The Word and the Scripture

[Steven Beck]

Hi there,

One of our members said the following.

"God works through his word. Hearing comes by believing and believing the word of God. Jesus is the word and the ''word'' is now scripture."

Now this claim that Jesus is no longer the Word poses problems for me.

The theory is that since the scripture is written, Jesus is silent, as His voice is replaced by the scriptures. That means that believers who have the Holy Spirit inside must expect Him now to be silent. Anyone claiming to experience guidance from God is deceived as we now have the bible that has replaced God's voice.

While I hold the bible to be our God given authority on matters of faith and life, we can't understand it unless the Spirit of God speaks. Further no where do I read that the Voice of the Holy Spirit which the Apostles heard, is now silent. I will go as far as to say that those who hold this position and making an Idol out of scripture.

I hold the position that He wants us to enjoy a conversational relationship with Him through prayer as we walk with Him in 'the way' and that this leads to a beautiful life of faith as we hear and obey Him in the detail of life.

Your comments greatly appreciated.

I find a lot of the following comments leave me in a state of bemusement. There is so much denial when it comes to the Holy Spirit. Why do people who are supposedly Christians deny the Holy Spirit? After my conversion from pagan to follower of Christ I found myself in a Baptist Church (Australia). One of the beliefs of this denomination is that spiritual gifts ceased to exist. Yeah right. Of course when you talk about spiritual gifts the HS denier immediately thinks of tongues and healing but, believe it or not, two very important gifts is word of knowledge and word of wisdom and of course these two are definitely extra biblical. For example in 2010 I found myself out of a job and in my mid 50's. I had no idea what I could do. There were no jobs for people my age in the town where I was living at that time. So a few weeks of prayer and one day I was driving to the local shopping centre not even thinking about jobs when a voice spoke and said "driving instructor". I can see DaveL choking on his corn flakes have spasms LOL. It was something I would never have thought of myself.

OK so why the angst over HS gifts? Easy, since Satan can copy them of course. Are tongues real? Yes but Satan can have his people do tongues. The gifts are a double edged sword and most people are frightened since they don't understand what is happening and Satan uses this to his advantage.

The spiritual life is the real Christian life. It is a pity that I was only on the edge of it but I think God knew what He was doing by keeping me at the edge. Basically the wrong personality.

The Word is still the Word. He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. He was the Word before the beginning and will be the Word after the end and He is the Word in between.

 

[GTW27]

GTW can you clarify - were you referring to MacArthur or Keener?

Blessings in Christ Jesus! MacArthur. One day I was led to dig deeper and there it was. In the same way I know that you are my brother in Christ Jesus I know that he is not. Because we are One, our doctrine is the same, even though our callings may be different. There is no false teaching in those that are born from above. For me, I live, because He gave me life. This life is not from below, but comes from above. The rest of my days are directed by Him and Him alone. And how can they be directed without being heard? "My sheep hear my voice". Yes we do have to be careful in what we hear, for the enemy is constantly working to make us stumble.(and then accuse to no avail) I know that the testimonies you have given are true as I have the same, probably enough to fill many books if they were ever written down. So that you may know, before, I sought an answer for you and received nothing. And then the next day, I wrote was I was given at that moment. I did not understand it, but I know from where it came. May The Lord Bless you, and lift you up into the heavenly places Carl!

 

[GTW27]

Neither MacArthur or Keener are Jesus, or are they the Holy Spirit. They are fallible human beings. Their writing and teaching is based on Scripture the way they see it. In the New Testament, only the Apostles had the direct inspiration to have their teaching recorded as Scripture.

Even Paul had to be tested and double checked when he went and preached the gospel, as the Bereans searched the Scriptures to make sure that what Paul was preaching was the truth.

A lot of people thought that Jim Jones was totally right, and they did not search the Scriptures to confirm that what he was teaching was true, and you know what happened to them!

Another one was David Karesh. His followers also thought he was totally correct, without checking with the Scriptures, and they ended up being barbecued!

No man is totally right in what he teaches. We must confirm what he teaches from the Scriptures, in that way, we are able to discern which of his teaching is correct, and which is just his own opinion which we can take or leave.

You have no need that any man should teach you Oscar. Why do you look around you for that which is within you. Why corrupt(the many books) that which is pure. Follow The One that came to you long ago. And He did meet you exactly where you were, then. And if He were to appear to you today. what would He say? "Follow Me"

 

[Carl Emerson]

Blessings in Christ Jesus! MacArthur. One day I was led to dig deeper and there it was. In the same way I know that you are my brother in Christ Jesus I know that he is not. Because we are One, our doctrine is the same, even though our callings may be different. There is no false teaching in those that are born from above. For me, I live, because He gave me life. This life is not from below, but comes from above. The rest of my days are directed by Him and Him alone. And how can they be directed without being heard? "My sheep hear my voice". Yes we do have to be careful in what we hear, for the enemy is constantly working to make us stumble.(and then accuse to no avail) I know that the testimonies you have given are true as I have the same, probably enough to fill many books if they were ever written down. So that you may know, before, I sought an answer for you and received nothing. And then the next day, I wrote was I was given at that moment. I did not understand it, but I know from where it came. May The Lord Bless you, and lift you up into the heavenly places Carl!

Nice post thanks, Maybe you should consider doing a testimony thread as well???

