The Works of the Law

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't claim what you allege. I didn't claim that a person needs to not habitually live in sin in order to be saved. I claim, as 1John indicates, that those who are saved don't habitually sin. Any rational person can understand the difference. Furthermore the effect of salvation is not the cause of salvation. I will not insult your intelligence by assuming you can't distinguish between the concept of cause and effect. So don't insult my intelligence by claiming that that the effect of salvation which results in evidence of one's salvation status is the same as the cause of salvation. You bear false witness against me claiming that I'm contradicting myself. (Bearing false witness, is that a sin. If so have you lost your salvation or do you simply overlook your sins?)

You are simply not wanting to see the circular contradiction in your own belief.

Hand #1. On the one hand you say that you are saved by a belief alone without works.
Hand #2. On the other hand you say that saved believers will not habitually sin (meaning they live holy and they are producing works).​

It is false circular reasoning.

So if believers are saved, works will be there as a matter of fact (according to you), which means that works are necessary as a part of salvation because you cannot have a believer who is sinning habitually (in your view) and yet claim grounds to salvation. In other words, not sinning habitually is just another way of saying "good works" or "living holy." You want to ignore the living holy or good works part of the salvation equation and yet you double speak and say they are necessary at another point.

For example: Waves are a by-product (an effect) of water and wind (or by some other force, like something big moving in the water really fast, etc.). You cannot have a wave without both the water and some kind of force pushing the water to be like a wave. Yet, in your warped view, you are sort of saying that one of the elements (either the water or the force involved pushing the wave) is not an essential component of a wave. For think of the wave as salvation, with water being our faith in God, and the force that pushes upon that water as God working in us to move us to do good works which = a Wave (or a saved believer who lives holy).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't claim what you allege. I didn't claim that a person needs to not habitually live in sin in order to be saved. I claim, as 1John indicates, that those who are saved don't habitually sin. Any rational person can understand the difference. Furthermore the effect of salvation is not the cause of salvation. I will not insult your intelligence by assuming you can't distinguish between the concept of cause and effect. So don't insult my intelligence by claiming that that the effect of salvation which results in evidence of one's salvation status is the same as the cause of salvation. You bear false witness against me claiming that I'm contradicting myself. (Bearing false witness, is that a sin. If so have you lost your salvation or do you simply overlook your sins?)

There are numerous problems with you favoring the ever popular "Belief Alone-ism" doctrine in the world of Christianity today. For example: How long do you have to abide in a particular sin in order for it to be habitual? Who gets to define how long is habitual sin? Is it sinning all day? Sinning for an hour? Sinning for a week? Sinning for 15 minutes? If a believer truly is changed, then they would be forced against their will to do good works all the time perfectly. But this is not what we see in Scripture. While believers who are born again spiritually do have a new nature, that does not mean their free will is no longer in existence and they are free from having to endure to the end as a part of salvation.

For the Bible teaches we need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Revelation 2:7).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

 

[bcbsr]

You are simply not wanting to see the circular contradiction in your own belief.

I stand corrected. It appears you are incapable of distinguishing between the ideas of cause and effect. While I never had much hope of convincing you faith-in-works Christians who are apparently settled in your misconceptions as you post to my threads, you have served your purpose in these threads to demonstrate to viewers just how irrational your position is in not only misconstruing the clearly reading of scripture, but misconstruing other people's position.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I stand corrected. It appears you are incapable of distinguishing between the ideas of cause and effect. While I never had much hope of convincing you faith-in-works Christians who are apparently settled in your misconceptions as you post to my threads, you have served your purpose in these threads to demonstrate to viewers just how irrational your position is in not only misconstruing the clearly reading of scripture, but misconstruing other people's position.

Ad Hominems does not help to undo the problem of your belief, which is a circular contradiction. You want the Effect to be unrelated to the Cause. Can you give me another example of Cause and Effect where the Effect was not related to the Cause?

