Theologies

[dreadnought]

God as our Father and Jesus both want us to be "happy" a word for "Blessed" in the long run, but going through Loving disciplining (punishment) in this live helps us.

Yes, his discipline keeps us on course.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It seems to me most people abide by one of these theologies:

1. The Lord wants us to suffer for no reason.
2. The Lord doesn't care what we do - we're all going to heaven.
3. The Lord wants us to be happy, and that means obeying his commandments, since the commandments keep us out of trouble, if we obey them.

What do you think?

None of the above.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When Jesus sacrificed his life for us, I don't think it was with the intention that we should be miserable. He loved us and wanted us to be happy - that is why he made the sacrifice. That is why he is the boss.

The impression I get is God wants us to be good, morally good, not happy. There are lots of really bad people who are happy. Of course those who suffer under them are not but they do not care.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

1. The Lord wants us to suffer for no reason.

If I believed in chance or random chaos I might believe in suffering for no reason. However, I believe in the sovereignty of God in everything, I believe Christ is Lord over suffering, indeed He promised persecution to His disciples, why would it be any different for other followers of Christ? Throughout history there are countless accounts of Christians suffering for their faith, because of their faith. Also we do well to remember the suffering which came with the fall resulting in curses including the natural corruption which our bodies age and die. There are other reasons for suffering, but will not go into them atm. In short, suffering is never for no reason (meaningless, purposeless), we may not have all the answers, we may not understand, we may struggle greatly for the entirety of this life, but a Christian can trust the One who has all the answers and His reasons and purposes.

2. The Lord doesn't care what we do - we're all going to heaven.

Which would be not much different than the meaningless, purposeless, random, chaotic universe atheists believe this to be. Just temporary, self-created meaning, self-created purpose, subject to the random and accidental, all finally ending in a chaotic bang similar to the big one purposed in naturalistic Science in the theoretical area of astronomy.

3. The Lord wants us to be happy, and that means obeying his commandments, since the commandments keep us out of trouble, if we obey them.

What do you think?

I think the happiest people love the Lord with all of their heart, mind, and soul and love their neighbors and in so doing, there can be joy and happiness even in suffering and misery. It is amazing how the grace and mercy of God can pull a person through things, where the world would look at us and think? "What's this person on? Why are they not going insane? How are they even able to go through all that?" These sorts of questions. Suffering as a Christian before the world, can be a very memorable testimony to the truth of peace in Christ, to the truth of the love of God for and manifested through His people.

 

[dreadnought]

None of the above.

What's wrong with #3?

 

[dreadnought]

The impression I get is God wants us to be good, morally good, not happy. There are lots of really bad people who are happy. Of course those who suffer under them are not but they do not care.

What is the point of the whole thing if we aren't going to be happy?

 

[Chinchilla]

It seems to me most people abide by one of these theologies:

1. The Lord wants us to suffer for no reason.
2. The Lord doesn't care what we do - we're all going to heaven.
3. The Lord wants us to be happy, and that means obeying his commandments, since the commandments keep us out of trouble, if we obey them.

What do you think?

1 and 3 are not exclusive , 2 is not Scriptural tho Hebrews 12:7-9

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What's wrong with #3?

The goal is not to be happy. Obeying the commandments does not always make you happy at the time in any case. If being happy, you being happy, is the goal, then the commandments are not the way to go and it will be clear to many very quickly that this is the case.

The goal to be like Him or be like Jesus which is the same thing. This produces a whole community of people who are in the end happy for sure. But to make one's one happiness the goal is to move onto the Enemy's turf. That is what he offers. God wants to care about the happiness of others, if you will.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What is the point of the whole thing if we aren't going to be happy?

To love God and love others, whether it makes you happy at the moment or not.

 

[fhansen]

It seems to me most people abide by one of these theologies:

1. The Lord wants us to suffer for no reason.
2. The Lord doesn't care what we do - we're all going to heaven.
3. The Lord wants us to be happy, and that means obeying his commandments, since the commandments keep us out of trouble, if we obey them.

What do you think?

The Lord ultimately wants us to be happy, more than we can ever possibly imagine. But He knows that, in this life, there will be many trials and chastisements. Suffering can produce faith and character and holiness. And to the extent that we follow Him in any case, doing the best we can with the cards we're dealt based on the knowledge we have and grace given, we'll make it to heaven.