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You have no need that any man should teach you Oscar. Why do you look around you for that which is within you. Why corrupt(the many books) that which is pure. Follow The One that came to you long ago. And He did meet you exactly where you were, then. And if He were to appear to you today. what would He say? "Follow Me"

What do you think of Paul's instruction to Timothy?
"And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others" (2 Timothy 2:2).

This shows that Paul supported Bible teachers, and also he listed "teacher" as one of the five-fold ministry gifts.

So, if you are saying not to give heed to Bible teachers, then you should walk out of church before the sermon, to be consistent with your view that the teaching of man is not as valid as your own view of Scripture or that inner 'voice' that you believe is teaching you all that you need to know.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What do you think of Paul's instruction to Timothy?
"And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others" (2 Timothy 2:2).

This shows that Paul supported Bible teachers, and also he listed "teacher" as one of the five-fold ministry gifts.

So, if you are saying not to give heed to Bible teachers, then you should walk out of church before the sermon, to be consistent with your view that the teaching of man is not as valid as your own view of Scripture or that inner 'voice' that you believe is teaching you all that you need to know.

The trick is to have His inner witness between us and the preacher, teacher, book or person. This means He will confirm the validity or not of what is presented. I must say however that this sense of rightness comes after may years reading the Word and walking with Him. It is so easy to filter through inner prejudice and not His wisdom.

 

[swordsman1]

The trick is to have His inner witness between us and the preacher, teacher, book or person. This means He will confirm the validity or not of what is presented. I must say however that this sense of rightness comes after may years reading the Word and walking with Him. It is so easy to filter through inner prejudice and not His wisdom.

So when we hear a sermon, we don't have to think about what was said, instead the Holy Spirit will listen for us and then give us a 'nudge' at the end to tell us if it was right or not?

I guess Paul was wrong in commending the Bereans for confirming his teaching by examining scripture. What he should have told them was to listen for the Holy Spirit's 'nudge' instead.

And all of us who disagree with charismatic teaching should have received such a nudge it was right but we chose to ignore it?

And during the centuries of non-charismatic teaching before the movement came on the scene a few decades ago, people should also have received a nudge that it was wrong, but chose to ignore it?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So when we hear a sermon, we don't have to think about what was said, instead the Holy Spirit will listen for us and then give us a 'nudge' at the end to tell us if it was right or not?

I guess Paul was wrong in commending the Bereans for testing his teaching with scripture. What he should have told them was to listen for the Holy Spirit's 'nudge' instead.

And all of us who disagree with charismatic teaching should have received such a nudge but we chose to ignore it?

And during the centuries of non-charismatic teaching before the movement came on the scene a few decades ago, people should also have received a nudge that it was wrong, but chose to ignore it?

As you know, there are many various flavours subsumed under the "Charismatic" banner. I think it may be a generalisation to tar all Charismatics with the same brush. When I was a young Christian in the late 1960s, "Charismatics" were identified as Evangelical churches and believers who had decided to no longer stay in the Cessationist camp, and to adopt the Continuist position - that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were active today and did not cease at the end of the Apostolic age. In the main, the Charismatics in the traditional churches retained the culture and theology of the denomination they were associated with. At least that is the way I saw it in 1966.

It is also interesting that the AOG church I was associated with was Evangelical, and the pastor preached the Word expositively, and did not believe in the "gimmics", as he viewed the more outlandish practices of the Pentecostal church of the time. But then, he was from the North of Englland, and their views were quite different to what American Pentecostals had. British Pentecostals were the most conservative Evangelicals of all Pentecostals, and even the AOG church in Wellington didn't like him because he was too conservative in God's Word for them! His mission statement was "Jesus is supreme!"

But in the intervening years, I have noticed some big changes in the mainstream Charismatic movement with many "Charismatic" traditional churches dropping the denomination they were associated with, buying churches from the denomination, or setting up separate churches and becoming more identified as independent "Charismatic" churches. In the early 1970s, a Baptist church became Charismatic, and after a short while, succeeded from the Baptist union and formed their own independent church. Then they become infected with the Shepherding/Discipleship movement that originated in Fort Laudedale, which caused immeasurable harm, dividing churches and hurting individuals and driving many away from the faith.

After that, the television evangelists popped up with all their gimmics and excesses, and moved the mainstream away from the foundation of Scripture to the "guidance of the Holy Spirit", with the belief that the written Scriptures were the dead letter, and the leading of the Holy Spirit was the real cutting edge of what God was doing. Then we had the Vineyard movement, Bethel church and the rise of the Charismatic mega-churches.

Through that, the Word of Faith movement started, with Kenneth Copeland and others preaching guaranteed healing, prosperity, and positive confession, and through that, the rot set in with the emphasis on sensory experiences and manifestations. Even the mainline Pentecostal churches were infected.

But I was fortunate to have that Northern English pastor in the Wellington AOG, and when I moved to another city, was under a pastor who came out of the Methodist Holiness movement, and believed that to be successful in ministry one had to be a man of the Word and of Prayer. His guiding document, along with the Bible, was Bishop Ryle's "Holiness". Whenever he corrected me over an issue, he brought out his Bible and showed me through Scripture where I went wrong and how to put things right. He had no time for all the excesses and gimmics of the Pentecostal and Charismatic practices that he saw in other churches in the city.

