The worst thing about Calvinism

[jimmyjimmy]

For if I see somebody drowning and I choose to not save them

This is why you don't understand God's sovereignty in election. You see unregenerate man as a victim, not the perpetrator that he is.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is why you don't understand God's sovereignty in election. You see unregenerate man as a victim, not the perpetrator that he is.

So then babies are not saved then?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Then He is not sovereign. He is at the mercy of anyone with a "free will".

God is plenty sovereign with or without free willed creatues living in his universe.



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[jimmyjimmy]

So then babies are not saved then?


...

How are people saved from God's wrath? What does the Bible have to say about that?

 

[RadiantGrace]

This is why you don't understand God's sovereignty in election. You see unregenerate man as a victim, not the perpetrator that he is.

This is a good example of the logical fallacies which Calvinism requires. Calvinists believe that man is born totally depraved, unable to choose to cooperate with God's grace. Because no one can choose to accept grace, being totally depraved, God randomly decides to save people. In Calvinism, God sends people to hell because he chose to save them, while not saving others. God also sends people to hell because he chose not to save them. At no point did the person choose to be a sinner. They admit that. They admit God punishes people for being a sinner despite the fact they had no choice but to be a sinner.

There is no justice for God in Calvinism and this is why so many orthodox Christians reject the teachings of Calvin. There is nothing just about punishing a person when no personal choice is involved. So they respond by appealing to orthodox Christian views - that a person chooses to be a sinner. In this case, that you must think yourself the victim for your sins if you believe it is unjust for God to punish you for sin.

Yes, if you believe in orthodox Christianity, you are responsible for your sins. While you may be inclinded to sin because of the presence of sin in the world, the eternal grace of God is offered at every moment. You are given a choice between the inclination of the flesh, and the spiritual graces of God. But they appeal to something which does not exist for them. In Calvinism, humans aren't inclinded to sin, they are born to do nothing but sin. Humans receive no offer of grace from God at every moment of their existence. God only offers a moment of grace so overwhelming that you have no choice but to accept Him.

As an orthodox Christian, I accept the fact that I am both a victim of sin and a perpetrater of sin. I accept that on the day of judgment, God will consider what has been done to me and what I have done to others. I cannot accept that one can call God just if He rewards people in Heaven because He decided to save them, and send others to eternal suffering, because he chose not to free them from a slavery they were born into and had no choice but to live.

In Calvinism, all men are born slaves. Yet, they can never escape slavery, no matter how hard they try. God randomly decides to free men from slavery. On the day of their death, he sends slaves to hell, and free men to Heaven. Calvinists accept this fact and rather than openly admitting it, will utilize every logical fallacy to avoid admitting it.

As an orthodox Christian, I was not born a slave, with no choice to be a slave, only to be punished for being a slave.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

This is a good example of the logical fallacies which Calvinism requires. Calvinists believe that man is born totally depraved, unable to choose to cooperate with God's grace. Because no one can choose to accept grace, being totally depraved, God randomly decides to save people. In Calvinism, God sends people to hell because he chose to save them, while not saving others. God also sends people to hell because he chose not to save them. At no point did the person choose to be a sinner. They admit that. They admit God punishes people for being a sinner despite the fact they had no choice but to be a sinner.

There is no justice for God in Calvinism and this is why so many orthodox Christians reject the teachings of Calvin. There is nothing just about punishing a person when no personal choice is involved. So they respond by appealing to orthodox Christian views - that a person chooses to be a sinner. In this case, that you must think yourself the victim for your sins if you believe it is unjust for God to punish you for sin.

Yes, if you believe in orthodox Christianity, you are responsible for your sins. While you may be inclinded to sin because of the presence of sin in the world, the eternal grace of God is offered at every moment. You are given a choice between the inclination of the flesh, and the spiritual graces of God. But they appeal to something which does not exist for them. In Calvinism, humans aren't inclinded to sin, they are born to do nothing but sin. Humans receive no offer of grace from God at every moment of their existence. God only offers a moment of grace so overwhelming that you have no choice but to accept Him.

