Theistic Evolutionist...

[Bradly Capel]

LOL

I have 40.5 times more posts than yours times Wardens ... and you say this?

You could have a millions times more and it wouldn't change a thing, Christians are not in the business of answering questions and creationists never answer questions.

 

[Neogaia777]

Have you ever heard the term "legends". The often have small beginnings. They grow over time, especially if people have an agenda for growing them.

Did you hear about the Jew teaching about love and charity?
Yeah, I heard he fed some people.
I heard he fed a thousand people.
What ever happened to him?
He died.
I heard he died and came back to life.
I heard he died, came back to life and went to heaven.
I heard his mother was a virgin, you know, like Dionysus' mother.
My friends and I think he is really cool.
My friends and I think he is really cool and have started to have group meetings to discuss him.
He died a hundred year ago, but I heard other stories about him from people who knew people who said they knew him and I'm going to write down some of the stuff they said.​

• Not all made up.
• Not all lies.
• Not all one big conspiracy.
• Not at all illogical given the times.

Except the copies we have are 40-70 years old, and that's not that old, and the Jews passed onto the Christians was to dutifully exactly copy, word for word, from the originals (look how little the dead sea scrolls changed over a thousand year period)... The apostles were more than likely present when the original copies were written, and they are firsthand eyewitnesses...

Do you believe that Joseph Smith got golden tablets from the angel Moroni? Fifteen million Mormons do. And that's just within the last 200 years.

No, Joseph Smith is a false prophet

 

[AV1611VET]

That's because it didn't happen, ask the Jews.

Did it happen?

 

[ecco]

ecco:
I vote we teach all Creation Stories in school, so that future scientists and laity alike will know what it is they're railing against.
How's that?​

That wouldn't help.
Then you guys would be here demanding we sort it all out for you.

Why would you say that? You guys can't even sort out which of your own two creation stories is the right one.

And assuming you guys could even detach yourselves from your sacred Scientific Method long enough to listen to just one creation story, I would be surprised.

We have listened. We have read. We have evaluated. We have found yours to be just average as far as creation stories go.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm telling you guys, even setting the Bible aside, THERE IS A GOD, and I'm no liar on this... I'm trying to reconcile "it" with the God of the Bible and/or Jesus Christ and science, and what I know about this God that I encountered and what the Bible says about God. You should trust me on this...? The supernatural is real...

 

[ecco]

You guys by your own disbelief are basically saying that Jesus and the things he did were all lies of the authors? How could they all be lying? To me to deny Christ and all the things he did, (the miracles, the teachings) you must think they are "made-up" then, and it's all one big conspiracy or something, highly illogical...

Have you ever heard the term "legends". The often have small beginnings. They grow over time, especially if people have an agenda for growing them.

Did you hear about the Jew teaching about love and charity?
Yeah, I heard he fed some people.
I heard he fed a thousand people.
What ever happened to him?
He died.
I heard he died and came back to life.
I heard he died, came back to life and went to heaven.
I heard his mother was a virgin, you know, like Dionysus' mother.
My friends and I think he is really cool.
My friends and I think he is really cool and have started to have group meetings to discuss him.
He died a hundred year ago, but I heard other stories about him from people who knew people who said they knew him and I'm going to write down some of the stuff they said.

• Not all made up.
• Not all lies.
• Not all one big conspiracy.
• Not at all illogical given the times.

Except the copies we have are 40-70 years old, and that's not that old, and the Jews passed onto the Christians was to dutifully exactly copy, word for word, from the originals (look how little the dead sea scrolls changed over a thousand year period)... The apostles were more than likely present when the original copies were written, and they are firsthand eyewitnesses...

Not according to biblical scholars, Christian or otherwise. Perhaps you would like to show a source for your assertion.

There is no evidence that any notes were taken at the time of any of the events. Who took down the 2500 words attributed to jesus during the sermon of the mount?


Start the legend, stoke it a little and watch it grow. Just as the Mormons did.

Do you believe that Joseph Smith got golden tablets from the angel Moroni? Fifteen million Mormons do. And that's just within the last 200 years.

No, Joseph Smith is a false prophet

Two thousand years ago many people would have believed that your jesus was a false prophet.

That's the beauty of religion, everyone believes "My god is right and real and your god is wrong and false".

 

[ecco]

I'm telling you guys, even setting the Bible aside, THERE IS A GOD, and I'm no liar on this... I'm trying to reconcile "it" with the God of the Bible and/or Jesus Christ and science, and what I know about this God that I encountered and what the Bible says about God. You should trust me on this...? The supernatural is real...

If you believe "The supernatural is real", then you must seriously consider the validity of LastThursdayism.

 

[Bradly Capel]

If you believe "The supernatural is real", then you must seriously consider the validity of LastThursdayism.

I think they should seriously consider a lot more than that, 'supernatural'?

 

[Chris B]

The supernatural is real...

But how did you conclude it was "supernatural" and not just an artificial category arising from you having too narrow a definition of "natural"?

It's an easy slip. Lightning strikes, meteors, comets and earthquakes were all once firmly in the "supernatural" category.
"Nature" turned out to be quite large enough.

Chris

 

[Chris B]

That minset leads to this mindset:

"The majority of prophecy, not just Biblical prophecy, relies on vague language and phrases."

And do you guys apply that minset across the board?