Along with my gaining a strong foundation in Puritan theology, and Charles Spurgeon's expository sermons in 11 volumes, plus Calvin's commentaries of the Old and New Testaments, I am thankful that the Lord has enabled me to avoid the problems and issues that exist in much of the mainstream Charismatic movement. That's why when I joined a local Presbyterian Church in 1996, I stayed with it until now. Also, why I have viewed around 50 hours of John MacArthur's ministry and loved every minute of it.

So, I have gone to great lengths here to show that not all Charismatics can be tarred and feathered with the same brush. Not all Reformed Charismatics go along with the pagan mind-control and occult kundalini manifestations that occur in many Charismatic churches.

So, I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit speaks through Scripture. He inspired it, got authors to write it down, influenced the Church to determine the canon and to close it so that no new revelation is to occur. I must say that when the Holy Spirit speaks to my heart He speaks in King James English! Maybe it's because I have read so much Puritan literature, and used the King James Bible for the first 12 years of my Christian life. I think that many more people have been saved through the use of the KJV than any other version since it was published in 1611.

Actually, these days, I am a one-message man. Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners and that the gospel of Christ is the real power of God unto salvation to anyone who believes. If I was given the choice to preach and teach on the gifts of the Holy Spirit or the plain gospel of Christ, I would choose the latter every time, because it is the preaching of the gospel that saves people from hell.

 

[Mathetes66]

I have been busy, Swordsman1, so I haven't responded to your post concerning what I wrote. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

Mathetes: Elijah not only heard an audible voice but he also had a voice come TO HIM (one that he understood but didn't hear audibly).

I respectfully disagree with you on this one for various reasons, although I see the points you are making & I am not going to be dogmatic in saying that you are wrong & I am correct.

First of all, in the 'context,' Elijah had 3 voices directed to him not 2: vss 9,12,13, which I will address shortly. Although vss 9,12 & 13 do not have 'came' in the original Hebrew (thanks for pointing that out, I missed that), the meaning is 'intended.' Why do I say that?

Because out of 48 different translations of the Scripture listed in e-Sword on comparison, THIRTY-SIX out of the 48 STILL put came in the text. Only 4 put it in 'italics.' This multitude of scholars, fluent in the Biblical languages, still put 'came' in the text, because the vast majority agreed that even though it isn't in the Hebrew Masoretic text, the meaning is more clearly understood by including it & it's intent from the context--if came is included--& harmonizes with a multitude of other passages in Scripture, where it does have it.

This is similar to the italicized word, 'unknown' tongues in I Cor 12-14. (KJV, NKJV) There are other examples but I will keep it brief.

So my point being that the majority of translators put it in, to make the intent of the author & the sense of meaning better understood, in vss 9 & 13. And you are correct, that Hebrew word 'said' is in the original of those two verses, but not in vs 12 . You make a good case in this particular passage for it being an audible voice for vss 9 & 13 until we get to vs 12:

Here the Hebrew word, 'voice' (H6963) is found in all three passages, but in this text the qualifying words surrounding 'voice' show that this voice is there but it is silent, a voice perceived but in stillness, a voice that brings calm but not understood. A few translators use whisper, a voice in the midst of sound so low that it is as if someone were barely whispering & the 'still' voice is not understood, only perceived.

a 'still' (H1827 'demamah': 3X in OT; calm, silence, still. Heb. a voice of gentle silence. דְּמָמָה an onomatopoetic word (words mean nothing more than the sound it makes & thus not understood), is allied to our word (deaf &) dumb; barely perceptible sound, being almost silence; literally, "a sound of soft stillness." This was 'scintillatio Divinitatis', says Tertullian, a small sparkle of the Deity, a sweet expression of God’s mind. After the tremendous displays of the violence of nature (howling wind, earthquake, fire), suddenly all is silent, a calming occurs. Job 4:16 'There was a silence ('demamah'), a hush, THEN I heard a voice saying...'

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible: "The Jewish Targum is, 'the voice of those that praise God in silence.'

'small (H1851 'daq': 15X in OT; thin, small, fine, dwarfed, very little thing, something crushed down, resulting in being very thin or fine, as fine dust. The voice is reduced down to a barely detected whispering sound, like someone whispering in one's ear so low it cannot be understood.

Hearing God's voice can be an inner thought, or through the mind or an audible voice or only a voice that the person addressed can hear & others cannot. All these, as I understand Scripture, are addressed.

BTW, I am not charismatic or pentecostal or word of faith believer. I am just a simple mathetes, a disciple & follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have attended various 'denominational' & nondenominational church fellowships over the year & sought to serve as God has gifted me.

I have charismatic brothers & relatives & we love one another in Christ despite our differences. I have never spoken in tongues since being a spiritually born Christian in 1971. That does not mean God cannot give me that gift, but He hasn't chosen to do so. I don't believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a 'second blessing' but being baptized into the body of Christ.

What some refer to as a second blessing is simply walking in the 'power' of the Holy Spirit, with continuous filling. Jesus again is our example of this in Luke 4:1-15, as well the apostles in Acts 1:8. I, too, do not believe in the cessasionist theology, but I would agree that there are abuses in the gifts of the Spirit & I have witnessed them. That being said, I will address your points.

You seem to believe that a voice HAS TO BE AUDIBLE in order to be valid as a voice. I respectfully disagree, though the majority of the time in Scripture it is audible, but not necessarily heard by all. The term 'the voice of the LORD came to...saying' is synonymous with the often used, 'The word of the LORD came to...saying.'