As an orthodox Christian, I accept the fact that I am both a victim of sin and a perpetrater of sin. I accept that on the day of judgment, God will consider what has been done to me and what I have done to others. I cannot accept that one can call God just if He rewards people in Heaven because He decided to save them, and send others to eternal suffering, because he chose not to free them from a slavery they were born into and had no choice but to live.

In Calvinism, all men are born slaves. Yet, they can never escape slavery, no matter how hard they try. God randomly decides to free men from slavery. On the day of their death, he sends slaves to hell, and free men to Heaven. Calvinists accept this fact and rather than openly admitting it, will utilize every logical fallacy to avoid admitting it.

As an orthodox Christian, I was not born a slave, with no choice to be a slave, only to be punished for being a slave.

Do all people choose to be sinners?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How are people saved from God's wrath? What does the Bible have to say about that?

Okay. Good. You are implying that babies are saved. So what of all the talk before about how you think of the unregenerate man as the perpetrator? Are all babies unregenerate creatures who are perpetrators? What about John the Baptist? He had the Holy Ghost since birth?

Did God just randomly choose the soul who would be John the Baptist to have God in his life for no real good reason? Or do think maybe God knew how John the Baptist would turn out to be as an adult because God has future foreknowledge?

My guess is that you believe John was one of the lucky ones and his future potential if God regenerated him had nothing to do with choosing John.

If this is the case, then it sounds like you believe God is some kind of puppet master. Is that true?

Why doesn't God force save all men out of the goodness of His heart if that is how He does it for some?

Should a coast guard person be praised for being good for saving two people by pulling them onto his boat and yet he refused to do so for one other person?

Keep in mind the coast guard person does not know any of these people.

However on the other hand, what if the coast guard person knew these three people are criminals, would it not be unfair or unjust to save only two when you could have saved all three?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Do all people choose to be sinners?

Then we are back at the topic of whether or not you believed babies are saved or not. You implied they were saved by your recent reply to me. But I still need confirmation of what you actually believe instead of you dodging my question with your own question.


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[Bible Highlighter]

How are people saved from God's wrath? What does the Bible have to say about that?

Are babies saved? Answer please.
Please do not dodge the question by asking another question.



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[Bible Highlighter]

This is why you don't understand God's sovereignty in election. You see unregenerate man as a victim, not the perpetrator that he is.

So a coast guard person is fair, just, and good in his decision for randomly choosing to pull only two out of the three people in the water to safety onto his boat because he knows that they are all criminals?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Nothing forced about a free choice. Why invent buzzwords and supposed concepts that have no meaning or value?

Well, you are talking about Once Saved Always Saved. A one time free will decision forever force saves you into God's Kingdom with this kind of belief. Once you checked in, you can't check out. You can do evil and still be saved. Or you are changed beyond your initial free will decision to be good only and thereby eliminating free will. Either way there are huge problems with Once Saved Always Saved (Which is not all that different from Calvinism). While Calvinism seeks to make God out to be something dark that He is not, Once Saved Always Saved does a similar thing. It either seeks to say that God can agree with your plan of salvation that says you can sin and still be saved (meaning, that God can agree with sin) or it seeks to make God out to be Calvinistic by taking away a believer's free will in going back to his old life of sin. A believer will be changed or forced to be good because of a one time free will decision. For no more free will decisions to refuse God can really be made anymore. It is "Forced Salvationism" just like Calvinism.


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[MDC]

This is a good example of the logical fallacies which Calvinism requires. Calvinists believe that man is born totally depraved, unable to choose to cooperate with God's grace. Because no one can choose to accept grace, being totally depraved, God randomly decides to save people. In Calvinism, God sends people to hell because he chose to save them, while not saving others. God also sends people to hell because he chose not to save them. At no point did the person choose to be a sinner. They admit that. They admit God punishes people for being a sinner despite the fact they had no choice but to be a sinner.

