The Word and the Scripture

Carl Emerson

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What voice within? Where in scripture does it say that thoughts and feelings that pop into our heads is God's voice within giving us new revelations?

Why would He use such an unreliable method of communication when proponents themselves admit it is virtually indistinguishable from their own thoughts?

Again nonsense...

Romans 8
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Notice verse 16 the communication is His Spirit direct with our spirit.

You would do well not to belittle the work of the Holy Spirit within.

This direct communication between Him and us comes in various forms and does not involve the mind.

Most often through His inspired desires, sometimes an awareness, sometimes a dream, sometimes an illuminated scripture, sometimes a vision, rarely an audible voice. (think Samuel)

Now you don't experience this communication otherwise you would not argue so vehemently against it. Maybe your theology has grieved Him. You are certainly missing out on His intended living communion with you.

By the way when He speaks it is far from indistinguishable, I remember vividly during a prayer meeting His presence 'passed by' and I was unable to speak for several hours.
 
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Carl Emerson

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You are deny the truth contained in 2 Tim 3:16-17. That verse says that scripture is sufficient to thoroughly equip us for every good work. Yet you are saying that scripture is not sufficient and that we need new extra-biblical revelations, by means of thoughts popping into our heads, to give us specific "God told me" instructions.

As I have said before the scripture is perfect for what it is intended for.

If Jesus wants me to know something is happening He will tell me Spirit to spirit. That is biblical. This is not in the mind.

Case in point - I wake up disturbed in my spirit - I feel to pray for my Grandfather (I have no idea why) I ring my mum and we both pray. Then we hear that at that very time his electric blanket burst into flames and my uncle was there on the spot to save him, dragging the blanket off and running out of the house with it...

This is simply a compassionate God caring about us.
 
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Carl Emerson

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How about Jonestown? The Faith Assembly cult where common sense turned into sin if entertained? Etc?, etc? My experience shows the minds of many are driven insane in these circles.

Of course - we are in a spiritual battle and Satan will be in like a robbers dog given half a chance. The fact cults have existed should not cause us to deny His personal guidance and out of fear to invent a theology that demonises it.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I don't believe the charismatic gifts ceased the moment John wrote the last word of Revelation. Prophecy was still necessary in churches that did not have the completed New Testament. (How else would they be guided in the faith?). It took several decades before it was circulated to all the churches.

The early church fathers (eg Origen, Irenaeus) reported that the such gifts were still in operation around 150AD, but we see increasing rarity of the gifts in the patristic reports until around 350-400AD when the later church fathers (eg Chrysostom, Augustine) reported that such gifts had ceased.

Then how do you account for Spurgeon - was he demonised ?

As the church was institutionalised the gifts diminished - no surprise there...
 
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Craig Keener is a charismatic.
I knew that.
I want to get hold of John MacArthur's book "Strange Fire" and to read it for myself. At the moment I have George Smeaton's "Doctrine of the Holy Spirit" (Banner of Truth Trust) and am finding it very informative.
 
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How about Jonestown? The Faith Assembly cult where common sense turned into sin if entertained? Etc?, etc? My experience shows the minds of many are driven insane in these circles.
I think that the Jonestown tragedy came about because of blind obedience to someone who convinced the people that he had a special ear to God and that they were to do what God told him they should do. Some of those used their common sense and tried to resist, but they were murdered by Jones' cronies before they could influence others.

I saw elements of this in a Charismatic church I attended for 7 years, where there was a "senior elder" who clearly implied that what God told him was guidance for the congregation. When the other elders of the church tried to correct him, he either manipulated them out of the church, or just ignored them. In the end, shortly after I left, he left the church with half the congregation, started his on with him at the top of the pyramid so he could exert his "god-given" authority unchecked.

Furthermore, this type of blind obedience to authority is seen when the leader of a mega-church has got himself into trouble through sexual immorality or financial dishonesty, had to resign his post, and many of his followers becoming disillusioned and walking away from the church and from Christ - because they did not see that there is a great difference between a human pastor and Christ. What happened was that these people worshiped the pastor, made him their god instead of Christ, and when he failed them, they walked away from the faith altogether.
 