It is God speaking in both. Saul saw Jesus & was blinded, heard the audible voice of the Lord, but those people surrounding him heard the sound of a voice but could not understand it. It was to him only. (Acts 22:1-21) However, in vs 17, it states Paul fell into a trance & 'SAW Jesus saying to Him...' Here Paul was not hearing an audible voice but while in the trance or state of estacy, saw in his mind the picture of Jesus talking to him & was able thus to understand.

The same is also true for the Apostle Peter in Acts 10:10 & 11:5-- DRB And being hungry, he was desirous to taste somewhat. And as they were preparing, there came upon him an ecstasy of mind.

G1611 'ekstasis': used 7X in NT; a displacement of the mind, i.e. Bewilderment, 'ecstasy'. Properly, take out of regular position (standing) & bring into a state of ecstasy (rapture) – like a person "carried out" in trance-like amazement. This state of mind reaches far beyond the powers of ordinary perception & is a throwing of the mind out of its normal state.

In other words, God gave revelation to Saul & Peter, through an estacy of mind. God spoke to them through this displacement of mind out of its normal state & they SAW in their mind's altered state, the Lord speaking to them, although no audible voice was heard.

Ellicott's Commentary: " St. Luke characteristically uses, as in Acts 11:5; Acts 22:17, the technical term ekstasis (whence our English ecstasy) for the state which thus supervened. The state was one in which the normal action of the senses was suspended, like that of Balaam in Numbers 24:4, or that which St. Paul describes in 2Corinthians 12:3, "whether in the body or out of the body" he cannot tell, and, as such, it was, in this instance, made the channel for a revelation of the Divine Will conveyed in symbols which were adapted to the conditions out of which it rose.

Pulpit Commentary: A trance (ἔκστασις) expresses a state of transition from the ordinary state into a new or different state. Applied to a man, it denotes that state in which the external senses & the volition are suspended & all his impressions are derived FROM WITHIN (see Acts 11:5; Acts 22:17). It is also used to express great astonishment (Luke 5:26; Acts 3:10; Mark 5:42). In the LXX. of Gen 2:21 it is spoken of Adam's deep sleep & in Gen 27:33 of Isaac's exceeding trembling.

Cambridge Greek Testament: "He fell into a trance. The word ἔκστασις is used by the LXX. (Genesis 2:21) of the deep sleep sent upon Adam, and also (Genesis 15:12) of that which came upon Abraham, when it was revealed unto him that his seed should be captives in a strange land, before they entered on the possession of Canaan. In like manner here, the vision was disclosed mentally to St Peter..."

Robertson's Word Picture in the NT: "He fell into a trance (egeneto ep' auton ekstasis). More exactly, “An ecstasy came upon him,” in which trance he passed out of himself (ekstasis from existēmi) and from which one came to himself (Acts 12:11). Cf. also Acts 11:5; Acts 22:17. It is thus different from a vision (horama) as in Acts 10:3.

Alford's Commentary: "ἔκστασις] The distinction of this appearance from the ὅραμα (vision) above (though the usage is not always strictly observed) is, that in this case that which was seen was a revelation shewn to the eye of the beholder when rapt into a supernatural state, having, as is the case in a dream, no objective reality: whereas, in the other case, the thing seen actually happened, and was beheld by the person as an ordinary spectator, in the possession of his natural senses.

I will deal with your other points as I have time.

 

[swordsman1]

First of all, in the 'context,' Elijah had 3 voices directed to him not 2: vss 9,12,13, which I will address shortly. Although vss 9,12 & 13 do not have 'came' in the original Hebrew (thanks for pointing that out, I missed that), the meaning is 'intended.' Why do I say that?

Because out of 48 different translations of the Scripture listed in e-Sword on comparison, THIRTY-SIX out of the 48 STILL put came in the text. Only 4 put it in 'italics.' This multitude of scholars, fluent in the Biblical languages, still put 'came' in the text, because the vast majority agreed that even though it isn't in the Hebrew Masoretic text, the meaning is more clearly understood by including it & it's intent from the context--if came is included--& harmonizes with a multitude of other passages in Scripture, where it does have it.

This is similar to the italicized word, 'unknown' tongues in I Cor 12-14. (KJV, NKJV) There are other examples but I will keep it brief.

So my point being that the majority of translators put it in, to make the intent of the author & the sense of meaning better understood, in vss 9 & 13. And you are correct, that Hebrew word 'said' is in the original of those two verses, but not in vs 12 . You make a good case in this particular passage for it being an audible voice for vss 9 & 13 until we get to vs 12:

Here the Hebrew word, 'voice' (H6963) is found in all three passages, but in this text the qualifying words surrounding 'voice' show that this voice is there but it is silent, a voice perceived but in stillness, a voice that brings calm but not understood. A few translators use whisper, a voice in the midst of sound so low that it is as if someone were barely whispering & the 'still' voice is not understood, only perceived.

a 'still' (H1827 'demamah': 3X in OT; calm, silence, still. Heb. a voice of gentle silence. דְּמָמָה an onomatopoetic word (words mean nothing more than the sound it makes & thus not understood), is allied to our word (deaf &) dumb; barely perceptible sound, being almost silence; literally, "a sound of soft stillness." This was 'scintillatio Divinitatis', says Tertullian, a small sparkle of the Deity, a sweet expression of God’s mind. After the tremendous displays of the violence of nature (howling wind, earthquake, fire), suddenly all is silent, a calming occurs. Job 4:16 'There was a silence ('demamah'), a hush, THEN I heard a voice saying...'

