Theistic Evolutionary Theory, could our Creator have evolved/learned?

DennisTate · Apr 12, 2012

After teaching English in Quito, Ecuador for over a year I returned home to Canada determined to be more socially and politically active. I ran for public office as an independent three times and joined one of Canada's Political Parties in 2009.

Here in Canada the provincial level of government has jurisdiction over education and i believe that it is possible to write up a number of variations on Theistic Evolutionary Theory that actually could end up being taught in schools within a few years or decades.

I personally could not write such a text book but this blog could be used to get some people together who could handle such a project.

Dogmatic Atheists Lack Mathematical Aptitude.

In a sense I am taking this verse in Genesis much further than it usually is taken:

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

How does human life start?

Well, as a spermatozoa that could perhaps be compared with a Super String and with a ova that could perhaps be compared with Super Energetic Matter or Super Wave?!

DennisTate · Apr 12, 2012

The writings of Dr. Chaim Henry Tejman could lay a foundation for a variation on Intelligent Design Theory that actually could be in our schools sooner than we might tend to imagine!

Wave Theory and Gender: Why Sex

"Pulling and gravitation, which resemble basic feminine traits, are the dominant properties of the magnetic loop. Consequently, magnetic loops have a capacity for storing energy and act to maintain the structural integrity of the entire wave formation. The electronic/energetic loop consists of expanding properties that disperse energetic matter that “disappears” into space. This is synonymous with masculine characteristics." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

Grand Unified Theory: Wave Theory and Life

"The essential matter from which our universe is created is energetic matter. It behaves like living matter, creating every known entity, including living objects and even thought (which occurs through energetic matter–wave interaction). The essential structure of energetic matter is high-energy (concentrated energetic matter) electro-magnetic waves (picture above). This simple structure is the basis of everything: every energetic formation and the universe. In picture 2, we see that the DNA (double helix) of all living formations has the same structure as waves: two loops of the same energetic matter, behaving according to the same rules." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

yanno the meek · Apr 15, 2012

It seems a little Star Trekky to me. To rational thinkers the intelligent design proponents are pretty laughable anyway, I think something a little more basic might pique the interest:

The ancient peoples who wrote the first text of the Bible had very few books by today's standards and knew nothing which needed to be counted in the millions. A creator trying to describe the formation of the universe to an unlearned people without using large numbers necessitates the use of metaphor. Intelligent design claims the universe was created by an intelligent being for a purpose, revealed through metaphor to a chosen people.

It's simple, succinct and I think you'll get a lot more buy in from the council.

yanno the meek · Apr 15, 2012

After reading my earlier post I'd like to add a thought or two.

Catholics believe that God is static and unchanging however I've always been at a loss to explain the Parable of the Big Dinner (a rich man invites friends to a dinner but no one comes so he scours the countryside for others, etc.) Before I converted it always seemed this indicated a change of heart on the part of God. In Catholicism it seems to represent deception.

So there you have it. As a Catholic I believe in a static God but it's not an explanation I readily understand.

DennisTate · Apr 15, 2012

yanno the meek said:
It seems a little Star Trekky to me. To rational thinkers the intelligent design proponents are pretty laughable anyway, I think something a little more basic might pique the interest:

The ancient peoples who wrote the first text of the Bible had very few books by today's standards and knew nothing which needed to be counted in the millions. A creator trying to describe the formation of the universe to an unlearned people without using large numbers necessitates the use of metaphor. Intelligent design claims the universe was created by an intelligent being for a purpose, revealed through metaphor to a chosen people.

It's simple, succinct and I think you'll get a lot more buy in from the council.

Yanno the meed! I do indeed seriously like this paragraph!

DennisTate · Apr 15, 2012

yanno the meek said:
After reading my earlier post I'd like to add a thought or two.

Catholics believe that God is static and unchanging however I've always been at a loss to explain the Parable of the Big Dinner (a rich man invites friends to a dinner but no one comes so he scours the countryside for others, etc.) Before I converted it always seemed this indicated a change of heart on the part of God. In Catholicism it seems to represent deception.

So there you have it. As a Catholic I believe in a static God but it's not an explanation I readily understand.

Truly helpful comments Yanno the meek!

Ever since reading some articles on A Theory of Everything back in the '90's I have had the impression that the time is coming when theoretical physics goes a long way toward helping the scientific community to comprehend the basic nature of our Creator and of the holy angels!

