Theistic Evolution and death

[-57]

Man evolved as animal, but God placed His image on Him at some point and man became a living soul with the capacity to have a deep and meaningful relationship with God.

Where is this in the bible?

 

[-57]

snipped

As I stated previously, the Garden story is representative in it's literary nature. This means it paints a picture of spiritual meaning for us to ponder before the face of God as He has revealed it through the Jewish people; it is not providing us with a photographic type snapshot of "history as it was." The merely physical reality is that we evolved from earlier life-forms; the Garden story, on the other hand, was given by early Jews and/or Moses to inform readers of revelation about God and how to relate with Him, which is a part of metaphysical reality. The Bible was not written to answer all questions, and problems come most when we try to believe that it was written to answer all questions, or that its ancient pages contain some kind of mystical protection or that it imparts some kind of epistemic infallibility and/or ultra-literalism.

If you want to read some materials by Christians who align with what I'm suggesting to you, then you might try checking out BioLogos.org.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

The account of Genesis is presented as historical and literal in the bible. Groups like BioLogos are heretical and do much damage to original sin and the need for a savior. Much ex-tra biblical concepts are required for their religion of evolutionism to merge with scripture.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The account of Genesis is presented as historical and literal in the bible. Groups like BioLogos are heretical and do much damage to original sin and the need for a savior. Much ex-tra biblical concepts are required for their religion of evolutionism to merge with scripture.

Yep. There's was a talking snake, for sure.

 

[-57]

Yep. There's was a talking snake, for sure.

As I said....you have a need to change scripture. Begone serpent....you didn't deceive Eve. You wern't real....even Eve wasn't real.

Yes 2PhiloVoid, you must remove the truth from the bible and fill the void with make believe bible.

 

[Everybodyknows]

I've noticed that when you incorporate Theo-Evoism into the bible, much of the bible has to be re-written to include concepts that are not in the bible.

For instance the whole new means as to how and why mankind has a sin nature has to be invented.

The concept of sin and death spreading because of one man has to be changed from one man to a population.

The linage of Jesus Christ presented in the gospels has to be changed...starting as fact and ending as fiction.

Pauls direction to the women in Timothy would be based upon a myth rather than a literal Genesis.

Adam would not be the 7th from Enoch....because there would be no Adam.

Thanks for joining the discussion here. I'm curious what your position is on creation? Are you young earth, old earth, gap theory or some other?

Also I'm interested in your view of animal death before the fall?

BTW many theistic evolutionists believe in a literal Adam and Eve who brought sin into the world. So not necessarily a problem with the genealogy, although I must mention there are two lineages of Jesus which differ presented in the gospels.

 

[Armoured]

Where is this in the bible?

right next to the bit about the Trinity.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Where is this in the bible?

The axioms of mathematics aren't in the bible, does that make them untrue? A more important question: can you make a strong case evolution is false from the bible?

Nevertheless here it is:
1. Man evolved as animal (Compare Genesis 2:7 to Genesis 1:20-26)

2. but God placed His image on Him at some point (Genesis 1:26; Genesis 2:15 implies God took man from somewhere to the Garden of Eden - man was outside of the Garden evolving from dust but without God's image so God took man and breathed spiritual life into him and placed him in the Garden)

3. and man became a living soul (Genesis 2:7)

4. with the capacity to have a deep and meaningful relationship with God (Genesis 2:16-17; Genesis 3:8-9; Ephesians 1:17)

 

[Everybodyknows]

I think our minds work alike -- we seem to be on the same page. I think chimps in particular seem to be on the verge of making a significant step forward in their evolution -- they have started making spears, as well as doing things that, if we humans were doing them, can only be described as religious. We've known for a long time that they have a basic sense of justice. The other pillar of morality is empathy. IF as you say they have made progress with that, then they have developed a basic moral sense. Where there is morality, there is sin.

Anyone who has ever owned a dog will certainly tell you animals are capable of empathy (but not cats ).