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible: "The Jewish Targum is, 'the voice of those that praise God in silence.'

'small (H1851 'daq': 15X in OT; thin, small, fine, dwarfed, very little thing, something crushed down, resulting in being very thin or fine, as fine dust. The voice is reduced down to a barely detected whispering sound, like someone whispering in one's ear so low it cannot be understood.

Hearing God's voice can be an inner thought, or through the mind or an audible voice or only a voice that the person addressed can hear & others cannot. All these, as I understand Scripture, are addressed.

I have no objection to translators adding words to the text to add clarity. So long as that word 'came' in this instance is not interpreted as being some subjective inner thought. But seeing as you now agree the voice that came to Elijah in v13 was indeed an audible voice, my point is now moot.

As to the voice in v12, the "still small voice", I would say that too was an audible voice. Although the Hebrew word דְּמָמָ֥ה can mean silent, it can also mean a whisper (whispers are not silent).

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon
1. whisper, calm

NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
#1827.
דְּמָמָה
demamah (199a); from 1826a; a whisper:—​

However what makes the voice certain to be audible is the first part of v13 where is says "When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face...". The Hebrew word שָׁמַע, to hear, is the normal word for hearing audibly with your ears.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon
1. to hear, listen to, obey

a. (Qal)

1. to hear (perceive by ear)
2. to hear of or concerning
3. to hear (have power to hear)
4. to hear with attention or interest, listen to
5. to understand (language)
6. to hear (of judicial cases)
7. to listen, give heed 1a​

b. to consent, agree 1a
c. to grant request

1.to listen to, yield to
2.to obey, be obedient​

d. (Niphal)

1. to be heard (of voice or sound)
2. to be heard of
3. to be regarded, be obeyed​

e. (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon
f. (Hiphil)

1.to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound
2.to sound aloud (musical term)
3.to make proclamation, summon
4. to cause to be heard n m​

2. sound

NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
#8085.
שָׁמַע
shama (1033b); a prim. root; to hear​

Also the Hebrew word ק֖וֹל, voice, is also always associated with an audible sound, never an inner thought.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon
1. voice, sound, noise

a. voice
b. sound (of instrument)​

2. lightness, frivolity

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
#6963.
קוֹל
qol (876d); from an unused word; sound, voice:—​

You seem to believe that a voice HAS TO BE AUDIBLE in order to be valid as a voice. I respectfully disagree, though the majority of the time in Scripture it is audible, but not necessarily heard by all. The term 'the voice of the LORD came to...saying' is synonymous with the often used, 'The word of the LORD came to...saying.'

It is God speaking in both. Saul saw Jesus & was blinded, heard the audible voice of the Lord, but those people surrounding him heard the sound of a voice but could not understand it. It was to him only. (Acts 22:1-21) However, in vs 17, it states Paul fell into a trance & 'SAW Jesus saying to Him...' Here Paul was not hearing an audible voice but while in the trance or state of estacy, saw in his mind the picture of Jesus talking to him & was able thus to understand.

The same is also true for the Apostle Peter in Acts 10:10 & 11:5-- DRB And being hungry, he was desirous to taste somewhat. And as they were preparing, there came upon him an ecstasy of mind.

G1611 'ekstasis': used 7X in NT; a displacement of the mind, i.e. Bewilderment, 'ecstasy'. Properly, take out of regular position (standing) & bring into a state of ecstasy (rapture) – like a person "carried out" in trance-like amazement. This state of mind reaches far beyond the powers of ordinary perception & is a throwing of the mind out of its normal state.

In other words, God gave revelation to Saul & Peter, through an estacy of mind. God spoke to them through this displacement of mind out of its normal state & they SAW in their mind's altered state, the Lord speaking to them, although no audible voice was heard.

Ellicott's Commentary: " St. Luke characteristically uses, as in Acts 11:5; Acts 22:17, the technical term ekstasis (whence our English ecstasy) for the state which thus supervened. The state was one in which the normal action of the senses was suspended, like that of Balaam in Numbers 24:4, or that which St. Paul describes in 2Corinthians 12:3, "whether in the body or out of the body" he cannot tell, and, as such, it was, in this instance, made the channel for a revelation of the Divine Will conveyed in symbols which were adapted to the conditions out of which it rose.

Pulpit Commentary: A trance (ἔκστασις) expresses a state of transition from the ordinary state into a new or different state. Applied to a man, it denotes that state in which the external senses & the volition are suspended & all his impressions are derived FROM WITHIN (see Acts 11:5; Acts 22:17). It is also used to express great astonishment (Luke 5:26; Acts 3:10; Mark 5:42). In the LXX. of Gen 2:21 it is spoken of Adam's deep sleep & in Gen 27:33 of Isaac's exceeding trembling.

Cambridge Greek Testament: "He fell into a trance. The word ἔκστασις is used by the LXX. (Genesis 2:21) of the deep sleep sent upon Adam, and also (Genesis 15:12) of that which came upon Abraham, when it was revealed unto him that his seed should be captives in a strange land, before they entered on the possession of Canaan. In like manner here, the vision was disclosed mentally to St Peter..."