John 5:17

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

John 5:19

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Combine these verses with what we know of how fundamental energy seems to behave and I am left with the impression that the Ancient of Days continuously works and in a sense experiments to find out more and more and more! Once the results are clear then the Ancient of Days shows the Logos/Word/Son exactly what has been discovered!?

i of course could be incorrect in this but that is the impression that I get when I read about how astonishingly energetic fundamental energy would be!

"It was not until 1920 that the idea of linking electromagnetism and
gravity resurfaced. At that time a new theory of gravitation had been proposed by Albert Einstein (1879-1955), called the general theory of relativity. It was a replacement of Newton's theory, which had stood unchallenged since 1687. Inspired by Einstein's work, a young German mathematician named Theodore Kaluza was seized by a curious idea. The theory of relativity links space an time together to form a four-dimensional space-time continuum. What would happen, mused Kaluza, if general relativity were formulated in five rather than four dimensions? This is what Kaluza did, and to everyone's astonishment it was discovered that five-dimensional gravity obeys the same laws as
four-dimensional gravity as well as Maxwell's laws for the electromagnetic field. In other words, gravitation and electromagnetism are automatically unified in five dimensions, where electromagnetism is merely a component of gravity!"

The only drawback of the theory concerns the extra dimension. Why
don't we see it? An ingenious answer was provided by Oskar Klein. A
hosepipe viewed from afar looks like a wiggly line, i.e. one- dimensional.
However, on closer inspection it can be seen as a narrow tube. It is, in fact,
two-dimensional, and what was taken to be a point on the line is actually a
little circle going around the tube. In the same way, reasoned Klein, what we normally regard as a point in three dimensional space could in reality be a little circle going around a fourth space dimension. Thus Kaluza's extra
dimension might well exist, but be impossible to detect because it is closed
(circular) and rolled up to a very small circumference. In spite of
these bizarre overtones, it seems probable that in future a "theory of everything" will make use of the idea of unseen higher dimensions."
....

"Although nature manifests four distinct forces, physicists believe that
each may be part of a smaller number of more primitive forces. At high energy, the electromagnetic and weak forces appear to merge into a single "electroweak" force. Some "grand unified theories" suggest that a further amalgamation takes place between the electroweak and strong forces at as yet unattained energies. The most ambitious unification schemes envisage an amalgamation of all four forces into a single "superforce" at ultra-high levels of energy.
...

">"The real burden in the next three centuries will not be the development of fancy mathematics, but the experimental testing of these ambitious theories. All current thinking about total unification assumes that the effects of linking all the forces and particles together will only become manifest at energies that are some trillion times greater than those currently attainable in particle accelerators. Probably we shall never reach such energies directly" ( A Theory of Everything" Volume 21 of "The World of Science)

yanno the meek · Apr 16, 2012

There is nothing that excites the imagination like high energy physics and the multitude of mysteries which seem just out of reach. Frankly I myself find multiple dimensionality and string theory (brane theory) to be exciting developments and I'm known on this board for my ideas about how God came into being.

But I think we overstep our bounds when we try to apply physics to faith because physics is a moving target. What is imaginative and provocative today is tomorrow's intellectual trash. Quantum Mechanics cannot explain Relativity and so can't produce a unified theory. String Theory has no predictive power. Both are fatally flawed. In my opinion serious, academic religious speculation should be reserved for when the unified theory gets nailed down. Otherwise we risk ridicule. I think what you suggest is provocative but I'm not sure it's ready for the big time.

Alive_Again · Apr 16, 2012

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:3 (KJV)

People must "hear" and "see" with their heart to receive the gospel, to believe that things on the Earth pertain to a creator God.

The scripture points to a blindness of heart that occurs which obscures this spiritual dimension where God reigns.

Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:17-18

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:17-19

People can be blind because of the effect of sin which hardens the heart.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:19-20

People harden their heart with hatred...

But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1 John 2:11

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 1:19-23

Atheists turn a blind eye to this passage, because truth confronts blindness. It judges the blind.

It takes a seeking heart to begin to see and hear the call of God in one's life.

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
John 12:40

Their hearts were already hard, that is why He blinded their eyes, so they could not come forth with a hard heart and be healed.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
James 4:6-8

If someone wants to find evidence of God in the Earth (actually seeing the invisible things of Him in creation as spoken of in Romans, he needs a seeking, submissive, humble heart. God gives everyone a chance (many chances), but He will not continually cast His pearls before swine. So the heart condition is everything to enable "convincing" somone (seeing/hearing) that God exists and can be known through Jesus alone.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard?
Romans 10:16-18

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:12

So to "hear" you must have these heart conditions and the Spirit Word of life. This is the seed that enters the heart. The heart should seek to remove itself from the cares of the world to be able to grow and take root. To understand and see takes someone humble who is looking and listening with their spiritual eyes and ears.