Our goal, the definition of justice and perfection for man, is to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. To the extent that we achieve this we are in obedience. Either way, in the end, God is the final judge.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The Lord ultimately wants us to be happy, more than we can ever possibly imagine.

Where did He say that?

But He knows that, in this life, there will be many trials and chastisements.

Most of the suffering probably comes because we pursued our own happiness instead of living God and living man.

Suffering can produce faith and character and holiness. And to the extent that we follow Him in any case, doing the best we can with the cards we're dealt based on the knowledge we have and grace given, we'll make it to heaven.

Suffering can also cause believers to fall away. It happens.

Our goal, the definition of justice and perfection for man, is to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves.

Correct. So why do you throw in the selfish “happiness is his desire” stuff?

To the extent that we achieve this we are in obedience. Either way, in the end, God is the final judge.

Well actually obeying Godin detail is obeying God. I mean loving God is vague until He asks you to do something or refrain from doing something.

 

[fhansen]

Where did He say that?

First of all He wouldn't be much of a God if He didn't want that for us-and eternity with Him in heaven might be a bit of a grind . The Church has always taught this, related at least to 1 Cor 2:9. Also, look up the word beatitude and its etymology; the church has also taught that God wishes to share in His own beatitude/happiness. He's a good God, His glory is a reflection not of an aloof superiority but flows from the goodness and love that He is-and inherently wants to share. What we have to understand is that God is infinitely, ineffably good and loves man lavishly and wants the very best for him-always has; God's on our side while enmity came from us, not Him, even as He allows us the freedom to wallow in our selfish, prideful foolishness, eternally if we wish. Anyway, Jesus came as a suffering servant, remember, and when we see Him we see God.

Most of the suffering probably comes because we pursued our own happiness instead of living God and living man.

Yep, but not only that. Try losing a child or suffering some awful illness or being a victim of another's sin or wrong-headed pursuit of happiness IOW-and you may well have. And these things can be used as well-to break stony hearts, to help us reject this world's ways and in any case help see our need for and dependency on God.

Suffering can also cause believers to fall away. It happens.

Yep. Never know; it can happen either way.

Correct. So why do you throw in the selfish “happiness is his desire” stuff?

Because, if we're honest, we'd agree with the church that we all desire happiness-it's behind much of what we do, many of the choices we make-it's simply innate to want it, and it would certainly be bizarre to pursue its opposite-unhappiness. Happiness is our "homeostasis" so to speak, where we want to be internally and no more selfish in itself than simply wanting what's good and right for ourselves, even if we can be selfish in pursuing it. So even someone using drugs or pursuing wealth or even just some hobby is looking for that elusive quality. And the more we let go and let God, the more peace and happiness we experience, relatively speaking to the extent that this world allows it. The ultimate happiness for a human, and that which finally totally captivates his will so that he desires nothing else except God first above all else, is the immediate vision of God, that which causes us to seek His face to begin with as Scripture directs us to do, and that which is fully consummated when we finally "see" Him "face to face" and know Him fully as per 1 Cor 13:12. As Aquinas put it, "God, alone, satisfies."

Well actually obeying God in detail is obeying God. I mean loving God is vague until He asks you to do something or refrain from doing something.

Loving God isn't vague; Jesus didn't teach the Greatest Commandments for no reason; love is the very New Covenant reason for obedience, the right motivation for that obedience as opposed to blind insincere drudgery or sense of obligation based solely on fear or legalism. Love should be every Christian's goal; most vagueness about it would be due to the fact that we don't yet know it as well as God desires us to-and will help us to. Anyway, here's Basil of Cesarea from the 3rd or 4th century speaking:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

 

[LoveofTruth]

It seems to me most people abide by one of these theologies:

1. The Lord wants us to suffer for no reason.
2. The Lord doesn't care what we do - we're all going to heaven.
3. The Lord wants us to be happy, and that means obeying his commandments, since the commandments keep us out of trouble, if we obey them.

What do you think?

All three are wrong

1. He does not want us to suffer for no reason. All suffer as they walk in faith in Christ because the flesh has been crucified with Christ, they that are Christ have crucified the flesh, they walk in the spirit not after the flesh. It is given to us also to suffer with him and to pick up our cross daily.