You say: Salvation is the Cause, and Works are the Effect. Yet, you are wanting me to believe that the Effect (Works) is not related to the Cause (Salvation).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@bcbsr:

Examples of Cause and Effect

• We received seven inches of rain in four hours. - The underpass was flooded.
• I never brush my teeth. - I have 5 cavities.
• Smoking cigarettes - Lung cancer
• Many buffalo were killed. - Buffalo almost became extinct.
• The streets were snow-packed and icy. - Cars needed more time to stop.
• He broke his arm. - The doctor put it in a cast.
• The boss was busy. - Her secretary took a message.
• A basketball player was traveling. - The referee called a penalty.
• I flipped the light switch on. - The light came on.
• An oil spill - Many deaths to wildlife
• Sedentary lifestyle - Childhood obesity

Cause and Effect Examples in Sentences

• When water is heated, the molecules move quickly, therefore the water boils.
• A tornado blew the roof off the house, and as a result, the family had to find another place to live.
• Because the alarm was not set, we were late for work.
• The moon has gravitational pull, consequently the oceans have tides.
• Since school was canceled, we went to the mall.
• John made a rude comment, so Elise hit him.
• When the ocean is extremely polluted, coral reefs die.
• The meal we ordered was cheaper than expected, so we ordered dessert.
• Since helium rises, a helium balloon floats.
• There has been an increase in greenhouse gases, therefore global warming is happening.
• Betty completed each task perfectly, therefore she was promoted.
• Some believe dinosaurs died out because a large meteor hit the earth.
• I had to get the mop since I spilled my juice.
• Tsunamis happen when tectonic plates shift.
• Fred was driving 75 in a 35 mile zone, therefore he got a speeding ticket.
• Because of changes in classifications, Pluto is no longer a planet.
• Maria didn't follow the recipe correctly, so the cake did not come out as expected.
• The weather forecast called for rain, so he took his umbrella.
• Because of a price increase, sales are down.
• Water is formed when two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom combine.
• The baby was crying, so Dad picked him up.
• I learned to play the drums quickly because I took lessons from a pro.
• The batter couldn't hit the softball because he didn't keep his eyes on the ball.
• When the manuscript is edited, the company will publish it.
• Because the cat was frightened, he arched his back and fluffed his tail.
• A peacock will spread his feathers so he will attract a female.
• Since the electricity went out for most of the day, the ice cream in the freezer melted.
• As the wind speed increases, the sail boat moves faster.
• When nuclear fusion stops or starts, a star explodes.
• Wind is produced when the surface of the Earth is heated unevenly.
• Because of inflation, the dollar is worth less than before.
• Since the refrigerator was practically empty, we had to go to the store.

Now, can you tell me how the "Effect" in the above examples are unrelated to the "Cause"? Again, you are saying the "Cause" (Salvation) is unrelated to the Effect (Works). But doesn't salvation cause good works (Thereby showing that works is indeed a true mark of a saved believer, i.e. the effect)?


Source used:
Cause and Effect Examples

 

[Blood Bought]

Knowing that I am justified by Grace through Faith in Christ; makes me want to work harder. It frees me, makes me sold out, and fills me with love for Jesus. If I had to be justified by faith and works; i could never measure up and I would always feel like a failure.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Knowing that I am justified by Grace through Faith in Christ; makes me want to work harder. It frees me, makes me sold out, and fills me with love for Jesus. If I had to be justified by faith and works; i could never measure up and I would always feel like a failure.

But a believer can have victory in overcoming grievous sin by the power of Jesus Christ. He said to his disciples, "with man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible." For why do you think men of God in the OT were tested to fight against great odds sometimes? It was a test of their faith. If all we had to do was believe there would be no real test of our faith in the Lord. In fact, we are not really trusting or having faith in the Lord if we are not obeying His teachings (i.e. His commands). For you cannot separate the person of Jesus from the teachings or commands of Jesus. Jesus never said that we can continue to keep sinning and still be saved. Jesus said to certain believers who even did wonderful works that He did not know them because they also worked iniquity or sin. So we have to choose this day in whom we will serve. Are we going to serve sin (which is of the devil - 1 John 3:8) or are we going to serve Jesus? The choice is up to us. His blood does not cover future sin (or future rebellion) by a mere belief alone on Christ. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Also, there is always going to be some kind of bad sin a person will justify if they feel that no grievous sin can separate them from God.

 

[fhansen]

The Works of the Law

Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.

But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."

Does this mean that it’s now, with the New Covenant, wrong to ‘do them’? That it’s wrong to keep the law because then we must live by the law? That’d be a bit odd.