Alive_Again · Apr 16, 2012

To further comment on a couple of things...

It seems a little Star Trekky to me. To rational thinkers the intelligent design proponents are pretty laughable anyway, I think something a little more basic might pique the interest:

Explaning vision to a blind person it outside of their comprehension. Evidence of intelligent design is everywhere.

Catholics believe that God is static and unchanging however I've always been at a loss to explain the Parable of the Big Dinner (a rich man invites friends to a dinner but no one comes so he scours the countryside for others, etc.) Before I converted it always seemed this indicated a change of heart on the part of God. In Catholicism it seems to represent deception.

And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Matt 22:1-10

And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Luke 14:15-24

These passages speak to a people who were called to the kingdom and they disregarded it. In the passage in Matthew it speaks of God's servants, the Jews (and subsequently any other of God's people desiring to serve God and who behave the same). They made light of the call and dealt with their own affairs. Now anyone can come. Jesus followed the Luke account withe cost of discipleship and the rewards for receiving or rejecting the call.

And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:25-33

yanno the meek · Apr 16, 2012

Alive_Again said:
Explaning vision to a blind person it outside of their comprehension. Evidence of intelligent design is everywhere.

True. But it's a textbook and I just don't think the publishers will print it.

Alive_Again said:
These passages speak to a people who were called to the kingdom and they disregarded it. In the passage in Matthew it speaks of God's servants, the Jews (and subsequently any other of God's people desiring to serve God and who behave the same). They made light of the call and dealt with their own affairs. Now anyone can come. Jesus followed the Luke account withe cost of discipleship and the rewards for receiving or rejecting the call.

Very true. The lesson which the parable offers is that Jesus came with a message which the Jews rejected. Jesus now explains in the parable why they must turn to the gentiles, as you point out. Does this represent a change of heart by God?

Alive_Again · Apr 16, 2012

Very true. The lesson which the parable offers is that Jesus came with a message which the Jews rejected. Jesus now explains in the parable why they must turn to the gentiles, as you point out. Does this represent a change of heart by God?

God's plan from the beginning was to offer salvation to all men. We see this in a number of OT passages...

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isaiah 11:10

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isaiah 42:6-7

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isaiah 49:6

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Isaiah 60:1-5

And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Matt 12:21

And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing.
Psalms 64:9

The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:7

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:32

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:30

Our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:11-12

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 5:18

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 2:3-4

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:11

Of course all men won't be saved, but all men have the provision for salvation available and are called to repent and believe.

In one sense, you might consider that He had a change of heart, because His own people rejected Him, and He is using the Gentiles to provoke them to jealousy, however, He has known this all along.

mark kennedy · Apr 17, 2012

DennisTate said:
After teaching English in Quito, Ecuador for over a year I returned home to Canada determined to be more socially and politically active. I ran for public office as an independent three times and joined one of Canada's Political Parties in 2009.

Here in Canada the provincial level of government has jurisdiction over education and i believe that it is possible to write up a number of variations on Theistic Evolutionary Theory that actually could end up being taught in schools within a few years or decades.

I personally could not write such a text book but this blog could be used to get some people together who could handle such a project.

Dogmatic Atheists Lack Mathematical Aptitude.

In a sense I am taking this verse in Genesis much further than it usually is taken:

Genesis 1:27

How does human life start?

Well, as a spermatozoa that could perhaps be compared with a Super String and with a ova that could perhaps be compared with Super Energetic Matter or Super Wave?!

If your a theistic evolutionist then you believe in God as Creator. If you believe that hearing the Gospel, you are marked with the seal of the Holy Spirit and become a new creature in Christ you are a Creationist.

I like how Mathew Henry expressed it, and I'm paraphrasing somewhat. 'Man is a clod of clay and a beam of light, at birth they are joined and at death they are separated for the power beyond the grave'. I would hasten to add, at the resurrection they are either recreated in the perfect image of the Creator or they are consigned to the fires of perdition.

We should think and speak purposely, clearly and prayerfully of these things always mindful that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:1-5)

Grace and peace,
Mark

DennisTate · Apr 17, 2012

Alive_Again said:
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:3 (KJV)

[.........