2. The Lord does care what we do and not all are going to heaven. We can only do anything as we abide in him and walk by faith

3. The Lord wants us to have true joy in the Spirit, happiness comes and goes depending on circumstances. he works in all believers to make us perfect and fills us with joy and love as we abide in him. This is a new and living way. We are not walking after the flesh and the Mosaic law. We do not live after the letter but after the Spirit.

The other option is

4. The Lord wants all to repent and believe the gospel and then he will give them life as he dwells in their heart and as they continue in the faith he will work in us to make us perfect unto every good work working in us that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV). The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. The law written and engraved on stones is done away for believers and we are not under it, we walk in the law of Christ and keep His commandments.

 

[Doug Melven]

fhansen said:
The Lord ultimately wants us to be happy, more than we can ever possibly imagine.

Where did He say that?

Look up the Hebrew meaning for the word "Blessed". In Strong's it is H835.

 

[hedrick]

I'm not a universalist because I don't think it's consistent with what Jesus said, but 2 is a bit unfair to universalists. Things can matter even if we don't go to hell because of them. God cares how we treat others, and we should too, because we care, too.

Jesus clearly teaches that we're accountable for everything we do. In some ways that standard Protestant picture makes that just as challenging as universalism. The standard Protestant picture is that we either end up in eternal bliss or eternal torment. If we make the grade for eternal bliss (which in standard Protestant theology is on the basis of faith), we don't get punished for the bad things. The situation isn't really any different from universalism.

It's interesting how our ideas of the afterlife parallel how we treat children. Today psychologists tell us that it's perfectly possible to raise good kids without punishing them. (As a Sunday School teacher, I know of actual cases where that worked.) They're still accountable. But if you have a decent relationship you can hold them accountable without punishing them. Surely God can manage the same thing.

Or if not, there can be varying rewards and punishments short of eternal torment. Jesus' teachings have quite a variety of punishments, and in several cases talks about some being treated better and worse than others. Some interpreters understand "weeping and gnashing of teeth" not as a sign of hell, but someone who realized that they were going to end up in a much more remote corner of heaven than they had expected. (It's actually a well-known Southern Baptist from whom I first heart that suggestion.)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

According to His Word, Yahweh does whatever He Pleases.
Yahweh uses suffering to accomplish His purpose in our lives (Ekklesia being formed together in Christ Jesus , LIVING STONES; we need the discipline/ chastisement/ or we are not His sons)

"The Lord doesn't care what mankind does" No one is going to heaven. (except the chosen ones)

Why should the Lord want anyone to be happy ? Most people are rebellious all their lives, refusing to repent; so , yes, they might(or might not) even be "happy" on earth, but they are resurrected to eternal judgment, already today condemned because of their unbelief.

It seems to me most people abide by one of these theologies:
1. The Lord wants us to suffer for no reason.
2. The Lord doesn't care what we do - we're all going to heaven.
3. The Lord wants us to be happy, and that means obeying his commandments, since the commandments keep us out of trouble, if we obey them.
What do you think?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When Jesus sacrificed his life for us, I don't think it was with the intention that we should be miserable. He loved us and wanted us to be happy - that is why he made the sacrifice. That is why he is the boss.

You do know, right, that as Jesus suffered, it is written, "Have this same mind in you..." (TO SUFFER!) .....

 

[dreadnought]

1 and 3 are not exclusive , 2 is not Scriptural tho Hebrews 12:7-9

How are 1 and 3 not exclusive? 1 says the Lord wants us to suffer for no reason. 3 says the Lord wants us to be happy "and that means obeying his commandments, since the commandments keep us out of trouble, if we obey them."

 

[dreadnought]

The goal is not to be happy. Obeying the commandments does not always make you happy at the time in any case. If being happy, you being happy, is the goal, then the commandments are not the way to go and it will be clear to many very quickly that this is the case.

The goal to be like Him or be like Jesus which is the same thing. This produces a whole community of people who are in the end happy for sure. But to make one's one happiness the goal is to move onto the Enemy's turf. That is what he offers. God wants to care about the happiness of others, if you will.

Obeying the commandments keeps you out of trouble, and if you keep out of trouble, what stands in the way of keeping you happy?

 

[dreadnought]

To love God and love others, whether it makes you happy at the moment or not.

When did "at the moment" enter the conversation?