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swordsman1

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Romans 8
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Notice verse 16 the communication is His Spirit direct with our spirit.

Those two verses in Romans 8 are nothing to do with God's voice being an inner feeling, as I already explained in post #29

So I'll ask again...Where in scripture does it say that thoughts and feelings that pop into our heads is God's voice within giving us new revelations?


You would do well not to belittle the work of the Holy Spirit within.

Extra-biblical revelations via inner feelings and thoughts popping into your head is not work of the Holy Spirit. And you would do well to "never to impute the vain imaginings of your fancy to Him" and to "no longer insult the Holy Ghost by laying such nonsense at His door" (as Spurgeon puts it).

Now you don't experience this communication otherwise you would not argue so vehemently against it. Maybe your theology has grieved Him. You are certainly missing out on His intended living communion with you.

I often get a strong feeling about not wanting to go to work. Is that God telling me to quit my job?

I watched a TV program about Hawaii and felt that would be nice place to live. Was that God telling me to move to Hawaii?
 
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swordsman1

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If Jesus wants me to know something is happening He will tell me Spirit to spirit. That is biblical. This is not in the mind.

Case in point - I wake up disturbed in my spirit - I feel to pray for my Grandfather (I have no idea why) I ring my mum and we both pray. Then we hear that at that very time his electric blanket burst into flames and my uncle was there on the spot to save him, dragging the blanket off and running out of the house with it...

As I've said before unsubstantiated hearsay is not proof of anything. But I notice you say you "feel" things.

If a doctor says the lump in your body is cancer, but you feel absolutely fine. Should you believe your feelings?

A drunkard might feel he is perfectly able to drive a car. Should he believe his feelings?

Subjective feelings and impressions are the greatest of liars, not God's way of giving us instructions.
People have strong feelings and emotions all the time and to say there is a "God told me" in them is naive and dangerous. The "God told me" mysticism of today causes no end of problems. Christians bounce from pillar to post from one "God told me" to the next. Satan is never happier when the believers are no longer relying on the scriptures to guide them, but are led into error and confusion by following their own feelings and emotions, deluded into thinking it is God directing them.
 
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swordsman1

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Then how do you account for Spurgeon - was he demonised ?

No, Spurgeon was telling the truth when he said:

"It is a dangerous thing for us to make the whims of our brain instead of the clear precepts of God, the guide of our moral actions."

"but as to impressions, and whims, and fancies, and I know not what beside which some have taken,—these are more wreckers lights that will entice you on the rocks. Hold fast to the Word of God, and nothing else; whoever he shall be that shall guide you otherwise, close your ears to him."

"To live by impressions is oftentimes to live the life of a fool and even to fall into downright rebellion against the revealed Word of God. Not your impressions, but that which is in this Bible must always guide you."​
 
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Carl Emerson

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Exactly, I made it clear I am talking about His spirit communicates with our spirit - it is not the mind.

You did not explain how Spurgeon was able to reveal significant detail in the lives of his hearers without hearing this from God.

And I guess anything that challenges your position is going to be labeled as unsubstantiated hearsay. (I have in some cases supplied names and invited anyone to PM me if they require verification.)

I have continued with you not so much for your sake but for the sake of those who might be confused by your claims.

Have a great day, I am not really into debating, let the reader decide if Jesus is indwelling born again believers and He is not silent despite your claims.
 
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Dave L

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I think that the Jonestown tragedy came about because of blind obedience to someone who convinced the people that he had a special ear to God and that they were to do what God told him they should do. Some of those used their common sense and tried to resist, but they were murdered by Jones' cronies before they could influence others.

I saw elements of this in a Charismatic church I attended for 7 years, where there was a "senior elder" who clearly implied that what God told him was guidance for the congregation. When the other elders of the church tried to correct him, he either manipulated them out of the church, or just ignored them. In the end, shortly after I left, he left the church with half the congregation, started his on with him at the top of the pyramid so he could exert his "god-given" authority unchecked.