Robertson's Word Picture in the NT: "He fell into a trance (egeneto ep' auton ekstasis). More exactly, “An ecstasy came upon him,” in which trance he passed out of himself (ekstasis from existēmi) and from which one came to himself (Acts 12:11). Cf. also Acts 11:5; Acts 22:17. It is thus different from a vision (horama) as in Acts 10:3.

Alford's Commentary: "ἔκστασις] The distinction of this appearance from the ὅραμα (vision) above (though the usage is not always strictly observed) is, that in this case that which was seen was a revelation shewn to the eye of the beholder when rapt into a supernatural state, having, as is the case in a dream, no objective reality: whereas, in the other case, the thing seen actually happened, and was beheld by the person as an ordinary spectator, in the possession of his natural senses.

I will deal with your other points as I have time.

I agree God's voice may only be heard by the recipient and not others nearby, ie a voice speaking inside their head. But it is still a real voice, not a thought or a feeling. When Paul and Peter heard the Lord speaking to them the bible quotes the exact words the Lord said. That is not a thought. They even have real conversations with Him during their visions!

 

[Mathetes66]

Thanks, swordsman1, for getting back to my post! Good work on studying the Scriptures! Keep it up!

And you have a point on Elijah hearing the still small voice at the start of vs 13.

And the word for voice is translated just as much as 'sound' so when God walked in the garden, Adam & Eve heard the sound of Him walking in the garden, not His voice. Later He did call out to Adam in an audible voice.

So it is possible it was audible in vs 12 or it can mean silent as you said also & that could have been inward recognition as the other natural violent acts of nature state that God was in them but it doesn't say that about the still small voice. So I am not going to be dogmatic about this as it could be either in my understanding.

Swordsman1: I agree God's voice may only be heard by the recipient and not others nearby, ie a voice speaking inside their head. But it is still a real voice, not a thought or a feeling. When Paul and Peter heard the Lord speaking to them the bible quotes the exact words the Lord said. That is not a thought. They even have real conversations with Him during their visions!

Thanks for your thoughts here. I never said God speaking to people, whether audibly or not, was simply 'a' thought or some feeling. It is God speaking & yes they had real conversations. My next response to your next point talks about this very thing! Amazing!

Swordsman1: "The verses where Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice " is not proof that Jesus speaks to believers via thoughts. We all agree the "voice" is not a literal audible voice, but a metaphorical "voice". But nowhere in scripture is God's metaphorical voice ever referred to as thoughts or feelings. God metaphorical "voice" however is frequently used to describe God speaking through scripture: (listed 18 verses to support your premise that God ONLY speaks through the Scriptures yet ignoring those that do show it.")

"WE ALL AGREE the "voice" is not a literal audible voice, but a metaphorical "voice."

This my brother, is a statement of presumption. You cannot speak for all of us, only yourself. And I don't agree it is a metaphorical voice at all in the passage of John 10 & most biblical commentators don't either. Jesus being a door is metaphorical but the picture of a shepherd audibly & actually calling out to his sheep from the pen is not metaphorical. That actually happened every day in Palestine.

When Jesus speaks in a parable, He uses the illustration of a normal sheep herder, the shepherd of the sheep. At Jesus times, all the sheep would be put in a large pen together. When it came time to take them to pasture, each shepherd would call to his sheep AUDIBLY (not metaphorical) & 'his' sheep would hear that audible voice & would come forth out of the pen & follow him because they recognized his audible voice calling to them.

This was a perfectly understood picture. Then Jesus applies the spiritual truth--to His sheep--both Jew & Gentile. Just as the sheep hear a shepherd's voice, so Jesus' sheep will hear His voice because they recognize His voice. We are known to Him & He is known to us. He calls us to pasture & feed from His abundant provision. He leads us & guides us. How does He do that after His resurrection? He does it by means of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father & He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you & will be in you. I will not leave you ORPHANS; I will come to you.

And many of your examples of Scripture do NOT show a metaphorical voice. They are verses PULLED out of context. To make it brief, I will just look at the very first one, Psalm 103:20 in context.

Psalm 103:20,21 Bless the LORD, you His angels, who excel in strength, who do His word, heeding the voice of His word. Praise the LORD, all His heavenly hosts, you His servants who do His will.

H1697 'daw-baw' from dabar: speech, a word, custom, a word of command. Brown-Driver-Briggs: 'singular speech, discourse, saying, word, as the sum of that which is spoken.

First of all, you only quote PART of the verse, not all of it. Perhaps you may be copying a list from someone else or a website. Remember that Satan only quoted part of a verse with Jesus in the wilderness, twisting the meaning.

You conveniently LEFT OUT that this verse is talking about the angels in God's Presence, as well as the following verse. These are not men with their frailties & sins. They hear directly from the LORD in the spiritual realm & whatever He tells them, they immediately do it. It is not referring to the Scriptures here but God speaking directly to good angels in His Presence.
Moving on to your next point.

When I mentioned Acts 5:32 & Acts 15:28 as to how the Holy Spirit was recognized as a witness with all those things discussed, as well as all those there, this is what you said:

"It doesn't say. So we cannot make the presumption it was through an inner thought or feeling. Seeing as they were apostles a more likely explanation is that God spoke to them directly (Acts 22:14, Acts 9:4, Acts 10:13, Acts 13:2, Acts 18:9, Acts 22:18,21, Acts 23:11, etc). We, however, are not apostles."

