The Word and the Scripture

Carl Emerson

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The whole of 1 & 2 Timothy was addressed to Timothy. Does that mean we ignore the whole of those 2 epistles? In fact most of the epistles in the New Testament are addressed to a specific person or church. Should we tear those from our bibles as well?

In any case 2 Tim 3:16-17 is a general statement of fact about scripture, not a personal instruction to Timothy.

You'll have to do better than that in trying to deny the sufficiency of scripture.
I note the way you present extremes to bolster your indefensible position.

The scripture as we have it didn't exist when that statement was made.

The comment was a personal advice to Timothy and there is no justification for turning it into a declaration that He within us no longer speaks... this is nonsense.
 
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swordsman1

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I note the way you present extremes to bolster your indefensible position.

The scripture as we have it didn't exist when that statement was made.

The comment was a personal advice to Timothy and there is no justification for turning it into a declaration that He within us no longer speaks... this is nonsense.

There is no personal advice in this particular statement, it is simply stating a doctrinal truth....

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.


Scripture is all inspired writings. The apostles declared their own writings to be "scripture". That would include their future writings as well as their past writings. So the fact that some scriptures were still to be written when Paul wrote this is irrelevant.
 
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swordsman1

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By the way I have never said the scripture is less than perfect for it's divine purpose. But to say it replaces His voice is serious error.

You are denying the sufficiency of scripture though, one of the tenets of protestant Christianity. What is worse though is denying it by means of an unbiblical practice.

His "voice" is scripture.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Where in scripture does it say the the scripture replaces His voice within?

Frankly this is little more than a theology fabricated by those who want to justify an impotent church.
If you have wandered away and lose the lampstand, you are going to want to say that the Holy Spirit no longer speaks.
This normalises the distance from God and allows for business as usual...
Sadly this is what we see in many churches today. Museums that faithfully preserve a structure that lost its life long ago.
Wake up and return to Him and the living voice within convicting of sin righteousness and judgement. (or do you think that no longer happens either?)
He who has an ear let him hear...
 
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Carl Emerson

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You are denying the sufficiency of scripture though, one of the tenets of protestant Christianity. What is worse though is denying it by means of an unbiblical practice.

His "voice" is scripture.

Nonsense I clearly stated the scripture is perfect for it's divine purpose.

Since when is hearing God unbiblical.

I will leave you with your views and continue to encourage believers to hone their ability to hear God's voice. There is nothing more beautiful.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It is marvelous to me that all these years of debate between us, we are basically on the same page as far as these things are concerned. I have viewed around 45 hours of John MacArthur's ministry now, and I can't get enough of him. He ranks as one of the best, along with the best Puritan Bible teachers that I have read and enjoyed. It is like, after 50 years in the faith, getting a refresher course in the basics.

He is largely correct in what he says about the Charismatic movement. The only bit that I don't agree with is his Cessationist views, and you know that pretty well after all the discussions and debates we have had about that. But that is the only issue I have with him. After reading Dave Hunt, and viewing John MacArthur's ministry, I don't think I could associate with a Charismatic church that practices the things that both Mr Hunt and MacArthur identify as pagan mind-control or the occult.

The real power of God is the Holy Spirit working with the gospel of Christ. Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, because it is the power of God unto salvation for all those who believe". The real miracle is a sinner turning to Christ, because only the Holy Spirit can genuinely convert a person to Him. If more Charismatics (and others) spent more time with God asking and pleading with Him to exercise His power to save souls from Hell, than trying to have sensory experiences and bodily manifestations, we would have much stronger, more effective churches in our communities which would indeed change our societies for good.

Oscarr,

You might like to check this out...

John MacArthur’s Strange Fire, reviewed by Craig S. Keener

Craig has some serious credentials and experience.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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The theory is that since the scripture is written, Jesus is silent, as His voice is replaced by the scriptures. That means that believers who have the Holy Spirit inside must expect Him now to be silent. Anyone claiming to experience guidance from God is deceived as we now have the bible that has replaced God's voice.

The person is confusing and conflating the written word of God and the Logos of the Godhead.

And yes at different times I have seen similar things where certain Charismatic Protestants have elevated the Scriptures to almost divine levels inadvertently by overstating their importance (trying to motivate people to read their Bible etc,) stating or implying that they are almost like a Demiurge creative force (e.g. comparing them to the Spoken word of Genesis) which if you run with it obviously gets into a heretical direction and robs the Son and HS of the Godhead of their proper place, not to mention also over elevates the Scriptures above the line resembling more what Muslims believe about the Koran (not just inspired, and perfect in its original autograph, but completely perfect, eternal etc.)