If another sentient being has arisen that has "fallen" and in need of salvation, obviously God would have his own unique plan for that species. How would present religions deal with this? My guess is that many will be profoundly threatened by the idea that we are not alone in our moral capacity, and simply deny that this is the case. Of course, this is all theoretical at this time. It's going to take more studies and analysis by greater minds than yours and mine.

I think religions traditionally have viewed man as distinct to animals, but when we look at the behaviors of intelligent animals it brings a certain fuzziness to how we view things like morality and free will.

Do you know your Myers Briggs Type? I'm just wondering who else besides me cares about the moral development of other primates...

It was a long time ago, I think I was INFP of INFJ.

 

[Open Heart]

It was a long time ago, I think I was INFP of INFJ.

No wonder we think so much alike!! I'm glad I asked.

I'm afraid you are right about cats having no empathy. I love cats to absolute death. But if they had an ounce of empathy they wouldn't jump on your lap when you're sitting on the toilet.

 

[Armoured]

No wonder we think so much alike!! I'm glad I asked.

I'm afraid you are right about cats having no empathy. I love cats to absolute death. But if they had an ounce of empathy they wouldn't jump on your lap when you're sitting on the toilet.

I think cats have empathy. They understand the emotions of other creatures, they just don't care.

(that's a joke. Anecdotal, I know, but my wife's cat used to hang around her, follow her from room to room when she was feeling unwell. Only time he would "cuddle", too. Any other time he would demand to be let outside and want nothing to do with people.)

 

[Everybodyknows]

I think cats have empathy. They understand the emotions of other creatures, they just don't care.

(that's a joke. Anecdotal, I know, but my wife's cat used to hang around her, follow her from room to room when she was feeling unwell. Only time he would "cuddle", too. Any other time he would demand to be let outside and want nothing to do with people.)

Hehe. The caring part is the empathy

 

[-57]

Thanks for joining the discussion here. I'm curious what your position is on creation? Are you young earth, old earth, gap theory or some other?

Also I'm interested in your view of animal death before the fall?

BTW many theistic evolutionists believe in a literal Adam and Eve who brought sin into the world. So not necessarily a problem with the genealogy, although I must mention there are two lineages of Jesus which differ presented in the gospels.

I would be YEC.

Did animals die prior to the fall? I believe the bible is silent. I do know the first mention of an animals death is the one God used to make cloathing foe Adam and Eve. Many believe that is why Adam and Eve didn't die as the animal took their place....a type of Christ.

Typically a Theo-Evo believes there was no Adam and Eve....rather they were representations from the mythological parable. If they believe they were historical and literal then what happens to Adams father? Is Adams father guilty for Adams sin? How about the rest of the population that preceeded Adam or the population currently alive at the time of Adam? Ex-tra biblical material is required to tell of them.

Concerning the two linages quoted in the gospel, one linage belongs to Joe and the other linage belongs to mary.

 

[-57]

right next to the bit about the Trinity.

The bible does mention the three persons of the Trinity as God or associates divine character to each one of the 3.
This would mean I fail to see your point as the bible doesn't even hint at evolutionism as the mechanism to create man.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

As I said....you have a need to change scripture. Begone serpent....you didn't deceive Eve. You wern't real....even Eve wasn't real.

Yes 2PhiloVoid, you must remove the truth from the bible and fill the void with make believe bible.

Oh, Baloney, -57! All human writing is, to various extents, representative; and some of it is even figurative. Do you understand the difference between "representative" and "figurative"?

If you really believed in talking snakes, then to be consistent, you should likely believe that they, as a created "kind" of animal, would have made it onto Noah's Ark and been perpetuated as a species afterwards. But, we don't find any talking snakes in the animal kingdom. None in the post-deluvian history of the Bible, none in world history apart from the Bible, and no sign of them today. Do we?

No, the Garden Story is a God-given poetic rebuke of pluralistic paganism, the sort of multi-god belief that was extent at the time during which the first few chapters of Genesis were written. So, don't give me this, "Oh, you're a heretic, 2PhiloVoid." I'm not saying anything which diminishes the value of the book of Genesis. If anything, you need to be a little bit more charitable.

