The Works of the Law

[Blood Bought]

Now I remember why I don’t voice my opinion on these forums, my motivation to come on here was to help people who are struggling, not to engage in endless and pointless debates ~ so I think I will stop. But nonetheless I Love you brother and I will be praying for you and your family to do well and prosper. We are all on a journey of faith to get to know our Father in Heaven. And I know a God loves you and has great plans for you. God bless.

 

[bcbsr]

Now I remember why I don’t voice my opinion on these forums, my motivation to come on here was to help people who are struggling, not to engage in endless and pointless debates ~ so I think I will stop. But nonetheless I Love you brother and I will be praying for you and your family to do well and prosper. We are all on a journey of faith to get to know our Father in Heaven. God bless.

Understand that typically those who post are those who are already settled in their convictions and it's unlikely debate which change their minds. However realize that there may be 10 to 100 times more viewers of a thread than there area posters to a thread, many of whom are not settled in their convictions enough to post and are looking for the most reasonable and scriptural point of view. So I say, keep posting for their sake.

 

[Guojing]

Then you disagree with Christ in that he sent people to hell because they didn't help others, or do their works/prove their faith to be actual faith and not just talk? I'm assuming you are familiar with the scripture, but if not, I can post it.

When you read the 4 gospels, it is useful to understand that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles in the 4 Gospels.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

We are under the Gospel of Grace that was a mystery revealed only to Paul. So if you want to have church doctrine, take your doctrine from Paul's letters.

 

[Kenny'sID]

When you read the 4 gospels, it is useful to understand that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles in the 4 Gospels.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

We are under the Gospel of Grace that was a mystery revealed only to Paul. So if you want to have church doctrine, take your doctrine from Paul's letters.

Then you are saying faith only is needed to get to heaven and we don't have to do good, and that out salvation is secure no matter what we do?

 

[Guojing]

Then you are saying faith only is needed to get to heaven and we don't have to do good, and that out salvation is secure no matter what we do?

Salvation is always by grace thru faith alone, since Adam. But you need to understand the concept of progressive revelation.

During the dispensation of the law, you exhibit faith by "obeying the law", all the Jews have to obey the law. It is true that all the saints of past ages were saved through the merits of Christ's shed blood, but not through their faith in that shed blood.

Those of past ages were expected to believe only what God had thus far revealed, or what He had revealed to them. In other words, they were saved simply because they trusted God and believed what He said. The full plan of salvation has since been unfolded, but the Scriptures make it crystal clear that these believers were saved without even understanding that Christ would die for them.

When God says, "Repent and be baptized for the remission. of sins," what will faith do? Just one thing: repent and be baptized. We know that oceans of water cannot wash away one sin, yet when John the Baptist and Peter preached repentance and baptism for remission not one of their hearers would have interpreted their words to mean: "Trust in the death of Christ for salvation."

Indeed, when God required water baptism for salvation the only way to manifest faith was to be baptized, and those who refused to do so were condemned for their unbelief:

"But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD AGAINST THEMSELVES, BEING NOT BAPTIZIED OF HIM" (Luke 7:30).

But under the Gospel of Grace, let the Apostle Paul, our Apostle, spell out the church doctrine for salvation now.

"BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21);

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5)

"Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24);

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7);

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5);

"Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9)

When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

Trust me when I tell you, everyone else from the Old Testament, King David, Noah, even the 4 Gospels guys such as Peter, James and John, will be very envious about you.

Their conditions for showing faith were not as simple as what we have to do, under the age of Grace.

Noah had to build an ark. (Hebrews 11:7)

Abel had to bring the correct sacrifice (Gen 4:4-5, Heb. 11:4)

Abraham had to believe, at his advanced years, that God would make him a father of many (Genesis 15:5-6)
Rahab had to hide the spies, at the risk of being caught and punished (Hebrews 11:31)

The point is that, by the time it reach us Gentiles, thanks to Jesus ushering the age of Grace, all we need to do, in order to display faith, is simply believing and speaking

This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

We simply believe the message, that Jesus Christ has started and completed the work required for our salvation and we cease from our work and believe it. If we do that, we will receive the same righteousness as Abraham received (Gal 3:6-9). I especially like the NLT version.

6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” 7 The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. 8 What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would make the Gentiles right in his sight because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”[c] 9 So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Salvation is always by grace thru faith alone, since Adam. But you need to understand the concept of progressive revelation.