There is no justice for God in Calvinism and this is why so many orthodox Christians reject the teachings of Calvin. There is nothing just about punishing a person when no personal choice is involved. So they respond by appealing to orthodox Christian views - that a person chooses to be a sinner. In this case, that you must think yourself the victim for your sins if you believe it is unjust for God to punish you for sin.

Yes, if you believe in orthodox Christianity, you are responsible for your sins. While you may be inclinded to sin because of the presence of sin in the world, the eternal grace of God is offered at every moment. You are given a choice between the inclination of the flesh, and the spiritual graces of God. But they appeal to something which does not exist for them. In Calvinism, humans aren't inclinded to sin, they are born to do nothing but sin. Humans receive no offer of grace from God at every moment of their existence. God only offers a moment of grace so overwhelming that you have no choice but to accept Him.

As an orthodox Christian, I accept the fact that I am both a victim of sin and a perpetrater of sin. I accept that on the day of judgment, God will consider what has been done to me and what I have done to others. I cannot accept that one can call God just if He rewards people in Heaven because He decided to save them, and send others to eternal suffering, because he chose not to free them from a slavery they were born into and had no choice but to live.

In Calvinism, all men are born slaves. Yet, they can never escape slavery, no matter how hard they try. God randomly decides to free men from slavery. On the day of their death, he sends slaves to hell, and free men to Heaven. Calvinists accept this fact and rather than openly admitting it, will utilize every logical fallacy to avoid admitting it.

As an orthodox Christian, I was not born a slave, with no choice to be a slave, only to be punished for being a slave.

Salvation in Christ is all of grace. There's no cooperation with Gods grace. And by saying such you deny the gospel altogether. You promote works righteousness like all pelagians do. Instead of having a tantrum on what's fair and just, read Romans 9. Paul rhetorically ask the same questions you ask.. "why doth He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?" As all do, SELF will worshippers always question Gods justness and fairness. "Nah but, Oh man, who art thou that repliest against God".. Your fight is against the God of the Bible and His Word

 

[dad]

Then He is not sovereign. He is at the mercy of anyone with a "free will".

He is not a liar. Just because it takes time to make us perfect and sin free does not mean He is at our mercy. It means He is true and faithful.

 

[dad]

Well, you are talking about Once Saved Always Saved. A one time free will decision forever force saves you into God's Kingdom with this kind of belief. Once you checked in, you can't check out. You can do evil and still be saved. Or you are changed beyond your initial free will decision to be good only and thereby eliminating free will.

We do not decide to 'be good'. We decide that we hopeless doomed sinners accept His gift. Any goodness is from Him.

For no more free will decisions to refuse God can really be made anymore. It is "Forced Salvationism" just like Calvinism.

..

God judges us in this life. David got punished. He let's us go through things for our good. Jonas refused...but eventually learned his refusal was wrong. Paul talked of some people that blew it so bad, they had to die, but we're still saved. Like gold tried in a fire, He burns off the crud in our lives. It is a life long process. We do not become purest gold the moment we get saved. The decision puts us on that long road to being made perfect. That decision was of our free choice.

 

[Hammster]

You said..."That would be a form of universalism." Post # 37

Right. It was in response to a post on propitiation. So we can either discuss propitiation or the "world". Adding other ideas not mentioned in the verse from the OP is moving the goalposts.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We do not decide to 'be good'. We decide that we hopeless doomed sinners accept His gift. Any goodness is from Him.

You want me to believe that is all about me trying to save myself (without God's grace and without Him working in me) so as to justify your wrong belief. But that is not what I belief. I believe it is ultimately God or Christ doing the good work in the believer. I believe Jesus saves both in Justification and in Sanctification. There is no denying that. But one has to also cooperate with the good work the Lord does within a believer. Why else would the Lord say to his faithful servant?