 

[-57]

The axioms of mathematics aren't in the bible, does that make them untrue? A more important question: can you make a strong case evolution is false from the bible?

I can make an extremely strong case. The bible tells us Adam was formed first 1 Tim 2:3 then Eve. We also know the account presented in Genesis has Adam being formed first then Eve being created from Adams rib. As I said this is an extremely strong case evolutionism isn't in the bible.

To add to that Genesis 3:20 informs us Eve was the mother of all living people. Evolutionism would tell us Eve had a mother and father which would contradict that biblical statement.

Nevertheless here it is:
1. Man evolved as animal (Compare Genesis 2:7 to Genesis 1:20-26)

OK, I did. It tells me God formed from the dust. It doesn't say from the animals God formed man. If God used evolutionism, then why not simply say so?
Secondly, the bible has birds formed prior to mammals....which contradicts evolutionism.

2. but God placed His image on Him at some point (Genesis 1:26; Genesis 2:15 implies God took man from somewhere to the Garden of Eden - man was outside of the Garden evolving from dust but without God's image so God took man and breathed spiritual life into him and placed him in the Garden)

It's you who added the word "evolution" from dust to the Word of God.

The part that makes no sense is that women wasn't made until after man was placed into the garden. Did males have children with other males until females were made?

3. and man became a living soul (Genesis 2:7)

Yes, Adam became a living soul. To say God breathed into a population of people..prior to the creatiuon of women....is kinda strange and adds ex-tra biblical material to the bible.

4. with the capacity to have a deep and meaningful relationship with God (Genesis 2:16-17; Genesis 3:8-9; Ephesians 1:17)

How did the entire population fall and hide in the garden? You used Genesis 3:8-9 in your post...can you explain?

 

[-57]

Oh, Baloney, -57! All human writing is, to various extents, representative; and some of it is even figurative. Do you understand the difference between "representative" and "figurative"?

If you really believed in talking snakes, then to be consistent, you should likely believe that they, as a created "kind" of animal, would have made it onto Noah's Ark and been perpetuated as a species afterwards. But, we don't find any talking snakes in the animal kingdom. None in the post-deluvian history of the Bible, none in world history apart from the Bible, and no sign of them today. Do we?

No, the Garden Story is a God-given poetic rebuke of pluralistic paganism, the sort of multi-god belief that was extent at the time during which the first few chapters of Genesis were written. So, don't give me this, "Oh, you're a heretic, 2PhiloVoid." I'm not saying anything which diminishes the value of the book of Genesis. If anything, you need to be a little bit more charitable.

Do I believe in talking snakes? No. Do I believe the snakes in the garden could talk? Once again no.

Do I believe Satan had something to do with allowing this creature to talk? Absolutely. I believe Satan spoke through this creature. How exactly? The bible is silent.

Is there other places in the bible where animals talked? The answer is yes. Numbers 22:28 tells us....
Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”

...and yes, you are diminishing Genesis. You change the reason for the fall of Adam and Eve and fill in the blanks with extra biblical materal. You change the account and distort the bible when you introduce evolutionism between the lines. You force the bible to say what it doesn't say.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Do I believe in talking snakes? No. Do I believe the snakes in the garden could talk? Once again no.

Do I believe Satan had something to do with allowing this creature to talk? Absolutely. I believe Satan spoke through this creature. How exactly? The bible is silent.

So, where does the Bible literally say that Satan "spoke" through the snake ... aren't you reading something into the Garden Story that it itself doesn't specifically say, but you have to interpret this by gathering various but still non-explicit pieces from the rest of the Bible and read these BACK INTO the Garden Story?

Is there other places in the bible where animals talked? The answer is yes. Numbers 22:28 tells us....
Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”

You said there are other place(S) where animals talk. Ok. There's the talking donkey. That's one! Now, where are the other(S)? You did say "places," didn't you?

...and yes, you are diminishing Genesis. You change the reason for the fall of Adam and Eve and fill in the blanks with extra biblical materal. You change the account and distort the bible when you introduce evolutionism between the lines. You force the bible to say what it doesn't say.