Logos | philosophy and theology
 
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Carl Emerson

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Mr. Spurgeon had no difficulty hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit...

Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834-92) was the prominent Baptist preacher in England during the 19th century, who spoke of a “sermon at Exeter Hall in which he suddenly broke off from his subject, and pointing in a certain direction, said, `Young man, those gloves you are wearing have not been paid for: you have stolen them from your employer’. At the close of the service, a young man, looking very pale and greatly agitated, came to the room, which was used as a vestry, and begged for a private interview with Spurgeon. On being admitted, he placed a pair of gloves upon the table, and tearfully said, `It’s the first time I have robbed my master, and I will never do it again. You won’t expose me, sir, will you? It would kill my mother if she heard that I had become a thief’.”

“On another occasion while he was preaching, Spurgeon said there was a man in the gallery who had a bottle of gin in his pocket. This not only startled the man in the gallery who had the gin, but it also led to his conversion.”

“While preaching in the hall, on one occasion, I deliberately pointed to a man in the midst of the crowd, and said, `There is a man sitting there, who is a shoemaker; he keeps his shop open on Sundays, it was open last Sabbath morning, he took nine pence, and there was four pence profit out of it; his soul is sold to Satan for four pence!’ A city missionary, when going his rounds, met with this man, and seeing that he was reading one of my sermons, he asked the question, `Do you know Mr Spurgeon?’ `Yes,’ replied the man `I have every reason to know him, I have been to hear him; and under his preaching, by God’s grace I have become a new creature in Christ Jesus. Shall I tell you how it happened? I went to the Music Hall, and took my seat in the middle of the place: Mr Spurgeon looked at me as if he knew me, and in his sermon he pointed to me, and told the congregation that I was a shoemaker, and that I kept my shop open on Sundays; and I did, sir. I should not have minded that; but he also said that I took nine pence the Sunday before, and that there was four pence profit; but how he should know that, I could not tell. Then it struck me that it was God who had spoken to my soul through him, so I shut up my shop the next Sunday. At first, I was afraid to go again to hear him, lest he should tell the people more about me; but afterwards I went, and the Lord met with me, and saved my soul.'”

“I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, `Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit. I have sometimes seen persons nudge their neighbours with their elbow, because they had got a smart hit, and they have been heard to say, when they were going out, `The preacher told us just what we said to one another when we went in at the door.'”
 
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Carl Emerson

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I know we are not talking sign gifts but these are linked to hearing the indwelling Holy Spirit

Irenaeus
was born in the first half of the second century (his birth date has been suggested between 115-125) and died towards the end of that century. As one of the first great theologians of the church, he was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus became bishop of Lyons, Gaul (France today).

Irenaeus assures us that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit had not disappeared by the end of the second century. He wrote in a leading refutation of Gnosticism, Against Heresies (written about 180):

“Those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ”.

So Irenaeus knew of the practice of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in his day. Thus, they did not cease with the death of the Twelve and the formation of the New Testament canon of Scripture. It is estimated that the last book of the New Testament was written about AD 95-96 (the Book of Revelation). Thus, Irenaeus refutes John MacArthur’s statement that “once the Word of God was inscripturated, the sign gifts were no longer needed and they ceased”. Irenaeus clearly shows the existence of sign gifts in the church over 100 years after the completion of the canon of Scripture.
 
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My son is at Laidlaw and they flew Craig over to present on deliverance. He has 2 Phd's.
I enjoyed his article and it gives me a better perspective on the issues surrounding the Charismatic movement, and has restored my complete confidence in my place in it. I needed to read that article, and I appreciate you pointing me to it. I must see if I can get his book about the Gifts and the Giver. I think that will be very helpful to me. I like John MacArthur as a Bible teacher, as long as he keeps away from his "hard Cessationist" views concerning the Charismatic movement and the gifts.
 
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swordsman1

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Where in scripture does it say the the scripture replaces His voice within?

Frankly this is little more than a theology fabricated by those who want to justify an impotent church.
If you have wandered away and lose the lampstand, you are going to want to say that the Holy Spirit no longer speaks.
This normalises the distance from God and allows for business as usual...
Sadly this is what we see in many churches today. Museums that faithfully preserve a structure that lost its life long ago.
Wake up and return to Him and the living voice within convicting of sin righteousness and judgement. (or do you think that no longer happens either?)
He who has an ear let him hear...

What voice within? Where in scripture does it say that thoughts and feelings that pop into our heads is God's voice within giving us new revelations?