So how does the Holy Spirit 'witness' so that we recognize it?

Rom 8:14-16 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, THROUGH WHOM we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...

Scripture does indicate that the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit & we recognize it. He also enables us to cry ABBA! I did not say it was some vague inner thought or feeling but through our spirit is the means by which the Holy Spirit bears witness, leads & empowers us & RENEWS US.

"You said: Notice it says the Spirit testifies "WITH our spirit", not "in our spirit". There are 2 witnesses that testify that we are children of God - our spirit and the Holy Spirit. (adoption proceedings required multiple witnesses to be "legal"). It is nothing to do with internal revelations."

It indeed has everything to do with internal WITNESS, not revelations. You keep throwing that 'red herring' in there. The Spirit testifies, the Spirit bears witness with our spirit. Our spirit is verifying that we are hearing from the Spirit BECAUSE He enables us to cry, ABBA! It is not some legal proceeding going on here--that is again the logical fallacy of a 'red herring.' This is a spiritual bearing witness, not a physical one. Our spirit is inward & immaterial as the Holy Spirit is immaterial. It is the means by which we have a RELATIONSHIP with God. Our spirit is now alive to having fellowship with the living God. That is spiritual & inward.

Eph 4:20-24 But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed YOU HAVE HEARD HIM & HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY HIM, as the truth is in Jesus; that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts & BE RENEWED IN THE SPIRIT OF YOUR MIND & that you put on the NEW MAN which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Paul teaches we can hear Christ & be taught of Him! How is this done? By being renewed in the SPIRIT of our minds & putting on the NEW MAN.

And the Spirit was bearing witness to every person in their spirit, not just the apostles that day in Jerusalem. The whole church was present, along with the elders & the apostles & Paul & his companions as well. All testified to those things after all the discussion was completed. All of them didn't hear a booming voice from the Spirit, bearing witness of all these things discussed, saying that I agree with these things. He bears witness in our inner man, the new creation. We are the temple of the living God, the dwelling place of God in the Spirit. The Triune God lives INSIDE US! He is alive & we are alive IN HIM. One cannot have a relationship without communication.

Again we see this addressed in the prophecy being fulfilled at Peter's preaching in Acts 2: and what Jesus said in John 6:45.

Acts 2:14-18 Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons & daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18Even on My menservants & maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days & they will prophesy.

It isn't ONLY to the apostles that the outpouring of the Spirit would occur! It would happen to young & old men, sons & daughters, even servants! And this would be happening IN THE LAST DAYS. We are still in the last days.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall be all taught of God.' Every man therefore that has heard & has learned of the Father, comes unto Me.

Is 32:14,15 The hill & the watchtower will become caves forever—the delight of wild donkeys & a pasture for flocks, until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high & the wilderness becomes a fruitful field & the fruitful field is counted as a forest.

Prov 1:20,23-26 Wisdom calls aloud...Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you. Because I have called & you refused, I have stretched out my hand & no one regarded, because you disdained all my counsel & would have none of my rebuke, I also will laugh at your calamity...

Isaiah 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him—the Spirit of wisdom & understanding, the Spirit of counsel & strength, the Spirit of knowledge & fear of the LORD.

Deut 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him & the children of Israel hearkened unto him &did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Eph 1:15-19 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus & your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM & REVELATION IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM,

18that the EYES OF YOUR HEARTS BEING ENLIGHTENED; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power...

Eph 3:17 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit IN THE INNER MAN...

Ellicott's Commentary: "To be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man--From the Father, as the source of all life & being, St. Paul passes on to the Spirit, "proceeding from the Father," as the giver of life to men. His prayer here, as in Eph 1:17, is for the gift of the Spirit, but under some difference of aspect.

There the prayer is for illumination, here for strength to grasp the mystery, to be rooted in love &be filled up to the fulness of God. Accordingly, there the inner man is represented only by the "eyes of the heart;" here (as in Rom 7:22; 2Cor 4:16) we hear of the "inner man" in his entirety, including all faculties--intellectual, emotional, moral--which make up his spiritual nature...Moreover, a greater closeness of communion is clearly indicated here."

2 Cor 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the INWARD MAN IS BEING RENEWED DAY BY DAY.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good & acceptable & perfect, will of God.

I will continue to address your points as I have time. Thanks for the good discussion.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So when we hear a sermon, we don't have to think about what was said, instead the Holy Spirit will listen for us and then give us a 'nudge' at the end to tell us if it was right or not?

I guess Paul was wrong in commending the Bereans for confirming his teaching by examining scripture. What he should have told them was to listen for the Holy Spirit's 'nudge' instead.

And all of us who disagree with charismatic teaching should have received such a nudge it was right but we chose to ignore it?

And during the centuries of non-charismatic teaching before the movement came on the scene a few decades ago, people should also have received a nudge that it was wrong, but chose to ignore it?

It is not an either or it is a both and.

Have you started with a blank page and studied the scripture for over 5 years with no other input?

Maybe you need to be baptised in the Spirit and then it will all make sense...

Which ever way, He promises to lead us into all truth so press into Him is the key and be receptive to His leading in all things (even what to read in scripture)

 

[swordsman1]

So it is possible it was audible in vs 12 or it can mean silent as you said also & that could have been inward recognition as the other natural violent acts of nature state that God was in them but it doesn't say that about the still small voice. So I am not going to be dogmatic about this as it could be either in my understanding.