Again, you need to take a step back and stop this heresy hunt. Stop pointing fingers at other Christians who have a little different approach to the Bible but still uphold the basic values God has instilled through the writing. I haven't "changed" any reason for the Fall anymore than Conrad Hyers did; I believe still that Satan has tempted humanity as a whole, and I believe humanity has consistently turned away from God, which the Garden Story "represents." Humanity has always been in need of a Savior, which we find in Christ. So, again, stop your finger pointing, and especially your implication that people like me aren't Christian.

I think your problem is that your interpretive framework, and your hermeneutics and exegesis in general, is ultra stiff, and you think the Bible was meant to give us every detail about God's truth that could possibly be received by the human mind. Well, we both know that ain't the case, the Bible indicates there is hidden knowledge that belongs to God, and we both know that the Bible says nothing about evolution. I don't think it's too much to say that evolution, being a physical phenomenon in the world, has been a part of the hidden knowledge that God keeps for Himself. And, if you've noticed, I do not interpret the Biblical message as saying that it incorporates evolution. Of course it doesn't. The writer had no knowledge of evolution as a biological fact in the world. It was hidden from the writer and his message was geared instead to address the affirmation of ONE GOD who created the heavens and the earth, in opposition to the pagan belief that a plurality of gods dropped from the butt of the universe.

Remember, the Bible wasn't written in an ideological vacuum (but that is how ultra-fundamentalists often treat the Bible).

 

[-57]

So, where does the Bible literally say that Satan "spoke" through the snake ... aren't you reading something into the Garden Story that it itself doesn't specifically say, but you have to interpret this by gathering various but still non-explicit pieces from the rest of the Bible and read these BACK INTO the Garden Story?

You said there are other place(S) where animals talk. Ok. There's the talking donkey. That's one! Now, where are the other(S)? You did say "places," didn't you?

Again, you need to take a step back and stop this heresy hunt. Stop pointing fingers at other Christians who have a little different approach to the Bible but still uphold the basic values God has instilled through the writing. I haven't "changed" any reason for the Fall anymore than Conrad Hyers did; I believe still that Satan has tempted humanity as a whole, and I believe humanity has consistently turned away from God, which the Garden Story "represents." Humanity has always been in need of a Savior, which we find in Christ. So, again, stop your finger pointing, and especially your implication that people like me aren't Christian.

I think your problem is that your interpretive framework, and your hermeneutics and exegesis in general, is ultra stiff, and you think the Bible was meant to give us every detail about God's truth that could possibly be received by the human mind. Well, we both know that ain't the case, the Bible indicates there is hidden knowledge that belongs to God, and we both know that the Bible says nothing about evolution. I don't think it's too much to say that evolution, being a physical phenomenon in the world, has been a part of the hidden knowledge that God keeps for Himself. And, if you've noticed, I do not interpret the Biblical message as saying that it incorporates evolution. Of course it doesn't. The writer had no knowledge of evolution as a biological fact in the world. It was hidden from the writer and his message was geared instead to address the affirmation of ONE GOD who created the heavens and the earth, in opposition to the pagan belief that a plurality of gods dropped from the butt of the universe.

Remember, the Bible wasn't written in an ideological vacuum (but that is how ultra-fundamentalists often treat the Bible).

I'm just pointing fingers at christians that change the bible to make if conform to the religion of evolutionism.

When you change the bible to conform to evolutionism you change the reason for the gospel. You cause the bible to contradict established scripture. If evolutionism is true then sin and death didn't spread via one man.
Acts 17:26 bcomes FALSE if man populated earth via evolutionism.
And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

 

[Everybodyknows]

I would be YEC.

Did animals die prior to the fall? I believe the bible is silent. I do know the first mention of an animals death is the one God used to make cloathing foe Adam and Eve. Many believe that is why Adam and Eve didn't die as the animal took their place....a type of Christ.

So does that leave you open to the possibility of animal death before the fall?

If they believe they were historical and literal then what happens to Adams father?