Why would He use such an unreliable method of communication when proponents themselves admit it is virtually indistinguishable from their own thoughts?
 
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swordsman1

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Nonsense I clearly stated the scripture is perfect for it's divine purpose.

Since when is hearing God unbiblical.

I will leave you with your views and continue to encourage believers to hone their ability to hear God's voice. There is nothing more beautiful.

You are deny the truth contained in 2 Tim 3:16-17. That verse says that scripture is sufficient to thoroughly equip us for every good work. Yet you are saying that scripture is not sufficient and that we need new extra-biblical revelations, by means of thoughts popping into our heads, to give us specific "God told me" instructions.
 
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Dave L

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Dave Hunt's book "Seduction of Christianity" gives some good answers to that. He has written another book dealing with the extent of the Occult which has invaded the church, and these two books opened my eyes to the extent in which pagan mind-control and the occult has invaded the main-stream Charismatic movement. That turned that side of my theology on its head!

I think it was God's grace and protection that I got introduced to Puritan theology earlier on in my Christian life, because it has provided a strong, sound, doctrinal foundation which has remained strong when I knew I had to turn away from many former Charismatic practices which I, on close examination of the New Testament, I couldn't find in it.

Charismatics treat everything supernatural as coming from the Holy Spirit. Therefore if a telepathic "voice" is heard, many cannot distinguish between what they are hearing which could be from the Holy Spirit, and what could be a psychotic schizophrenic episode! Therefore it is no surprise that those who are depending on "voices" fall into mental health problems, because they are hearing the wrong voices!
How about Jonestown? The Faith Assembly cult where common sense turned into sin if entertained? Etc?, etc? My experience shows the minds of many are driven insane in these circles.
 
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Dave L

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Exegesis 101...

Who is the audience?

Answer: Timothy.

What is the context?

Answer: Preparation for ministry

Question: was Paul making a statement that the Holy Spirit within believers was henceforth silent?

Answer: NO
So scripture isn't for today?
 
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swordsman1

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Mr. Spurgeon had no difficulty hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit...

Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834-92) was the prominent Baptist preacher in England during the 19th century, who spoke of a “sermon at Exeter Hall in which he suddenly broke off from his subject, and pointing in a certain direction, said, `Young man, those gloves you are wearing have not been paid for: you have stolen them from your employer’. At the close of the service, a young man, looking very pale and greatly agitated, came to the room, which was used as a vestry, and begged for a private interview with Spurgeon. On being admitted, he placed a pair of gloves upon the table, and tearfully said, `It’s the first time I have robbed my master, and I will never do it again. You won’t expose me, sir, will you? It would kill my mother if she heard that I had become a thief’.”

“On another occasion while he was preaching, Spurgeon said there was a man in the gallery who had a bottle of gin in his pocket. This not only startled the man in the gallery who had the gin, but it also led to his conversion.”

“While preaching in the hall, on one occasion, I deliberately pointed to a man in the midst of the crowd, and said, `There is a man sitting there, who is a shoemaker; he keeps his shop open on Sundays, it was open last Sabbath morning, he took nine pence, and there was four pence profit out of it; his soul is sold to Satan for four pence!’ A city missionary, when going his rounds, met with this man, and seeing that he was reading one of my sermons, he asked the question, `Do you know Mr Spurgeon?’ `Yes,’ replied the man `I have every reason to know him, I have been to hear him; and under his preaching, by God’s grace I have become a new creature in Christ Jesus. Shall I tell you how it happened? I went to the Music Hall, and took my seat in the middle of the place: Mr Spurgeon looked at me as if he knew me, and in his sermon he pointed to me, and told the congregation that I was a shoemaker, and that I kept my shop open on Sundays; and I did, sir. I should not have minded that; but he also said that I took nine pence the Sunday before, and that there was four pence profit; but how he should know that, I could not tell. Then it struck me that it was God who had spoken to my soul through him, so I shut up my shop the next Sunday. At first, I was afraid to go again to hear him, lest he should tell the people more about me; but afterwards I went, and the Lord met with me, and saved my soul.'”

“I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, `Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit. I have sometimes seen persons nudge their neighbours with their elbow, because they had got a smart hit, and they have been heard to say, when they were going out, `The preacher told us just what we said to one another when we went in at the door.'”