The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.righteousness

Here you're, amazingly, managing to minimize or deny the central role of love in Christianity, while love is actually it's very heart. Love, ineffably huge, is what motivated Jesus. Do you think that love is what motivated the Pharisees as they attempted to obey the law? Love is the difference between the Old and New Covenants, and this is why Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13 that love is more important than faith or hope, and that he's nothing with a faith that can even move mountains unless he has love. Love is man's holiness, his justice.

Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.

Wow, so now we've succeeded in divorcing righteousness from...well...righteousness. Bravo. Faith is not intended to replace righteousness, or escape from our obligation to it, or stand in for it. It's actually meant to lead to authentic, not merely imputed, righteousness. Because it admits us into the presence of God. And He takes it from there as long as we don't interfere or turn and run back away.

Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.

Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

Yes! Had they pursued it by faith they could’ve obtained it!

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Exactly. The law, although right, although holy, spiritual, and good, nonetheless can never do what God, alone, can do: justify us. Because being under the law necessarily means ME doing the abiding, ME doing the fulfilling: self-justification IOW.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

The first part of Rom 10 is helpful on this matter
“Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Because they were ignorant of God’s righteousness and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes.” Rom 10:1-4

The Jews who Paul is speaking of here didn’t know God -or His will in its entirety-the God of Jer 31:32-34, the God who Jesus came to fully and definitively reveal when the time was ripe. The Old Covenant placed the onus on man to be righteous, to obey the law, sort of challenging him to prove his righteousness on his own, because man (Adam) had spiritually separated from God at the beginning, no longer subjugated to Him, let alone ‘submitted to His righteousness’. Until man turns back to God and begins to love Him, that disobedience and the self-righteousness and pride it necessarily entails continues to reign in man, regardless of how well he might even succeed at external obedience of the Law. Man doesn’t even know how to submit to God’s righteousness even though the law means to spell out that righteousness by the letter. But when man humbly turns back to God in faith, God can accomplish what man cannot. God, alone, can justify man. God’s purpose from the beginning has been to get man "right". Without holiness no one will see the Lord. Heck, no one is even capable of seeing the Lord without it:
"Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God." He wants our hearts right first of all, then obedience and holiness and justice flow of their own accord. And just we must be, as Scripture makes clear. Fortunately 'nothing is impossible with God'. Faith, in response to His grace, opens the door to being with Him. Because faith is to turn to Him.

Anyway, it'd be kind of hard to work out one’s salvation-with or without fear and trembling-without works. Do you think, for some reason, that the fruits of a believer, or the works mentioned in Eph 2:10, or those done "for the least of these" in Matt 25, or the good deeds referred to in Matt 6:14 or Rom 2:7 or the necessity of refraining from sin listed in many places in Scripture equate to "works of the Law"? And yet they’re as often as not named as criteria for judgment. That's because, to the extent that man loves, these are the kinds of works he'll do. And as the Church teaches, quoting a 16th century believer, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Knowing that I am justified by Grace through Faith in Christ; makes me want to work harder. It frees me, makes me sold out, and fills me with love for Jesus. If I had to be justified by faith and works; i could never measure up and I would always feel like a failure.

This would not be the case for me. If I knew that nothing I did truly mattered in regards to salvation, I would go back to my old life of sin. For why bother to live holy if it does not truly matter? In fact, there are believers out there who committed suicide thinking they would be saved. George Sodini killed a bunch of people and then he took his own life. He said in his own suicide letter that he would be saved by having a belief on Jesus and that his sins would not be accounted to him. This is the destructive nature of OSAS or a Belief Alone Type Version of Salvation. Even you admitted that you would be a failure if you believed that "Salvation" was "Faith + Works." However...

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

 

[Norbert L]

That's the Catholics opinion. If you were to interpret Paul in light of what Paul actually said, .

There are two kind of lights about what Paul actually said. The first is the context of the passage in question, the second is the historical context of the writer. How people were thinking and expressing themselves 2000 plus years ago.

It's like if I use the expression and tell someone they need to hit the road, we know today it means that I want them to leave.
Two thousand years from now a person would read that and believe I wanted someone to hit the road by striking it with something. Wrong!