During the dispensation of the law, you exhibit faith by "obeying the law", all the Jews have to obey the law. It is true that all the saints of past ages were saved through the merits of Christ's shed blood, but not through their faith in that shed blood.

Those of past ages were expected to believe only what God had thus far revealed, or what He had revealed to them. In other words, they were saved simply because they trusted God and believed what He said. The full plan of salvation has since been unfolded, but the Scriptures make it crystal clear that these believers were saved without even understanding that Christ would die for them.

When God says, "Repent and be baptized for the remission. of sins," what will faith do? Just one thing: repent and be baptized. We know that oceans of water cannot wash away one sin, yet when John the Baptist and Peter preached repentance and baptism for remission not one of their hearers would have interpreted their words to mean: "Trust in the death of Christ for salvation."

Indeed, when God required water baptism for salvation the only way to manifest faith was to be baptized, and those who refused to do so were condemned for their unbelief:

"But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD AGAINST THEMSELVES, BEING NOT BAPTIZIED OF HIM" (Luke 7:30).

But under the Gospel of Grace, let the Apostle Paul, our Apostle, spell out the church doctrine for salvation now.

"BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21);

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5)

"Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24);

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7);

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5);

"Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9)

When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

Trust me when I tell you, everyone else from the Old Testament, King David, Noah, even the 4 Gospels guys such as Peter, James and John, will be very envious about you.

Their conditions for showing faith were not as simple as what we have to do, under the age of Grace.

Noah had to build an ark. (Hebrews 11:7)

Abel had to bring the correct sacrifice (Gen 4:4-5, Heb. 11:4)

Abraham had to believe, at his advanced years, that God would make him a father of many (Genesis 15:5-6)
Rahab had to hide the spies, at the risk of being caught and punished (Hebrews 11:31)

The point is that, by the time it reach us Gentiles, thanks to Jesus ushering the age of Grace, all we need to do, in order to display faith, is simply believing and speaking

This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace." View attachment 256690

We simply believe the message, that Jesus Christ has started and completed the work required for our salvation and we cease from our work and believe it. If we do that, we will receive the same righteousness as Abraham received (Gal 3:6-9). I especially like the NLT version.

6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” 7 The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. 8 What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would make the Gentiles right in his sight because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”[c] 9 So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.

Straight forward questions are much easier for me to understand so, just so I'm clear, once we're saved we don't have to do good in order to get to heaven?

 

[Guojing]

Straight forward questions are much easier for me to understand so, just so I'm clear, once we're saved we don't have to do good in order to get to heaven?

Romans 5:12-19 explained it very well, once again proving that Paul is indeed the Apostle of Grace. Once Adam disobeyed, all his descendants are destined for hell, even if they don't do a single "bad" deed. Likewise, because we accept Jesus's obedience on the cross, we are destined for heaven, even if we don't do a single good deed. If not, you are actually saying that Jesus's obedience is less powerful than Adam's disobedience.

Once you are saved by putting your faith in Jesus, you are declared righteous and yes will go to heaven, even if you never do a single good deed. I have confidence that there will be plenty of good deeds following but yes, they are not required.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Once you are saved by putting your faith in Jesus, you are declared righteous and yes will go to heaven, even if you never do a single good deed.

Thank you.

However, Jesus disagrees you, so please explain how you get past the three mentioned scriptures, and still come out saying we need do nothing after initial salivation.

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

There is also the scripture about the wide and narrow way and your way of thinking completely tosses that and replaces it with another, as in, the wide and narrow way now lead to Heaven, and not just the narrow as the scripture intends.

I have more but if you would please explain how you get by those three, that will be a good start.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

. Because the standard is perfection, every time I doubt God for a miracle, every time I don’t put my wife’s needs before my own, everytime I don’t love someone with the same love God does, every time I don’t trust God 100% I sin. If my salvation was dependent on me living out my day perfectly, then I would see myself as a failure. God does not judge on a curve, it’s either His righteousness or mine - I prefer to take His, than rely on my own for any part of salvation.

Chapter and verse(s) please. Where does the Bible state that all sin is the same and that you have to put away minor faults of character or be perfect in every way in order to attain the Kingdom of God?