If someone wants to find evidence of God in the Earth (actually seeing the invisible things of Him in creation as spoken of in Romans, he needs a seeking, submissive, humble heart. God gives everyone a chance (many chances), but He will not continually cast His pearls before swine. So the heart condition is everything to enable "convincing" somone (seeing/hearing) that God exists and can be known through Jesus alone.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard?
Romans 10:16-18

.......
]

Well said Alive_Again:

As you can guess I was pretty amazed over twenty years ago when I read the NDE of Dr. George Ritchie that talked about four invisible space-time dimensions. Dr. Ritchie had his NDE in 1943 long before String Theory was relatively common knowledge.

George Ritchie - near-death experiences

Suddenly, Jesus appears emitting a tremendous light and love. George's entire life appears before him. Jesus asks, "What have you done with your life?" He realizes Jesus is not judging him, but he is judging himself.

Jesus gives him a tour of four different dimensions in the afterlife. They both fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. He witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to obtain a cigarette from the workers who are oblivious to her presence. This woman died severely addicted to cigarettes.

In a house, Jesus shows him the spirit of a boy following a living teenage girl and begging for forgiveness while the girl is completely unaware of the boy's presence. Jesus tells George that the boy committed suicide and is "chained to every consequence of his act."

Jesus shows George a bar filled with sailors who are heavily drinking. Spirits try desperately and in vain to get a drink or to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. These spirits are from humans who die severely alcoholic. He is horrified as he observes a drunken sailor pass out and an alcoholic spirit jump into the body of the sailor.

Jesus takes him to a new dimension away from Earth and shows him a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of their beliefs. These are spirits who believe they must sleep after death until Jesus returns.

Jesus shows him a dimension where angry spirits are locked in hand-to-hand combat, trying in vain to hurt each other. He hears verbal abuse going on. He observes some trying in vain to get sexual gratification from each other. He also sees spirits arguing over some religious or political point and trying to kill the ones who did not agree with them. Here, he realizes he is seeing hell. These are spirits who are locked into some earthly desire that went beyond the physical and which cannot be satisfied in the spirit.

He is then taken to a different dimension appearing like an enormous university. Here he observes people dressed as monks engaged in some form of artistic behavior or research. He is taken into an enormous library where all the important books of the universe are assembled. He asks Jesus if this is heaven. He replies that these are the people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth. George realizes these people cannot see Jesus, just as the others could not see him in hell.

DennisTate · Apr 17, 2012

mark kennedy said:
If your a theistic evolutionist then you believe in God as Creator. If you believe that hearing the Gospel, you are marked with the seal of the Holy Spirit and become a new creature in Christ you are a Creationist.

I like how Mathew Henry expressed it, and I'm paraphrasing somewhat. 'Man is a clod of clay and a beam of light, at birth they are joined and at death they are separated for the power beyond the grave'. I would hasten to add, at the resurrection they are either recreated in the perfect image of the Creator or they are consigned to the fires of perdition.

We should think and speak purposely, clearly and prayerfully of these things always mindful that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:1-5)

Grace and peace,
Mark

Thanks Mark!

Several years ago a good friend of mine forwarded me a message from a Pastor Rick Joyner who claims to have had a visionary dream where he visited heaven. I personally found his account profoundly inspiring and it has helped me a lot to get out of the old excessive belief in "soul sleep" that I had been taught when I was a teenager!

I recommend scrolling down to the part entitled The Judgment Seat of Christ....
The Hordes of Hell are Marching

I then noticed someone I had known on earth. He had been a faithful believer, but I did not think he had done anything of significance. He was so physically unattractive on earth that it had made him shy. Here he had the same features, but was somehow more handsome than any person I had known on earth. He stepped up to me with an assurance and dignity that I had never seen in him, or anyone, before.

"Heaven is much greater than we could have dreamed while on earth," he began. "This room is but the threshold of realms of glory that are far beyond the ability we had to comprehend. It is also true that the second death is much more terrible than we understood. Neither heaven or hell are like we thought they were. If I had known on earth what I know here I would not have lived the way that I did. You are blessed with a great grace to have come here before you have died." he said while looking at my garments.

I then looked at myself. I still had the old mantle of humility on, with the armor under it. I felt both foul and crude standing before those who were so regal and beautiful. I began to think that I was in serious trouble if I was going to appear before the Lord like this. Like the eagles, my old acquaintance could understand my thoughts, and he replied to them:

"Those who come here wearing that mantle have nothing to fear. That mantle is the highest rank of honor, and it is why they all bowed to you while you passed."

"I did not notice anyone bowing to me," I replied, a bit disconcerted.

"It is not improper," he continued. "Here we show each other the respect that is due. Even the angles serve us here, but only our God and His Christ are worshiped."

