert.

at least you didn't try the Penticostals in Germany, so far.
Mirroring Christian behavior? If no God exists you would be right in your analogy.
But he does exist, I believe.

 

[Freodin]

You've talked to Lutheranians and Catholics. That's great.
Now try Evangelicals and Penticostals in the sense of (German) FEG, Baptisten, Vaterhaus Nürnberg, Christen im Beruf, ICF.

Is that the group that you belong to?
Then... feel free to explain to me how they are "different form what I've learned from the mainline churches".

Is that not the group that you belong to?
Then why use them, of all possible denominations, as an example?
And if you think they are the group to go to for answers... why are you not part of that group?

Why should they of all people do a better job?

That wasn't the question. That was: "why do you think they could convince me?"

At least they are different from what you've learned from the mainline churches.

Because they are "different"?
Do they believe in the God as portrayed in the Bible? Do they believe he came to earth in the form of Jesus? Do they believe Jesus died and was resurrected?
In what way are they different? And how is this "difference" going to convince me of the things that are not different? How is it even convince me of the things that are different?

And just as a sidenote: I said that I "mostly" talked to Lutherans. A question of accesability for me. That doesn't mean I never "tried" the Pentecostals. Even if that is a quarter of a century ago.

Give it a try, Freodin.

Do you notice that are starting to contradict you original argument now?
You told, well, me, specifically
"If you narrow it down to worldwide religions... then you need to choose between 5 and not 10,000. Please correct me, if I'm wrong with the numbers.
5 is a small number so it's checkable. You can make informed choices."

I had already "checked" and "made an informed" choice on one of the "5" major worldwide religions.
And now you tell me that this wasn't enough, and I had to check on one of their subgroups.
Well, I have "checked" Pentecostals. And Baptists. And Charismatics, Evangelische Freikirchen... I told you, I have been doing this for quite a while now. You have left your own argument long ago... when will you be satisfied? The Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879?

at least you didn't try the Penticostals in Germany, so far.

I'm sure that there will be at least one pastor in one church somewhere in the world that I didn't "try" (what a choice of words, again. As if these were restaurants.)

But that rather contradicts your assertion that "[my] first step would be to contact his servants in person".
If all these religious people I spoke to in my life were "his servants"... that this narrowing down would not be necessary.
And if they weren't... that doesn't support your argument of "just checking the big existing religions".

Mirroring Christian behavior? If no God exists you would be right in your analogy.
But he does exist, I believe.

That's the point of contention. Using it as a premise in an argument is a logical fallacy, I'm afraid.

 

[Kaon]

No human can convince another (adult) human of anything. Only self convinces self of something. That is why asking questions is paramount to truth seeking, but at some point the human has to make the transition from agnosticism to gnosis in order to actually evolve, learn and change. A decision must eventually be made.

You don't get to knowledge by aligning with a man-made status quo of knowledge; that is the blind leading the blind. Even if one are the smartest human ever, one is still just a human.

 

[thomas_t]

Is that the group that you belong to?
Then... feel free to explain to me how they are "different form what I've learned from the mainline churches".

Is that not the group that you belong to?
Then why use them, of all possible denominations, as an example?
And if you think they are the group to go to for answers... why are you not part of that group?

Thank you for being interested!
They are totally different, as I see it.
In Germany, as I see it, there are two major mainline churches... and the rest, the smaller Freikirchen (free churches).
The latter propose a
1) personal relationship with God.
2) New birth. That's how the new heart and a new life in Jesus is called in the Bible.
3) Contact with the Holy Spirit.
4) forgiveness of your sins.

while I don't know the Catholics very well... I know of the mainline Protestant church who does not support 1-3 as I see it.
It's different. I personally attend a FEG ("free evangelical church"). It doesn't matter in Germany if it's Baptists, ICF, FEG or penticostals or smaller... they do pretty much the same things.
BTW these groups try to reach the mainline churches as well... they call it Charismatische Erneuerung - charismatic renewal. They exist in both mainline churches, Protestant and Catholic.

Thank you for your interest. Try them and meet Jesus (at least I believe him to be there).

And if they weren't... that doesn't support your argument of "just checking the big existing religions".

I must admit, Germany is special. When you cross the doorstep of a standard Protestant mainline church you (I'm generalizing here...) will find some elderly people calmly sitting in the bench somewhere and you miss life almost completely. They are strong at caring for the refugees and doing politics and that's why I hold them in highest estimation.
However, they don't share out the Gospel as I see it. The Gospel of Christ in that he is able to redeem you and fill you up with new life in case you need some.
Christian churches consider themselves to be restaurants indeed. They sell the "bread of life", as we call it. I'll hope you try this and enjoy!

 

[Freodin]

Thank you for being interested!
They are totally different, as I see it.
In Germany, as I see it, there are two major mainline churches... and the rest, the smaller Freikirchen (free churches).
The latter propose a
1) personal relationship with God.
2) New birth. That's how the new heart and a new life in Jesus is called in the Bible.
3) Contact with the Holy Spirit.
4) forgiveness of your sins.

while I don't know the Catholics very well... I know of the mainline Protestant church who does not support 1-3 as I see it.
It's different. I personally attend a FEG ("free evangelical church"). It doesn't matter in Germany if it's Baptists, ICF, FEG or penticostals or smaller... they do pretty much the same things.
BTW these groups try to reach the mainline churches as well... they call it Charismatische Erneuerung - charismatic renewal. They exist in both mainline churches, Protestant and Catholic.

Thank you for your interest. Try them and meet Jesus (at least I believe him to be there).