Anyways, the Bible actually teaches that not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).​

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).
​

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).​

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).​

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do fear the Lord, but it is not a slavish fear that Keeps me drawn to Him. I am drawn to Him out of Love. When I truly gave my heart to Jesus, something changed in me. I didn’t go looking for it, something just happened. I began to love God and desire nothing more than to be with Him, and watching shows that I watched before didn’t sit well with me, and Going back to inappropriate content was something that I determined was not going to happen, I put a blocker on my router and threw away the password. All this was not something I mustered up, it just kind of happened, the day I sincerely Called on the name of the Lord for salvation.

And I guarantee if I went back to sin I would be out of fellowship with Him, because I would have stopped fellowshipping with Him.

Sometimes I think we overcomplicate things, it’s just like any other relationship. If I leave the relationship to pursue something else, I miss out on experiencing the closeness I once had.

If a so called Christian is living in blatant sin with no intent or desire to leave it - not out of weakness but because they didn’t care - I would question if they had the Spirit in them (but how am I really going to know if they do or not). But if I see that person living in such a way, my job is to love them, rebuke them, teach them, disfellowship with them in hopes they would come to their senses, all to try to get them out of that mess.

The problem is that Belief Alone-ism makes room for disobedience on some small level (According to God's Word). You said yourself that if salvation depended on "Faith + Works" you would see yourself as a failure. Is this based on God's Word or simply your own thinking? Does the Bible condemn a person if they are not perfectly loving their wife? Or does the Bible simply condemn us if we do not love our neighbor (who are all people)? Granted, this loving of our neighbor is defined in the Bible. The Lord can only condemn us based off what His Word says, and not by our own way of thinking (Please see John 12:48). I believe you have created something imaginary in your own thinking that the Bible does not specifically say. So you set up an impossible standard of obedience that the Bible does not actually teach, and thus, you force yourself into the ever popular Belief Alone-ism camp.

As for your statement that said that you fear God:

I actually do not see how that is possible, unless you believe that a believer can fall away from the faith through a lack of unbelief. As for falling out of fellowship with the Lord: Do you believe a Christian can fall out of fellowship with God and still be saved? You really did not seem to disagree with my list of verses about how a believer can fall out of fellowship = a loss of salvation.

As for Christians who blatantly sin:

Well, you only see this as the believer who never knew the Lord, but this is not consistent with Scripture. The Prodigal Son is an example of a believer who was said by his father to be "dead" (While he was prodigal and in sin), and was "alive again" when he came back home and repented to his father (Sought forgiveness with his father). The point of the Parable is two fold. We can have mercy and forgiveness if we seek forgiveness with the Lord, but if we fall away into our own path of sin we are dead (dead spiritually). In fact, James 5:19-20 confirms this truth, as well. The problem is that you create an imaginary safety net that is not taught in the Bible. The question is.... why?

Also, your belief is a contradiction, as well. If salvation was 100% by a belief alone in Jesus and not by any kind of works whatsoever, then why do you say that Christians who live in blatant sin are not saved? You are adding a requirement to salvation by saying that a believer is defined by living on some bar mininum level of holiness (in your view). But if salvation was all in just believing in Jesus 100%, then no amount of works or holiness should ever play a factor in one being a genuinely saved believer or not. The scary thing is that there are believers who do hold to the view that they can sin as much as they like and still be saved. George Sodini is one of them, and when I hear his gospel, it does not sound all that much different from your gospel, unless we start talking about holiness and or sin (of course).

 

[Guojing]

Thank you.

However, Jesus disagrees you, so please explain how you get past the three mentioned scriptures, and still come out saying we need do nothing after initial salivation.

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

There is also the scripture about the wide and narrow way and your way of thinking completely tosses that and replaces it with another, as in, the wide and narrow way now lead to Heaven, and not just the narrow as the scripture intends.

I have more but if you would please explain how you get by those three, that will be a good start.

I already stated that if I met Jesus in the Gospels, this is what he would have said to me Matthew 15:24

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Gentiles were not part of the covenant of God then. We are included only after the Jews rejected Jesus by stoning Stephen.

Do you not accept that the Apostle Paul is the person the ascended Christ Jesus raised to specifically reach us? Paul stated the following in 2 Corinthians 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Simply put, the Jews know Christ in the flesh, but for us Gentiles, we know him in heaven, he gave revelations directly to Paul, for him to teach us what is church doctrine. Going to the 4 Gospels for doctrine is as advisable as going to the OT.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Now I remember why I don’t voice my opinion on these forums, my motivation to come on here was to help people who are struggling, not to engage in endless and pointless debates ~ so I think I will stop. But nonetheless I Love you brother and I will be praying for you and your family to do well and prosper. We are all on a journey of faith to get to know our Father in Heaven. And I know a God loves you and has great plans for you. God bless.