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

Notice how it does not say, "Well done, you who were sometimes a good and occasionally a faithful servant, you have been somewhat faithful because you have a belief only on me, so I will make you ruler of nothing in my kingdom, but yet can still enter thou into the joy of thy Lord."

It does not say that.

For faith without works is dead.



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[RisenInJesus]

Well, you are talking about Once Saved Always Saved. A one time free will decision forever force saves you into God's Kingdom with this kind of belief. Once you checked in, you can't check out. You can do evil and still be saved. Or you are changed beyond your initial free will decision to be good only and thereby eliminating free will. Either way there are huge problems with Once Saved Always Saved (Which is not all that different from Calvinism). While Calvinism seeks to make God out to be something dark that He is not, Once Saved Always Saved does a similar thing. It either seeks to say that God can agree with your plan of salvation that says you can sin and still be saved (meaning, that God can agree with sin) or it seeks to make God out to be Calvinistic by taking away a believer's free will in going back to his old life of sin. A believer will be changed or forced to be good because of a one time free will decision. For no more free will decisions to refuse God can really be made anymore. It is "Forced Salvationism" just like Calvinism.


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So far, I have agreed with most of your views, but I must disagree on this subject because according to the scriptures a person who is born again and saved becomes a new creation in Christ and old things have passed away. One who is a new creation in Christ cannot then become unborn and go back to their unregenerate state. This does mean that a saved person is forced to obey or remove the responsibility of the saved person to exercise their will in choosing daily to trust and follow Christ or mean that a saved person does not at times sin and need to confess and repent.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17


"The “falling away” doctrine is another vestige from Rome, where, as you know, no one can tell you when enough Masses have been said, enough rosaries recited, enough indulgences earned to assure heaven—and salvation can always be lost.

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand."

—John:10:29"
Apples of Gold - August 25

 

[RisenInJesus]

Right. It was in response to a post on propitiation. So we can either discuss propitiation or the "world". Adding other ideas not mentioned in the verse from the OP is moving the goalposts.

I think you are the one who moved it by bringing up universalism in the first place. If you want to discuss propitiation or the world, just do so. But don't throw in the charge of universallism and then say I am the one moving the goalposts by bringing up universalism.

 

[Hammster]

I think you are the one who moved it by bringing up universalism in the first place. If you want to discuss propitiation or the world, just do so. But don't throw in the charge of universallism and then say I am the one moving the goalposts by bringing up universalism.

Universalism was the logical result of your view. Propitiation means God's wrath was satisfied. If satisfied for the whole world, then you are a left with a view approaching universalism.

 

[dad]

You want me to believe that is all about me trying to save myself (without God's grace and without Him working in me) so as to justify your wrong belief.

What nonsense. I said nothing remotely similar.

I believe it is ultimately God or Christ doing the good work in the believer.

That is not the issue. The issue is the Calvinistic trampling of free will, and the idea that we keep ourselves saved by works. (otherwise we were not predestined quite the right way)

I believe Jesus saves both in Justification and in Sanctification.

People who claim to be holy and wholly sanctified and sinless in this life are far from the truth.

There is no denying that. But one has to also cooperate with the good work the Lord does within a believer. Why else would the Lord say to his faithful servant?

Of course we should really try. But you will fail in large measure at times. Judgment begins with believers, so God is on the case and helping us work out our lives, preparing us for eternity to come.

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

Yes, I might add that the guy probably also had some area in his life that were not quite perfect. He got a commendation for the good things.

Notice how it does not say, "Well done, you who were sometimes a good and occasionally a faithful servant, you have been somewhat faithful because you have a belief only on me, so I will make you ruler of nothing in my kingdom, but yet can still enter thou into the joy of thy Lord."

Nor did He say 'well done perfect guy, in all areas you are perfect'.

For faith without works is dead.

It may be, but we will never die even if our works are burned up.

I tire of the 'we need to save ourselves, with a little help from God thrown in occasionally' routine.