Spurgeon here was speaking about how on one occasion while preaching he felt led to spontaneously say something specific which, if we can trust the testimony of the shoemaker, happened to be true. (Not that Spurgeon is an infallible authority on such matters). But "inspired preaching" is not what we are discussing here. On the topic of God giving extra-biblical revelations via thoughts popping into people's heads, Spurgeon leaves us in no doubt on what he thinks:


Charles Spurgeon - “The Paraclete”

Take care never to impute the vain imaginings of your fancy to Him [the Holy Spirit]. I have seen the Spirit of God shamefully dishonored by persons – I hope they were insane – who have said that they have had this and that revealed to them. There has not for some years passed over my head a single week in which I have not been pestered with the revelations of hypocrites or maniacs. Semi-lunatics are very fond of coming with messages from the Lord to me, and it may spare them some trouble if I tell them once for all that I will have none of their stupid messages… Never dream that events are revealed to you by heaven, or you may come to be like those idiots who dare impute their blatant follies to the Holy Ghost. If you feel your tongue itch to talk nonsense, trace it to the devil, not to the Spirit of God. Whatever is to be revealed by the Spirit to any of us is in the Word of God already – He adds nothing to the Bible, and never will. Let persons who have revelations of this, that, and the other, go to bed and wake up in their senses. I only wish they would follow the advice and no longer insult the Holy Ghost by laying their nonsense at His door.


Charles Spurgeon - “Intelligent Obedience”

Others, too, judge of their duty by impressions. “If I feel it impressed upon my mind,” says one, “I shall do, it.” Does God command you to do it? This is the proper question. If he does, you should make haste, whether it is impressed upon your mind or not; but if there be no command to that effect, or rather, if it diverges from the line of God’s statutes, and needs apology or explanation, hold your hand, for though you have ten thousand impressions, yet must you never dare to go by them. It is a dangerous thing for us to make the whims of our brain instead of the clear precepts of God, the guide of our moral actions. ” To the law and to the testimony,”—this is the lamp that shows the Christian true light; be this your chart, be this your compass; but as to impressions, and whims, and fancies, and I know not what beside which some have taken,—these are more wreckers lights that will entice you on the rocks. Hold fast to the Word of God, and nothing else; whoever he shall be that shall guide you otherwise, close your ears to him.


Charles Spurgeon - “A Well Ordered Life”

To live by impressions is oftentimes to live the life of a fool and even to fall into downright rebellion against the revealed Word of God. Not your impressions, but that which is in this Bible must always guide you. ‘To the Law and to the Testimony.’ If it is not according to this Word, the impression comes not from God — it may proceed from Satan, or from your own distempered brain! Our prayer must be, ‘Order my steps in Your Word.’ Now, that rule of life, the written Word of God, we ought to study and obey.


Charles Spurgeon - “Enquiring of God”

I was once in conversation with two friends, one of whom was guided by his judgment, while the other was swayed by impressions, and I could not help noting that the man who was guided by impressions was, as such people always will be, “unstable as water.” If I am impressed in one way one day, I may be impressed in another way the next day, so impressions are unreliable guides. There was a young man, who was impressed with the idea that he ought to preach for me one Lord’s day; but as I was not impressed to let him do so, it stood over, and probably will continue to stand over for some little time. He had no gifts of speech, but he thought his impression was quite sufficient.​
 
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swordsman1

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I know we are not talking sign gifts but these are linked to hearing the indwelling Holy Spirit

Irenaeus
was born in the first half of the second century (his birth date has been suggested between 115-125) and died towards the end of that century. As one of the first great theologians of the church, he was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus became bishop of Lyons, Gaul (France today).

Irenaeus assures us that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit had not disappeared by the end of the second century. He wrote in a leading refutation of Gnosticism, Against Heresies (written about 180):

“Those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ”.

So Irenaeus knew of the practice of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in his day. Thus, they did not cease with the death of the Twelve and the formation of the New Testament canon of Scripture. It is estimated that the last book of the New Testament was written about AD 95-96 (the Book of Revelation). Thus, Irenaeus refutes John MacArthur’s statement that “once the Word of God was inscripturated, the sign gifts were no longer needed and they ceased”. Irenaeus clearly shows the existence of sign gifts in the church over 100 years after the completion of the canon of Scripture.

I don't believe the charismatic gifts ceased the moment John wrote the last word of Revelation. Prophecy was still necessary in churches that did not have the completed New Testament. (How else would they be guided in the faith?). It took several decades before it was circulated to all the churches.

The early church fathers (eg Origen, Irenaeus) reported that the such gifts were still in operation around 150AD, but we see increasing rarity of the gifts in the patristic reports until around 350-400AD when the later church fathers (eg Chrysostom, Augustine) reported that such gifts had ceased.
 
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