While I appreciate the kind words, and loving attitude, we both cannot be right. I believe we have two entirely different views on salvation that is critical to understanding the narrow way that Jesus taught. For me: It seems kind of selfish or personally motivated to say that all I need to do is believe on Jesus and I am saved. It makes it seem like I never have to worry in how to live if I am told this. The problem is that many do take this message as a license to sin as a result of hearing this message, too. I know you have not taken this message personally to mean this by what you have stated, but you also said you would see yourself as a failure if Salvation was by "Faith + Works." You have only given me a glimpse of what you meant by this. Is there anything in Scripture that would condemn your failing to measure up? That is the question. What if you tell people to believe in Jesus alone for salvation and you don't get time to tell them on the necessity of how a true believer is marked by living holy? Is it not possible that this message can lead others into treating God's grace into a license to sin by hearing this? Will you not be held accountable for leading them to think that way?

Anyways, Belief Alone-ism is not consistent with what the Bible says. For it is written,

5 "...God;
6 ... will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:5-11).

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

44 "Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:44-46).

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29).

This does not sound like the imaginary Believe on Jesus and you will be forever saved type gospel.

Also, you and many who believe as you do will say that a believer is changed to want to obey:

Is this true according to the Bible? Well, while a believer is spiritually changed to a degree after accepting Jesus, they still have free will and they are told to endure to the end as a part of salvation. We are told to keep ourselves in the love of God (according to Jude). James says we are to resist temptation and we will receive the crown of life. Are you resisting temptation with the thinking you are going to receive the crown of life? Do you really believe that? But if just believing in Jesus alone is the only way to be saved and it is nothing in what you do, then why would Jesus, James and other speak contrary to this?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation is always by grace thru faith alone, since Adam. But you need to understand the concept of progressive revelation.

During the dispensation of the law, you exhibit faith by "obeying the law", all the Jews have to obey the law. It is true that all the saints of past ages were saved through the merits of Christ's shed blood, but not through their faith in that shed blood.

Those of past ages were expected to believe only what God had thus far revealed, or what He had revealed to them. In other words, they were saved simply because they trusted God and believed what He said. The full plan of salvation has since been unfolded, but the Scriptures make it crystal clear that these believers were saved without even understanding that Christ would die for them.

When God says, "Repent and be baptized for the remission. of sins," what will faith do? Just one thing: repent and be baptized. We know that oceans of water cannot wash away one sin, yet when John the Baptist and Peter preached repentance and baptism for remission not one of their hearers would have interpreted their words to mean: "Trust in the death of Christ for salvation."

Indeed, when God required water baptism for salvation the only way to manifest faith was to be baptized, and those who refused to do so were condemned for their unbelief:

"But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD AGAINST THEMSELVES, BEING NOT BAPTIZIED OF HIM" (Luke 7:30).

But under the Gospel of Grace, let the Apostle Paul, our Apostle, spell out the church doctrine for salvation now.

"BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21);

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5)

"Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24);

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7);

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5);

"Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9)

When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

Trust me when I tell you, everyone else from the Old Testament, King David, Noah, even the 4 Gospels guys such as Peter, James and John, will be very envious about you.

Their conditions for showing faith were not as simple as what we have to do, under the age of Grace.

Noah had to build an ark. (Hebrews 11:7)

Abel had to bring the correct sacrifice (Gen 4:4-5, Heb. 11:4)

Abraham had to believe, at his advanced years, that God would make him a father of many (Genesis 15:5-6)
Rahab had to hide the spies, at the risk of being caught and punished (Hebrews 11:31)

The point is that, by the time it reach us Gentiles, thanks to Jesus ushering the age of Grace, all we need to do, in order to display faith, is simply believing and speaking

This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace." View attachment 256690

We simply believe the message, that Jesus Christ has started and completed the work required for our salvation and we cease from our work and believe it. If we do that, we will receive the same righteousness as Abraham received (Gal 3:6-9). I especially like the NLT version.

6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” 7 The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God. 8 What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would make the Gentiles right in his sight because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”[c] 9 So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.

Paul said that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says that God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble. So we have to agree with godliness and the words of Jesus, if not we are proud and we know nothing. In fact, being proud is bad because James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. This is common sense. A person who justifies grievous sin is not humble but they are proud. God cannot condone our willful disobedience done against Him. God is holy. So God has a base line bare minimum level of holy living that is required of us.