The historical evidence we have in the Dead Sea scrolls with the term "works of the law" as it was used back then, not only shows us what Paul said, but also what he was actually saying. It's not what numerous Christians think it means.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't claim what you allege. I didn't claim that a person needs to not habitually live in sin in order to be saved. I claim, as 1John indicates, that those who are saved don't habitually sin. Any rational person can understand the difference. Furthermore the effect of salvation is not the cause of salvation. I will not insult your intelligence by assuming you can't distinguish between the concept of cause and effect. So don't insult my intelligence by claiming that that the effect of salvation which results in evidence of one's salvation status is the same as the cause of salvation. You bear false witness against me claiming that I'm contradicting myself. (Bearing false witness, is that a sin. If so have you lost your salvation or do you simply overlook your sins?)

So as long as it is not habitual sin, it is okay? So Christians can be inappropriate content stars every once in a while and be saved while doing so? Christians can murder every once in a while and be saved while doing so? Christians can get smash drunk every once in a while and be saved while doing so? For do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder? For what it is the difference between doing evil a little bit versus all the time? Are not both just as equally bad? Does the infrequency of a sin really make it any less worse? What if a family was destroyed by a Christian man's one time act of a horrible sin? What if the family all died because he tortured them to death? Would this Christian man truly be saved if he put away this sin only to take it up again? Can we say that this man is still saved by having a belief alone on Jesus? Maybe he did live a holy life most of his life, but what if he returned back to his horrible sins for a while? Are those sins okay if he does them infrequently vs. habitually? What about Christians who are thinking about suicide? Are they more likely to commit suicide if they knew that no works or sin separates them God and it is only a belief alone in Jesus that saves? In fact, this has happened. Many self proclaimed Christians have committed suicide because they knew that they would be saved despite their one time act of grievous sin. That is the problem here with your support of Belief Alone-ism. For once you open Pandora's box of justifying one grievous sin, it then becomes acceptable to justify all manner of sin (Whether you want that to happen or not).

 

[Blood Bought]

This would not be the case for me. If I knew that nothing I did truly mattered in regards to salvation, I would go back to my old life of sin. For why bother to live holy if it does not truly matter?

I wouldn't because I love God and don't want to be out of fellowship with Him; i want to be like Him, I want to Love like Him, have the Compassion that He had - I yearn for Him. I miss Him when I get so busy I can't think about Him. I love Him; He died for me and saved me from Hell when that's all I deserved. Love keeps me obedient not the fear of Hell. I do never measure up to perfection; but the fact that I am not judged on my perfection makes me able to keep going further with Him.

The fact that I am even saved; after all I did - blows me away. I mean it feels too good to be true. I am sooo grateful.

I think that you would not sin out of love too, but you have to spend time dwelling on His goodness so you fall deep in love with Him.

 

[Blood Bought]

Jesus never said that we can continue to keep sinning and still be saved

.

You are totally missing the new covenant promise.

And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[Blood Bought]

We are drawn to Jesus by His Spirit, we are kept by His Spirit, all working through faith hope and love. If the only thing holding you to Jesus is a fear of hell, I got good news- when you get a revelation of His Grace, your relationship with Him is going to sky rocket.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

.

You are totally missing the new covenant promise.

And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

I am not missing anything. A moment ago you said that if "Salvation" was by "Faith + Works" you would see yourself as a failure. So how do you reconcile your being caused to obey by the Spirit if you see yourself as a failure in light of obedience? To me this sounds like yet another contradiction in the Belief Alone Camp.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This would not be the case for me. If I knew that nothing I did truly mattered in regards to salvation, I would go back to my old life of sin. For why bother to live holy if it does not truly matter?

I wouldn't because I love God and don't want to be out of fellowship with Him; i want to be like Him, I want to Love like Him, have the Compassion that He had - I yearn for Him. I miss Him when I get so busy I can't think about Him. I love Him; He died for me and saved me from Hell when that's all I deserved. Love keeps me obedient not the fear of Hell. I do never measure up to perfection; but the fact that I am not judged on my perfection makes me able to keep going further with Him.

The fact that I am even saved; after all I did - blows me away. I mean it feels too good to be true. I am sooo grateful.

I think that you would not sin out of love too, but you have to spend time dwelling on His goodness so you fall deep in love with Him.