I was still ashamed. I had to retrain myself to keep from bowing to these glorious ones, while at the same time wanting to hide myself because I looked so bad. Then I began lamenting the fact that my thoughts here were just as foolish here as they were one earth, and here everyone knew them! I felt both stained and stupid standing before these who were so awesome and pure. Again my old acquaintance responded to these thoughts.

"We have our incorruptible bodies now, and you do not. Our minds are no longer hindered by sin. We are therefore able to comprehend many times what even the greatest earthly mind can fathom, and we will spend eternity growing in our ability to understand. This is so that we can know the Father, and understand the glory of His creation. On earth you cannot even begin to understand what the least of these here know, and we are the least of those here."

Izdaari Eristikon · Apr 17, 2012

I'm afraid I lack the background in math and physics to even begin to understand the science the OP refers to. But it's an interesting thought. I am in no position to judge its validity.

DennisTate · Apr 17, 2012

Izdaari said:
I'm afraid I lack the background in math and physics to even begin to understand the science the OP refers to. But it's an interesting thought. I am in no position to judge its validity.

Thank you Izdaari!

I actually am in absolutely no position to do much of anything specific with this idea myself either...but I was hoping that I might be able to get in contact with somebody who could write a text book that elaborated which could even be used in a reality or semi-reality film project that studied the effect of ID theory in combination with NDE accounts on the psychology of some young people who perhaps are struggling with depression?!

After teaching English in Quito, Ecuador for over a year I returned home to Canada determined to become more socially active. I have already ran for public office as an independent three times. Here in Canada it is the provincial level of government that would have jurisdiction over introducing a text book on ID Theory!

DennisTate · May 6, 2012

Alive_Again said:
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:3 (KJV)

People must "hear" and "see" with their heart to receive the gospel, to believe that things on the Earth pertain to a creator God.

The scripture points to a blindness of heart that occurs which obscures this spiritual dimension where God reigns.

Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:17-18

........
So to "hear" you must have these heart conditions and the Spirit Word of life. This is the seed that enters the heart.[/B] The heart should seek to remove itself from the cares of the world to be able to grow and take root. To understand and see takes someone humble who is looking and listening with their spiritual eyes and ears.

Many scientists tend to be "humbled" by the immensity of the universe!

The ones who think deeply on the assertion by Dr. Albert Einstein that infinite smallness is just as theoretically possible as infinite bigness would also be humbled by the implications of this.

Could a white blood cell or killer T-cell have a level of consciousness that could be to some degree compared with King David or his mighty men as they were battling the Philistines????!!

Alive_Again · May 7, 2012

For anyone who is interested, there is a DVD that is watchable online, broken down into sections called "The God of Wonders". It shows various things in the world and mankind that undeniably point to a creator, and to anyone looking for a clear presentation of our God in His creation, give it a quick visit. The DVD is really cheap and is a great gift to unbelievers.

Alive_Again · May 7, 2012

I forgot to mention the other DVD (also watchable online) called "A Question of Origins" is a must watch too.

This is the description of the video from the website. Watching this is free, so it's not a commercial plug, but rather a terrific resource available for all here and to those we know we can point them to that will give them a LOT to think about.

"Understanding mankind's true origin is essential in determining one's final destiny. This visually rich, full production presents conclusive evidence that the universe and all life were created. In addition, scientific foreknowledge found only in the Bible reveals that the God of the Bible is the Creator. A Question of Origins is essential viewing for anyone who has questions or doubts concerning the scientific accuracy of the Word of God. A great witnessing tool intended for our current generation."

DennisTate · May 7, 2012

Alive_Again said:
For anyone who is interested, there is a DVD that is watchable online, broken down into sections called "The God of Wonders". It shows various things in the world and mankind that undeniably point to a creator, and to anyone looking for a clear presentation of our God in His creation, give it a quick visit. The DVD is really cheap and is a great gift to unbelievers.

Listening to it right now...impressive!

Theistic Evolutionary Theory, could our Creator have evolved/learned?

Are you open to idea of the Creator learning, experimenting and in a way evolving?

We humans can learn and we are made in the image of God so....

God absolutely knew everything from eternity in the past and had zero need to learn.!

This is a new idea to me but is an improvement over extreme skepticism and atheism!

It is worthwhile to consider this theory if it can result in our kids being taught ID.

This idea is profoundly offensive to me! This is a blasphemy!

This would seem to fit with String Theory, The Anthropic Principle and Cyclic Model of the Universe.

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