Furthermore, this type of blind obedience to authority is seen when the leader of a mega-church has got himself into trouble through sexual immorality or financial dishonesty, had to resign his post, and many of his followers becoming disillusioned and walking away from the church and from Christ - because they did not see that there is a great difference between a human pastor and Christ. What happened was that these people worshiped the pastor, made him their god instead of Christ, and when he failed them, they walked away from the faith altogether.
But we have a direct connection of mental illness and Pentecostalism you don't see in mainline churches.

Religious affiliation and psychiatric disorder among Protestant baby boomers. - PubMed - NCBI
 
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Dave L

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But we have a direct connection of mental illness and Pentecostalism you don't see in mainline churches.

Religious affiliation and psychiatric disorder among Protestant baby boomers. - PubMed - NCBI
I haven't noticed that in NZ Pentecostals, but then we away down in UpsidedownLand have that British cultural reserve and Americans may not have.

Actually, when I left my last Charismatic church in 1978, I joined my local Anglican church, and the Curate came around to visit us. He said that after three weeks, I will be as mad as the rest of them! And he was right! :)
 
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Carl Emerson

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Sorry to divert a little but this reminded me of when I took communion in the Christchurch Cathedral back in the day, Dean Underhill was presiding and I will never forget what he said to me... "My son... the more holy you become... the more absent minded you become... !!!
 
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Sorry to divert a little but this reminded me of when I took communion in the Christchurch Cathedral back in the day, Dean Underhill was presiding and I will never forget what he said to me... "My son... the more holy you become... the more absent minded you become... !!!
I can relate to that. I have a tee shirt which says, "I'm not forgetful; I'm just having a senior moment!"
 
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Carl Emerson

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I can relate to that. I have a tee shirt which says, "I'm not forgetful; I'm just having a senior moment!"

Yes, and there was a profound double meaning a well...

The more we hear and obey the Holy Spirit within, the less the mind of the flesh dominates our actions.
 
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GTW27

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I enjoyed his article and it gives me a better perspective on the issues surrounding the Charismatic movement, and has restored my complete confidence in my place in it. I needed to read that article, and I appreciate you pointing me to it. I must see if I can get his book about the Gifts and the Giver. I think that will be very helpful to me. I like John MacArthur as a Bible teacher, as long as he keeps away from his "hard Cessationist" views concerning the Charismatic movement and the gifts.

Why would you want to read one of his books? The Holy Spirit within a man can not be half right, He is always right. Dig deeper into this man Oscar for there is nothing hidden that can not be revealed. There are even more things you need to see. And this is the topic that before, if you remember, I said needed to be preached, (The Holy Spirit in us). Thank you Carl. Next should be (The Power and Authority of The Holy Spirit with in us). And Oscar, before you write, please don't shoot the messenger LOL.
 
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Why would you want to read one of his books? The Holy Spirit within a man can not be half right, He is always right. Dig deeper into this man Oscar for there is nothing hidden that can not be revealed. There are even more things you need to see. And this is the topic that before, if you remember, I said needed to be preached, (The Holy Spirit in us). Thank you Carl. Next should be (The Power and Authority of The Holy Spirit with in us). And Oscar, before you write, please don't shoot the messenger LOL.
Neither MacArthur or Keener are Jesus, or are they the Holy Spirit. They are fallible human beings. Their writing and teaching is based on Scripture the way they see it. In the New Testament, only the Apostles had the direct inspiration to have their teaching recorded as Scripture.

Even Paul had to be tested and double checked when he went and preached the gospel, as the Bereans searched the Scriptures to make sure that what Paul was preaching was the truth.

A lot of people thought that Jim Jones was totally right, and they did not search the Scriptures to confirm that what he was teaching was true, and you know what happened to them!

Another one was David Karesh. His followers also thought he was totally correct, without checking with the Scriptures, and they ended up being barbecued!

No man is totally right in what he teaches. We must confirm what he teaches from the Scriptures, in that way, we are able to discern which of his teaching is correct, and which is just his own opinion which we can take or leave.
 
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