The worst thing about Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Willingness to hear. (Free gift)

Word that is preached. (Free gift)

Assurance (faith) that word is true. (Free gift)

Believing & confessing follows the above.

While all the first three are free gifts of God how can one say that he is saved because he believed & confessed?

Believing & confessing are done because one is saved & not to be saved.

You are only parroting what you were taught in Calvinism and you are not just reading and believing the Bible all on it's own. God would be immoral if He forced people to be saved and damned others not to be saved unconditionally.

 

[Hammster]

You are only parroting what you were taught in Calvinism and you are not just reading and believing the Bible all on it's own. God would be immoral if He forced people to be saved and damned others not to be saved unconditionally.

Nobody is forced to be saved. To keep repeating that is disingenuous.

 

[Si_monfaith]

You are only parroting what you were taught in Calvinism and you are not just reading and believing the Bible all on it's own. God would be immoral if He forced people to be saved and damned others not to be saved unconditionally.

I am not a Calvinist and was not taught in Calvinism.

The unelected are also not free. They are ruled by sin (Rom 5:21) and sin works through them (rom 7:17).

The unelected are not punished. They are amorally discarded just like vessels by His freewill choice. They appear to be punished as people see through the law/kge. Kge (knowledge of good and evil) was not His will. Instead see through Grace apart from human freewill and works.

 

[bling]

Will Christians in heaven be able to reject Christ? Or will their freewill to reject Christ be taken away?

Will those in the lake of fire have freewill to accept Christ? Or will their freewill be taken away?

This seems off topic but I will address them:

First off: Every knee will bow and “acknowledge” the existence of Christ as Deity, but that will not “save” those that go to hell. For those that go to hell accepting God charity would be like putting a gun to the person’s head and saying Love me or else. A forced Love is not a Godly type Love. They had their opportunity on earth to make a truly free will choice to accept or reject God’s charity and they refused, so that choice has been taken away from them. They will realize what they did and blame only themselves.

In Heaven you still have free will (like the angels, some of whom rebelled against God).

When you say: “Reject Christ”, what are you talking about, Christ is in your presence helping you in the form of the Spirit which you now can see and tough 24/7?

The tree of knowledge or something similar is not there to tempt you, satan is no longer around and you have experience with both sin and satan, so there is no temptation to learn about evil.

Lots of temptations can go back to the conflicts sexuality creates, yet that goes away by no longer being a sexual being.

God has given us everything, so what is there to covet?

To be like God comes with having Godly type Love (unselfish) like God, so do you desire to be even more unselfish (OK, but is that something to covet?)

Sin is needed on earth to help humans initially fulfill their earthly objective, so God does not arrange earth to be a place to avoid sinning, but sin is not needed in heaven, so everything is there to help you avoid sinning.

 

[RisenInJesus]

It's amusing how you go on about context, but then quote verses (or parts of verses) out of context.

And Calvinists don't limit the atonement. Like in the OT, where the atonement was for those whom it was intended for, we believe the atonement is for God's people. What we don't have to do is to say that on one hand, God's wrath was satisfied, and on the other, it wasn't. That cheapens Christ's work on the cross.

I only quoted portions of verses to save time and space...assuming you knew the context or could look up the passage, if need be. From now on I will post entire verses and/or passages.

From everything I have read and the comments made on this forum by Calvinists it certainly appears that Calvinists limit the atonement. In the OT, the sacrifices were atonement for the whole nation of Israel and all the people, including anyone who joined themselves with Israel. How is it even remotely possible to cheapen the work of Christ on the cross to believe He died for the sins of the world which includes everyone? That is the plain message of the Bible. The language throughout the scriptures use terms like everyone, whoever, all, every man, whole world, etc. It is only Calvinists who must say these words mean something other than their plain meaning in order to and for the purpose of limiting the atonement to a certain group. The Bible is just as clear that God's wrath is completely satisfied in Christ, yet those who reject Christ and remain outside of Him do not have the righteousness of Christ applied ti their life and therefore are not delivered from God's wrath. There is no contradiction and I fine it astonishing that you do not comprehend this basic biblical reality.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nobody is forced to be saved. To keep repeating that is disingenuous.

So they have free will in regards to choosing their salvation then?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not a Calvinist and was not taught in Calvinism.