Presumably he dies in the same way as all the animals before him

Is Adams father guilty for Adams sin?

No. Without a soul he would have had no sense of sin or morality (this seems to be the majority view anyway). But this is a very interesting question and I've raised some issues about this too.

How about the rest of the population that preceeded Adam or the population currently alive at the time of Adam? Ex-tra biblical material is required to tell of them.

Good question again. TEs are comfortable with incorporating extra biblical material alongside scripture to inform our world view. Even creationists use extra biblical material to a degree. E.g. You probably don't hold the flat earth under a dome world view that the author of genesis did.

Concerning the two linages quoted in the gospel, one linage belongs to Joe and the other linage belongs to mary.

This is a common view but I don't buy it. Both lineages are through Joseph. Luke 3:23 we have Heli as father of Joseph and Matthew 1:16 we have Jacob as father of Joseph.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I can make an extremely strong case. The bible tells us Adam was formed first 1 Tim 2:3 then Eve. We also know the account presented in Genesis has Adam being formed first then Eve being created from Adams rib. As I said this is an extremely strong case evolutionism isn't in the bible.

How is this incongruent with evolution? Perhaps Adam became a living soul in the image of God before Eve.

To add to that Genesis 3:20 informs us Eve was the mother of all living people. Evolutionism would tell us Eve had a mother and father which would contradict that biblical statement.

Could Eve not be the mother of all spiritually living people?

It tells me God formed from the dust. It doesn't say from the animals God formed man. If God used evolutionism, then why not simply say so?

It is unclear who wrote Genesis and how that person received their information to write down. My own inclination is that Moses wrote Genesis thousands of years after mankind were formed in God's image. I believe Moses received his information from many sources including dreams and visions God gave him. Moses most probably used local knowledge from Egypt and other nations and combined it with his spiritual insight to put together the Genesis polemic against those pagan ideas. With this in mind, it makes more sense to me to read Genesis allegorically and quite loosely. It also makes sense that God gave Moses snapshots of how the world got to where it was through dreams and visions so as to present Who God is more accurately. Perhaps God would show the fish and then the vision would go black, and then God would show some other animals etc. Hence Moses interpreted literal days while God was actually taking snapshots millions of years apart (Moses would not have understood a timeline over billions of years). So it makes sense that from dust came the evolution of life culminating in mankind and that it would not be written down in a precise way. How would have God presented evolution to Moses? By showing a cell transition through multiple stages of life over billions of years until it morphed into a man? Moses wouldn't have even known what to write down; not to mention it would be wrong to just morph things together.

The part that makes no sense is that women wasn't made until after man was placed into the garden. Did males have children with other males until females were made?

Two possibilities I know of (obviously there are more). First, it may be a reference to the fact that God gave Adam a spiritual nature first and then Eve second. Alternatively, perhaps Adam evolved first into a spiritual being and Eve second.

Yes, Adam became a living soul. To say God breathed into a population of people..prior to the creatiuon of women....is kinda strange and adds ex-tra biblical material to the bible.

God may have breathed a soul into the single man, Adam; or He may have taken a generation called the Adam generation. Either view has its own merits. I lean towards a literal man, Adam. But I am not dogmatic on the issue.

How did the entire population fall and hide in the garden? You used Genesis 3:8-9 in your post...can you explain?

I don't think of an entire population falling and hiding in the garden. I think of Adam and Eve living in a literal Garden of Eden, as a physical place on the earth. The Garden of Eden would have been a spiritually and physically perfect place where God had 100% access. Outside of the Garden I think the earth was going through a spiritual war between God and the devil, hence the death and sickness so rampant in the evolutionary process and the fossil record. However Adam and Eve were given the job of extending the borders of the Garden of Eden over the whole earth, in communion with God they would reclaim it. God would work through Adam and Eve to win the war over the devil and cast him out completely. When Adam and Eve sinned, the spiritual connection with God was severed. They were no longer one in spirit. God wondered where they had gone? He had to send them out of the Garden and bring His kingdom into the earth another way. This is why Jesus came and preached the kingdom. Did I answer your question?