Having a belief alone in something does not make people more morally acceptable (Which causes peace, love, and good to flourish). James 1:22 says, "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (See James 1:21 as a part of the context).

Anyways, the Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

So your belief in Belief Alone-ism here is not biblical.

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that I do believe that believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Simply click on the spoiler button to check out the verses:

Spoiler

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Understand that typically those who post are those who are already settled in their convictions and it's unlikely debate which change their minds. However realize that there may be 10 to 100 times more viewers of a thread than there area posters to a thread, many of whom are not settled in their convictions enough to post and are looking for the most reasonable and scriptural point of view. So I say, keep posting for their sake.

Yes, and readers who are good Bereans will see that your teaching on Belief Alone-ism is not biblical. They will see the weakness in your argument in the fact that:

(a) You left tons of verses that I put forth to you to go unexplained (that demolishes your position in Belief Alone-ism).
(b) You stated "the effect of salvation is not the cause of salvation." While to some extent this is true, it is not entirely the truth. For while it is true that the Effect is not the Cause, they are not unrelated to each other (as you are proposing - which is a circular contradiction). You attempt to divorce the "Cause" from the "Effect" by implying that the effect (works) is unrelated to the cause (salvation). In fact, you did not provide any real world example to illustrate how you are correct on this point. For how can the "Effect" (Works) be unrelated to the Cause (Salvation)? By what you said so far, it sounds like you are suggesting that works (the effect) is unrelated to salvation (the cause). However, it is common sense that the Effect cannot exist without the Cause and thus they are related to each other. So if salvation leads to works, this means that works is related to salvation. It is the condition that even you agree must exist in order to define a true saved believer. Somehow you believe that a believer will just automatically obey God after believing. If so, then why are there 600 plus commands given to us in the New Testament? There would be no need to have any commands if things are as you say. Believers would just automatically obey God after believing in Jesus. For you say that works is the effect and salvation (belief) is the cause. No need to study and apply to our lives any of the commands in the New Testament, right? Just believe in Jesus and your good to go. Right? I say no. This is clearly not what the Bible teaches. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Can you not love Jesus and make it into God's Kingdom? Paul says that if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (See 1 Corinthians 16:22). Yet, you say... just believe. I choose to believe the Bible, and not you, dear sir.​

Believers who are good Bereans will be able to see these truths for themselves.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

those who are saved don't habitually sin.

This is a condition you are setting for salvation. You are saying salvation includes believers who do not habitually sin, so this means that salvation includes one to not habitually to sin.

the effect of salvation is not the cause of salvation. I will not insult your intelligence by assuming you can't distinguish between the concept of cause and effect.

While it is true that the effect is not the cause, it is not true that they are unrelated to each other as you are proposing.

For example:

Rain (Cause) = Flooding (the Effect).
Dam broke (Cause) = Flooding (the Effect).

So yes, while the "Effect" (Flooding) can have different "Causes" (like from Rain, or a Dam breaking) thereby showing that the Cause is not always the same for a same Effect, that does not mean that they are not individually true or unrelated to each other. Rain (the Cause) can uniquely of all it's own result of Flooding (the Effect). If this were to happen (Flood Rains) in a certain area, we know that the Rain is related to the Cause of the Flood. Yet, you attempt to say that salvation is not related to works, which is sort of like saying that a Rain Flood is not from Rain, but yet, you cannot have the Flood without Rain water. It is the Rain Water pooling up in an area that results in the Effect of the Flood. It is the same with Salvation. If Salvation (the Cause) leads to works (the Effect), then that means the Effect is connected and it will always be there. They are tied and married together. They are related. So works is tied or related to salvation. Thus, works is a requirement of salvation, just as a flood can be related to rain (even though floods can have different causes). In other words, your position here is illogical, and it would sort of be like a man who denies that a flood destroyed his home with rain water because he is saying that the Cause is unrelated to the Effect.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Notice how the "Effect" points back to the "Cause." This is because the "Effect" cannot exist without the "Cause." So while Causes can be different from the Effects, that does not mean that they are unrelated or divorced from each other. For Rain (the Cause) can be the result of a Flood (the Effect) to exist. The Flood (the Effect) exists because it is Rain Water (the Cause) pooling up to make this so. It is the same with God's Grace of Salvation (by faith in Christ) resulting in Works of Faith. One cannot have true Works of Faith without God's Grace of Salvation (by faith in Christ). A true saving faith will always have genuine Works of Faith. So the Works of Faith are Necessary as a part of the Salvation Equation.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I already stated that if I met Jesus in the Gospels, this is what he would have said to me Matthew 15:24

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Gentiles were not part of the covenant of God then. We are included only after the Jews rejected Jesus by stoning Stephen.