The unelected are also not free. They are ruled by sin (Rom 5:21) and sin works through them (rom 7:17).

The unelected are not punished. They are amorally discarded just like vessels by His freewill choice. They appear to be punished as people see through the law/kge. Kge (knowledge of good and evil) was not His will. Instead see through Grace apart from human freewill and works.

Do you believe God chooses some for salvation based on no conditions whatsoever when He has the power to save them all?

Do you know about the five points of Calvinism?

 

[Hammster]

So they have free will in regards to choosing their salvation then?

Yes.

 

[Hammster]

I only quoted portions of verses to save time and space...assuming you knew the context or could look up the passage, if need be. From now on I will post entire verses and/or passages.

From everything I have read and the comments made on this forum by Calvinists it certainly appears that Calvinists limit the atonement. In the OT, the sacrifices were atonement for the whole nation of Israel and all the people, including anyone who joined themselves with Israel. How is it even remotely possible to cheapen the work of Christ on the cross to believe He died for the sins of the world which includes everyone? That is the plain message of the Bible. The language throughout the scriptures use terms like everyone, whoever, all, every man, whole world, etc. It is only Calvinists who must say these words mean something other than their plain meaning in order to and for the purpose of limiting the atonement to a certain group. The Bible is just as clear that God's wrath is completely satisfied in Christ, yet those who reject Christ and remain outside of Him do not have the righteousness of Christ applied ti their life and therefore are not delivered from God's wrath. There is no contradiction and I fine it astonishing that you do not comprehend this basic biblical reality.

Was the atonement limited in the OT?

 

[RisenInJesus]

Such as?

Such as God is pleased and saves those who express faith and belief in Him, His word, and His Son Jesus Christ. Throughout the scriptures this is shown to be the case and this is how God determines to save individuals, not by predestination.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Was the atonement limited in the OT?

Great point!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes.

Well, that is not the same thing I was saying (and you know it). You are saying that they choose God of their own free will after they are regenerated by God. But this is not free will but it is brainwashing. There is a difference. If God gave them a regeneration to have free will, then they will have the choice to accept Christ and or reject Christ. But that is not what you are saying because you think they do not have the capacity to reject Christ. This means that they are brainwashed to be a certain way only. They have no choice in regards to their decision with the Lord. They really do not have free will. They are brainwashed.

 

[Hammster]

Such as God is pleased and saves those who express faith and belief in Him, His word, and His Son Jesus Christ. Throughout the scriptures this is shown to be the case and this is how God determines to save individuals, not by predestination.

Yes, we are justified by faith. That should be a given. But for God to determine something in regards to salvation makes Him subject to man's decisions, and also means He must learn something.

That's not sovereign.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, we are justified by faith. That should be a given. But for God to determine something in regards to salvation makes Him subject to man's decisions, and also means He must learn something.

That's not sovereign.

Does sin make God angry?

 

[Hammster]

Well, that is not the same thing I was saying (and you know it). You are saying that they choose God of their own free will after they are regenerated by God. But this is not free will but it is brainwashing. There is a difference. If God gave them a regeneration to have free will, then they will have the choice to accept Christ and or reject Christ. But that is not what you are saying because you think they do not have the capacity to reject Christ. This means that they are brainwashed to be a certain way only. They have no choice in regards to their decision with the Lord. They really do not have free will. They are brainwashed.

It's not brainwashing. It's having the chains of slavery broken. It's freeing a sinner.

All you are doing is repeatedly posting straw men arguments. It's all you have.

 

[Hammster]

Does sin make God angry?

Yep.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yep.

Well, I suppose God is controlled by what men do then.

 

[Hammster]

Then I suppose God is controlled by what men do.

Nope.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's not brainwashing. It's having the chains of slavery broken. It's freeing a sinner.

So you believe a Christian can stop sinning?
Oh, and yes. It is brainwashing because the individual did not ask to be set free. They were forced to be a certain way without their approval. Free will is when a person has an actual choice.
A Calvinist does not believe that a saint has free will in regards to choosing God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nope.

If men sin and sin gets God angry, then God is controlled (or at least reacts) by what men do.
For did not God destroy the whole world with a global flood because of the wickedness of man?