I must admit, Germany is special. When you cross the doorstep of a standard Protestant mainline church you (I'm generalizing here...) will find some elderly people calmly sitting in the bench somewhere and you miss life almost completely. They are strong at caring for the refugees and doing politics and that's why I hold them in highest estimation.
However, they don't share out the Gospel as I see it. The Gospel of Christ in that he is able to redeem you and fill you up with new life in case you need some.
Christian churches consider themselves to be restaurants indeed. They sell the "bread of life", as we call it. I'll hope you try this and enjoy!

Well, thank you for being interested enough to post this. Even if nothing of that is new for me, I always find it interesting to see believers explain what they believe. And I cannot blame you for wanting to share something that you think is good.

But, as I said, right now and before... this isn't new to me. I have seen it before... and somehow I never met Jesus.

All this comes down to "belief". You "believe" that Jesus is in your church. I don't.

And that basically sums up the whole problem.
If we get back to my hypothetical sister... there is no need for belief. If I had a nice sister who was interested in meeting you... we could arrange a date.
My sister will meet you in your church. She'll either be there... or she won't. Your "belief" that she is there is irrelevant. If she isn't there, no amount of "belief" will get you into a personal relationship with her... and if she is, you don't need any "belief", because you are meeting her, in person, in the flesh and blood.

This very obviously is not true for God, or Jesus. Here, it all comes down to "belief".

And so I could "try" your church, and see if I find something of interest there, some engagement in the proceedings, some nice people who I would like to be friends with. Nothing I can not do in other places as well, in other situations. At a concert. In a bar. At a games night. Human stuff.

But all the other thing you talked about... personal relationship with God, contact to the Holy Spirit, being reborn, having your sins forgiven... none of that is demonstrable. None of that is different from it being not real, only "believed in".

There is no demonstrable difference between you getting your "sin forgiven" by confession and penannce in a catholic church, you "being forgiven" in a lutheran church or you "having forgiveness" in your FEG. Or me not being forgiven... or me not needing any "forgiveness" for my "sins".

It all comes down to what you believe. Not what you can show, not what you can demonstrate. Not even what you can reasonably explain. Belief is everything.

I don't have that belief. Belief is not something you can "try".

And if that is all that counts... I still say that a "loving God" could do better.

 

[eleos1954]

That was aimed at a common Christian response when I ask for... something more that "here's the Gospel, God is real, Jesus loves you kthxbye."
It is usually answered with "how dare you demand that God acts by your rules"?


Nope, just some general frustration at the inability of Christians to even acknowledge other's points.


Yes, that is a problem. But not one that "the Lord" could not solve, easily. But he doesn't.


Humans make mistakes. Humans err. And sometimes, human make deliberate mistakes for certain specific reasons.
Sorry, but you do not know my sister exists. You have been told that my sister exists. In that case, you have been deliberately misled. I do not have a sister. My only sibling was an older brother, who died four years ago.
But that did not keep you from praying for her, or offering her your friendship. It seems that the existence of my sister is not required for that.

I hope you will forgive me for misleading you... but I also hope you understood my point: for a relationship to exist, there has to be more than say-so.

You wrote above: One can not have friendship if they don't know someone exists. Well, I don't know that God exists. I don't believe that God exists. There is nothing I can do to change that.
That's my side. I am a human. Limited, fallible. God, on the other hand, is asserted to be infallibe. Perfect. It would be quite easy for him to give me that spark, that "seed" as Christians like to call it, that I, personally, individually, would need to make me "know him".

But I don't get it. There is no one knocking.
Instead I get people like you. Or people not like you... who just tell me basically the same stuff as you, just of a different kind.
And I... the fallible, limited human, am told to be the one to decide. Decide which "God" is the real one. Yeah... what could go wrong with that.


That is just a fine wrapping to say: "Humans talk about religion... God is silent".
And you might notice that this is not what the bible verse said. It does not say: "I send my human minions to knock on your door, and they will be the one who eat dinner with you, relating my wisdom to you."
God isn't said to have send a human to Paul, "spreading the Gospel" to him. No, he appeared personally. Undeniably. Even if Paul's lowly servants did not get to join in.


Nope. Sorry. But as long as you are making definitive statements about other people's innermost feelings and desires, you will not reach them, at all.

As I said, I have been here on this forum for almost twenty years. Not because I am having a void to be filled by God. Just because I want to understand people. And see why I don't understand people. I have learned a lot in these last twenty years... even a lot about me.

One of these things - I have mentioned it before, long before you joined here - is that I do not have a "God-shaped hole" in my heart, as was the expression used back then. And I opened up a very intimate personal episode from my life to demonstrate that.
So, I know myself quite well. I am not ashamed to open up. And you are wrong.
How should I trust anything you say about relationships with deities, when you get something so very close and intimate to myself wrong?


I have found, by repeated experience, that people always get disappointed by the prayers I ask them to pray for me.


Which is a nice way of saying that you and God talk about them... but not with them.
Even in the face of disagreement, I have always found it better to talk with people, to people... rather than at and about people.


Thank you. I think I should feel insulted by the implication... but it's quite difficult to insult me.

I do not have a sister.

So you are a liar ... that's not my problem ... it is your's. Therefore I bid you adieu. No sense in having conversation with someone who lies.

 

[Freodin]

So you are a liar ... that's not my problem ... it is your's. Therefore I bid you adieu. No sense in having conversation with someone who lies.

Who you talk to is your prerogative.
Though I don't see it that way. You have no problems with someone who tells a fictional story in order to make his point. Obviously you don't... you are a Christian. And you have no problems with this guy then explaining the point of his made up story.

You don't go "So this never happened... you are a liar!" You accept it is a educational tool.. and you think this is something enormously important.

Well... what you accept and reject is your own business only. But I rather be a "liar" for a good purpose, than someone who keeps up his facade because he cannot admit his own failings.