While that appears to be noble on the surface, again you said before that you would see yourself as a failure if "Salvation" was by "Faith + Works." Yet Jesus said, "if you love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Paul said if any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). In other words, if we are not loving Jesus by keeping His commandments, we are accursed (At least if we believe the whole counsel of God's Word). Also, Philippians 2:12 says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

Does fear always remain for a believer? Well, 1 John 4:18 says, "perfect love casts out fear"; And 1 John 2:5 says, "But whoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." 1 John 2:4 says, "He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." So a lack of fear of God is not in a state of mind in believing that Jesus paid for all your sins. That is not what the Bible teaches.

Again, it comes down to losing something important to you. You said fellowship, and while that is in part true, it is also more than that.

Believers cannot be out of fellowship with the Lord and still be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Being cleansed of sin is salvation; If you were to contrast this with 1 John 2:4, it says that person who says they know the Lord and does keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

#8. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are drawn to Jesus by His Spirit, we are kept by His Spirit, all working through faith hope and love. If the only thing holding you to Jesus is a fear of hell, I got good news- when you get a revelation of His Grace, your relationship with Him is going to sky rocket.

See post #76.

 

[Blood Bought]

So how do you reconcile your being caused to obey by the Spirit if you see yourself as a failure in light of obedience?

. Because the standard is perfection, every time I doubt God for a miracle, every time I don’t put my wife’s needs before my own, everytime I don’t love someone with the same love God does, every time I don’t trust God 100% I sin. If my salvation was dependent on me living out my day perfectly, then I would see myself as a failure. God does not judge on a curve, it’s either His righteousness or mine - I prefer to take His, than rely on my own for any part of salvation.

 

[Blood Bought]

I do fear the Lord, but it is not a slavish fear that Keeps me drawn to Him. I am drawn to Him out of Love. When I truly gave my heart to Jesus, something changed in me. I didn’t go looking for it, something just happened. I began to love God and desire nothing more than to be with Him, and watching shows that I watched before didn’t sit well with me, and Going back to inappropriate content was something that I determined was not going to happen, I put a blocker on my router and threw away the password. All this was not something I mustered up, it just kind of happened, the day I sincerely Called on the name of the Lord for salvation.

And I guarantee if I went back to sin I would be out of fellowship with Him, because I would have stopped fellowshipping with Him.

Sometimes I think we overcomplicate things, it’s just like any other relationship. If I leave the relationship to pursue something else, I miss out on experiencing the closeness I once had.

If a so called Christian is living in blatant sin with no intent or desire to leave it - not out of weakness but because they didn’t care - I would question if they had the Spirit in them (but how am I really going to know if they do or not). But if I see that person living in such a way, my job is to love them, rebuke them, teach them, disfellowship with them in hopes they would come to their senses, all to try to get them out of that mess.

 

[fhansen]

I do fear the Lord, but it is not a slavish fear that Keeps me drawn to Him. I am drawn to Him out of Love. When I truly gave my heart to Jesus, something changed in me. I didn’t go looking for it, something just happened. I began to love God and desire nothing more than to be with Him, and watching shows that I watched before didn’t sit well with me, and Going back to inappropriate content was something that I determined was not going to happen, I put a blocker on my router and threw away the password. All this was not something I mustered up, it just kind of happened, the day I sincerely Called on the name of the Lord for salvation.

And I guarantee if I went back to sin I would be out of fellowship with Him, because I would have stopped fellowshipping with Him.

Sometimes I think we overcomplicate things, it’s just like any other relationship. If I leave the relationship to pursue something else, I miss out on experiencing the closeness I once had.

If a so called Christian is living in blatant sin with no intent or desire to leave it - not out of weakness but because they didn’t care - I would question if they had the Spirit in them (but how am I really going to know if they do or not). But if I see that person living in such a way, my job is to love them, rebuke them, disfellowship with them in hopes they would come to their senses, all to try to get them out of that mess.

In Catholicism we believe that the situation you describe, righteousness/obedience born from love, is both a command/requirement (summed up by the Greatest Commandments) and ultimately an innate desire by those who are so blest with conversion to the living God. In this, God finally gets His way-the right way. Basil of Cesarea, a 3rd or 4th century follower, had this to say:

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.