Do you, for instance, teach Phlogiston theory alongside of Combustion theory?

And are you happy just to teach evolution and not instant creation?

I suggest it can lead to a range of mindsets, not just that one.
It wasn't prophecy that was my biggest issue with the bible.
(Though I did notice Paul getting away with handling of OT passages in ways that I had been taught would be seriously out of order if I did it.)

Could you suggest a more neutral form of words than mine?
Yes, comparative religion can contain a more-or-less hidden stance that: "all these are *just* religions, and it is silly to say one is better or more true than the other when they are essentially products of different human cultures."
It rules out the possibility of the divine or supernatural even coming in for consideration, which makes the process "loaded". I thought my phrasing had left that idea still in.

But one-perspective-taught when there is a particular religious or faith position in place can get even narrower and less likely to consider alternate perspectives.. on their own terms.

I think any physics class should be taught Phlogiston theory, and a geocentric solar system,
and not just to then say "but these were primitive and wrong". That's falling towards dogma.
Get students to work out why they are, if they are. Much more valuable, I suggest, teaching the ideas and techniques of analysis and critique.
Trouble is, there just isn't enough time to go back to do analysis and checking on everything.
"I've been told Japan exists as a nation state of islands. I've never been there to see it. Now, how do I know this is reliable information? Could it be a made-up story?"

So a lot of information (and in education I suspect rather too much) is passed on as "given" and accepted as given unless reasons or circumstances crop up to question one bit or another.
And if never taught (I wasn't, had to work it out for myself) that "solid settled facts" might not be, it's a significant step to even think of challenging or questioning what one has been taught.

I've spent years going through my mental attic and throwing out stuff acquired in my childhood which, when actually examined, varies from the dubious to the down-right wrong.
Small example: I grew up just "knowing" that in any (film) fight between the US cavalry and Indians(sic) the cavalry were the good guys.
Hmm.

Chris.

 

[Chris B]

Good luck recognizing the [correct] answers when you see them.

Now there is a big problem, which many don't even wake to.

"I may have a problem with the calibration of my metal toolkit.
I'll just get my mental tool kit out so I can fix that.

Ah..."

Chris

 

[Chris B]

What would you think if I railed to have geography removed from school, then came on the Internet and blamed my inability to find France on a map on most maps being drawn vague?

I'd think you were inconsistent, or applying dubious logic.

But let's change subjects. Quite a bit I was taught in History (as the uncontroversial pre-packaged condensed version in textbooks and lessons) has turned out to be far from reliable and far from free of bias or unconscious assumptions.
The more I looked, the more I found the pre-digested versions (pat, neat, and ready to be regurgitated to pass exams) were often unsatisfactory. And sometimes drastically wrong.

What should be taught? Indeed!
I've seen too many educational establishments and programs that strongly resembled sausage factories:
"stuff 'em full and churn them out." With little ability in place to consider or question the flavour of the filling they've been given.

Chris

 

[Neogaia777]

But how did you conclude it was "supernatural" and not just an artificial category arising from you having too narrow a definition of "natural"?

It's an easy slip. Lightning strikes, meteors, comets and earthquakes were all once firmly in the "supernatural" category.
"Nature" turned out to be quite large enough.

Chris

I know if were allowed to advance far enough, what I am calling supernatural may turn out to perfectly natural

 

[Chris B]

I know if were allowed to advance far enough, what I am calling supernatural may turn out to perfectly natural

I'm working on the basis that, by previous experience, the "everything is natural" is the best provisional position to hold.
It seems a more useful tool for investigating the world, for one thing.

Chris

 

[Doveaman]

Theistic Evolutionist...

Theistic evolution is not scientific, it is theistic.

 

[lesliedellow]

Theistic evolution is not scientific, it is theistic.

Evolution is a scientific theory.

Theistic Evolution is a philosophical interpretation of that theory.

 

[Loudmouth]

Theistic evolution is not scientific, it is theistic.

True enough. Evolution is the scientific theory. Theistic evolution is the theological position that God works through the natural process of evolution. There is also theistic gravitation, theistic thermodynamics, theistic quantum mechanics, and all of the other scientific theories that Christians accept as part of God acting through nature.

 

[lesliedellow]

True enough. Evolution is the scientific theory. Theistic evolution is the theological position that God works through the natural process of evolution. There is also theistic gravitation, theistic thermodynamics, theistic quantum mechanics, and all of the other scientific theories that Christians accept as part of God acting through nature.

The difference is that atheists feel less tempted to claim that thermodynamics invalidates the Bible. Consequently, the adjective atheistic is never implicitly present when thermodynamics is mentioned, and there is no corresponding need for the "theistic" qualifier.

 

[Doveaman]

Evolution is a scientific theory.

Theistic Evolution is a philosophical interpretation of that theory.

Evolution is a scientific theory.

Theistic Evolution is a philosophical interpretation of that theory which includes a supernatural being acting through evolution.

A theory that includes a supernatural being makes it unscientific.

 

[Doveaman]

True enough. Evolution is the scientific theory. Theistic evolution is the theological position that God works through the natural process of evolution. There is also theistic gravitation, theistic thermodynamics, theistic quantum mechanics, and all of the other scientific theories that Christians accept as part of God acting through nature.

Christians not only believe God acts through nature. Christians also believe nature acts through God.