Do you not accept that the Apostle Paul is the person the ascended Christ Jesus raised to specifically reach us? Paul stated the following in 2 Corinthians 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Simply put, the Jews know Christ in the flesh, but for us Gentiles, we know him in heaven, he gave revelations directly to Paul, for him to teach us what is church doctrine. Going to the 4 Gospels for doctrine is as advisable as going to the OT.

Yes I recall you stating that but don't know what it has to do with my last post? Are you saying what you stated means Jesus was wrong about what he told us to do? Or that for some reason we no longer have to do what Christ said we must do?

I truly don't see anything in your post here that make the teaching of Jesus no longer viable or whatever it is you are claiming. Those verses say we do have to do something in order to be saved, so as simply as possible please tell me why you say we don't have to do anything?

Are you actually saying we need not obey Jesus today? IOW, his dying on the cross was for us, but not what he tells us we should do? I've never heard such a thing, someone is not being truthful with you. What a terrible thing to teach as truth that we don't have to obey Jesus

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I already stated that if I met Jesus in the Gospels, this is what he would have said to me Matthew 15:24

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Gentiles were not part of the covenant of God then. We are included only after the Jews rejected Jesus by stoning Stephen.

Do you not accept that the Apostle Paul is the person the ascended Christ Jesus raised to specifically reach us? Paul stated the following in 2 Corinthians 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Simply put, the Jews know Christ in the flesh, but for us Gentiles, we know him in heaven, he gave revelations directly to Paul, for him to teach us what is church doctrine. Going to the 4 Gospels for doctrine is as advisable as going to the OT.

While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.

#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.

For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).

Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).​

#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.

Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).

Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).

John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).

Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).​

#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.

Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).​

#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.

Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).​

#5. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.

Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬).

Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).​

#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring for the right kind of food relates to everlasting life.

Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).

Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).​

#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).

Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).

Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

​

Side Note:

Please take note that James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So the faithless that Jesus talks about are those who are fruitless or those who do not have any truly good works. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is also a revealing passage, as well. Basically it is saying what you are not supposed to be like. For this passage describes those who have a form of godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. This means that a Belief Alone Type Gospel (that leads to one not being concerned about sin or not treating it as seriously) is simply not true. For the moment I tell someone that all they need to do to be saved is to believe in Jesus and nothing else, they are going to not be concerned with living holy (because they do not think it is necessary to enter God's Kingdom).​

 

[Guojing]

Yes I recall you stating that but don't know what it has to do with my last post? Are you saying what you stated means Jesus was wrong about what he told us to do? Or that for some reason we no longer have to do what Christ said we must do?

I truly don't see anything in your post here that make the teaching of Jesus no longer viable or whatever it is you are claiming. Those verses say we do have to do something in order to be saved, so as simply as possible please tell me why you say we don't have to do anything?

Are you actually saying we need not obey Jesus today? IOW, his dying on the cross was for us, but not what he tells us we should do? I've never heard such a thing, someone is not being truthful with you. What a terrible thing to teach as truth that we don't have to obey Jesus

First, you need to understand that Jesus was speaking to the Jews under the Law. He was there to fulfill the law on all their behalf. Thus, you have to be careful not to think that everything he commanded to the Jews, are also relevant for us now under the Gospel of Grace.

We can learn from what he taught the Jews then, most certainly, but learn to treat the 4 Gospels as similar to how most Christians will treat the OT. No one builds an ark nor make lamb sacrifices now, for very good reasons.

We should obey Jesus yes, but take our doctrine from the Apostle Paul. Under the Gospel of Grace that was revealed to Paul, We do not obey to be saved nor to be justified. So I definitely disagree with you in what you have said above in bold.

Also, even if we slip in our obedience, don't have the idea that your prayers are less likely to be answered.

 

[Guojing]

While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.

If you believed that Paul is saying our works have a part to play in eternal life, would you mind sharing how you interpret Romans 5:12-19? Did our works had a part to play in condemning us to sin and death before we accepted Christ's obedience?