The worst thing about Calvinism

[Hammster]

So you believe a Christian can stop sinning?
Oh, and yes. It is brainwashing because the individual did not ask to be set free. They were forced to be a certain way without their approval. Free will is when a person has an actual choice.
A Calvinist does not believe that a saint has free will in regards to choosing God.

There's no teaching of brainwashing in Reformed Theology. So you are just positing a straw man.

 

[RisenInJesus]

The definition is people in the world. The usage is hyperbolic, as I've stated over and over and over again.

And I suppose when you say "people in the world" you are limiting people to the elect? I know you have stated over and over you believe the word world in 1 Jn. 2:2 is used in a hyperbolic sense, but I cannot agree with you. The word "whole" before world reveals that the meaning is everyone, all people of the world.

 

[Hammster]

If men sin and sin gets God angry, then God is controlled (or at least reacts) by what men do.
For did not God destroy the whole world with a global flood because of the wickedness of man?

It was all ordained by God. Even His wrath. He's not petulant, like you will be forced to paint Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There's no teaching of brainwashing in Reformed Theology. So you are just positing a straw man.

Brainwashing is when an individual is forced to be a certain way against their own free will.
God takes a Totally Depraved individual and forces them to be a slave to righteousness or He makes them forever saved (regardless of their sins).

 

[Hammster]

And I suppose when you say "people in the world" you are limiting people to the elect? I know you have stated over and over you believe the word world in 1 Jn. 2:2 is used in a hyperbolic sense, but I cannot agree with you. The word "whole" before world reveals that the meaning is everyone, all people of the world.

Which leaves you with a contradiction since He can't have His wrath satisfied for people with whom His wrath remains.

 

[Hammster]

Brainwashing is when an individual is forced to be a certain way against their own free will.
God takes a Totally Depraved individual and forces them to be a slave to righteousness or He makes them forever saved (regardless of their sins).

Thanks for that definition. It proves that Reformed Theology does not teach brainwashing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It was all ordained by God. Even His wrath. He's not petulant, like you will be forced to paint Him.

So God is just play acting to a script of what He had spoken before the foundation of the world?

 

[Hammster]

So God is just play acting to a script of what He had spoken before the foundation of the world?

No.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks for that definition. It proves that Reformed Theology does not teach brainwashing.

Agreeing with your opponent is a tactic used to confuse your oponent.
I do not see how agreeing with your opponent in this case helps you.
You do not believe in free will in regards to a person choosing the Lord.
I have talked with Calvinists before and they freely admit to me there is no free will in choosing the Lord.
Not sure why you are not on the same page with them.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Yes, we are justified by faith. That should be a given. But for God to determine something in regards to salvation makes Him subject to man's decisions, and also means He must learn something.

That's not sovereign.

No, God is not subject to man at all, nor is His sovereignty in question or diminished at all simply because He has in His sovereign will designed it so humans may respond to or refuse His love. Only Calvinists have such a distorted understanding of God's sovereignty or feel they must somehow limit God's ability to allow freedom, as if He can't manage it or be sovereign on His terms rather than the Calvinistic system.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No.

So then God is honestly reacting in anger to man's sin. God is being influenced by what man does because man's sin makes Him angry. In other words, it would be like someone cutting you off in traffic and you get mad. Did not the person who cut you off make you mad? Did not their actions control or influence your emotions in some way?

 

[RisenInJesus]

Which leaves you with a contradiction since He can't have His wrath satisfied for people with whom His wrath remains.

The Bible is clear that God's wrath is completely satisfied in Christ, yet those who reject Christ and remain outside of Him do not have the righteousness of Christ applied to their life and therefore are not delivered from God's wrath. There is no contradiction and I find it astonishing that you do not comprehend this basic biblical reality.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Was the atonement limited in the OT?

The atonement in the OT was not limited. It was for the whole nation of Israel and all the people of Israel and anyone who joined themselves to Israel by faith.

 

[Si_monfaith]

You are only parroting what you were taught in Calvinism and you are not just reading and believing the Bible all on it's own. God would be immoral if He forced people to be saved and damned others not to be saved unconditionally.

Hebrews 12:
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Jason, If His grace appears to force you, do you have a problem?

 

[Si_monfaith]

The atonement in the OT was not limited. It was for the whole nation of Israel and all the people of Israel and anyone who joined themselves to Israel by faith.

God sent Jonah. Did the gentiles join by themselves without the Lord-given knowledge of atonement?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Do you believe God chooses some for salvation based on no conditions whatsoever when He has the power to save them all?

Do you know about the five points of Calvinism?

John 16

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Si_monfaith]

I agree punishing those prior to annihilation would not do anything for them, but what about those who have not yet decided to accept or not accept God's charity, would the threat of torture help some of them to not tarry with their decision? If God says torture is real for those who do not accept there is added reason to accept and God would also have to follow through on His threat?

Some religions like islam & pantheism believe in predeterminism. So those people in hell will think that they're in hell because it was predetermined.

Only those like judaists in hell will accuse themselves of their evil actions for being in hell.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Wow! That's the most rational and intellectually honest thing I've read from a person opposed to Calvinism.

That comment is predicated upon T as I've defined it. Removing that and we're left with a rather incoherent doctrine. Speaking of which...

Addressing the "T". As with all of the other letters, there are better ways to explain the doctrine. Total Depravity does not mean that one is as depraved as he could possibly be. It simply means that one is tainted in all parts. He is stained in mind, body, and spirit.

If that's so, here we have another instance of Protestants disagreeing about their very own doctrines.

Notwithstanding, I've seen Protestant commentators aplenty outright say that T means man is fundamentally incapable of choosing God and, more specifically, choosing not sin. That is, sin has removed any possibility of man affirmatively choosing God of his own free human will.

The Catholic perspective is that sin does bend our will... but not absolutely so. Yes, the taint is undeniable. But it isn't comprehensive. We are affected by sin but we still retain some extent of our freedom.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It is brainwashing because the individual did not ask to be set free. They were forced to be a certain way without their approval.

I was forced to be born when I was.
I was forced to be born in the US.
I was forced to be born in the state I was.
I was forced to have the parents I do.
I was forced to have the siblings I do
I was forced to have the aunts and uncles I do
I was forced to be the height I am
I was forced to have the amazing IQ I do (just to see if you were paying attention)

We are creatures. Being created was not our call. It was His. Your autonomy is a myth.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I've seen Protestant commentators aplenty outright say that T means man is fundamentally incapable of choosing God and, more specifically, choosing not sin. That is, sin has removed any possibility of man affirmatively choosing God of his own free human will.

That is true. Show me the man who does otherwise.