Sorry to labor the point but I did not say Elijah's still small voice may have been silent. Only that the word דְּמָמָ֥ה may on occasion mean 'silent'. In this instance however I maintain that the word means an audible 'whisper' for the reasons I gave. Just thought I'd clear that up.

This my brother, is a statement of presumption. You cannot speak for all of us, only yourself. And I don't agree it is a metaphorical voice at all in the passage of John 10 & most biblical commentators don't either. Jesus being a door is metaphorical but the picture of a shepherd audibly & actually calling out to his sheep from the pen is not metaphorical. That actually happened every day in Palestine.

When Jesus speaks in a parable, He uses the illustration of a normal sheep herder, the shepherd of the sheep. At Jesus times, all the sheep would be put in a large pen together. When it came time to take them to pasture, each shepherd would call to his sheep AUDIBLY (not metaphorical) & 'his' sheep would hear that audible voice & would come forth out of the pen & follow him because they recognized his audible voice calling to them.

This was a perfectly understood picture. Then Jesus applies the spiritual truth--to His sheep--both Jew & Gentile. Just as the sheep hear a shepherd's voice, so Jesus' sheep will hear His voice because they recognize His voice. We are known to Him & He is known to us. He calls us to pasture & feed from His abundant provision. He leads us & guides us. How does He do that after His resurrection? He does it by means of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father & He will give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you & will be in you. I will not leave you ORPHANS; I will come to you.

The image of sheep hearing the Lord's voice in John 10 most certainly is metaphorical rather than literal. Scripture itself says so...

John 10:2-6 But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand....​

We are not literally sheep. Jesus is not a literal shepherd. And we do not hear a literal voice. Even those who use this verse to advocate God's voice being an inner sense agree it is not a literal voice they hear but rather some kind of intuition guiding them. Although in my view they have got the metaphor wrong.

And many of your examples of Scripture do NOT show a metaphorical voice. They are verses PULLED out of context. To make it brief, I will just look at the very first one, Psalm 103:20 in context.

Psalm 103:20,21 Bless the LORD, you His angels, who excel in strength, who do His word, heeding the voice of His word. Praise the LORD, all His heavenly hosts, you His servants who do His will.

H1697 'daw-baw' from dabar: speech, a word, custom, a word of command. Brown-Driver-Briggs: 'singular speech, discourse, saying, word, as the sum of that which is spoken.

First of all, you only quote PART of the verse, not all of it. Perhaps you may be copying a list from someone else or a website. Remember that Satan only quoted part of a verse with Jesus in the wilderness, twisting the meaning.

You conveniently LEFT OUT that this verse is talking about the angels in God's Presence, as well as the following verse. These are not men with their frailties & sins. They hear directly from the LORD in the spiritual realm & whatever He tells them, they immediately do it. It is not referring to the Scriptures here but God speaking directly to good angels in His Presence.
Moving on to your next point.

When I mentioned Acts 5:32 & Acts 15:28 as to how the Holy Spirit was recognized as a witness with all those things discussed, as well as all those there, this is what you said:

"It doesn't say. So we cannot make the presumption it was through an inner thought or feeling. Seeing as they were apostles a more likely explanation is that God spoke to them directly (Acts 22:14, Acts 9:4, Acts 10:13, Acts 13:2, Acts 18:9, Acts 22:18,21, Acts 23:11, etc). We, however, are not apostles."

So how does the Holy Spirit 'witness' so that we recognize it?

You are quite right to note that one of my examples was referring to angels and not men. Well spotted! Perhaps that one should not be on my list of examples of God's metaphorical voice referring to scripture, although it may still refer to scripture (angels still obey the written law don't they?). Even if you discount that one, you still have another 16 examples to refute before you can declare my argument invalid! Not only that but you would need to find some evidence that God's metaphorical voice may refer to thoughts and feelings.

Rom 8:14-16 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, THROUGH WHOM we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...

Scripture does indicate that the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit & we recognize it. He also enables us to cry ABBA! I did not say it was some vague inner thought or feeling but through our spirit is the means by which the Holy Spirit bears witness, leads & empowers us & RENEWS US.

"You said: Notice it says the Spirit testifies "WITH our spirit", not "in our spirit". There are 2 witnesses that testify that we are children of God - our spirit and the Holy Spirit. (adoption proceedings required multiple witnesses to be "legal"). It is nothing to do with internal revelations."

It indeed has everything to do with internal WITNESS, not revelations. You keep throwing that 'red herring' in there. The Spirit testifies, the Spirit bears witness with our spirit. Our spirit is verifying that we are hearing from the Spirit BECAUSE He enables us to cry, ABBA! It is not some legal proceeding going on here--that is again the logical fallacy of a 'red herring.' This is a spiritual bearing witness, not a physical one. Our spirit is inward & immaterial as the Holy Spirit is immaterial. It is the means by which we have a RELATIONSHIP with God. Our spirit is now alive to having fellowship with the living God. That is spiritual & inward.

The Spirit "bearing witness with our spirit" is not him internally bearing witness to our spirits as is commonly thought. He bears witness WITH our spirit, not TO it. ie He is a joint witness, along with our spirit, that we are children of God. He does not witness internally TO our spirit, but witnesses alongside our spirit ('with' our spirit). It is our spirit that cries "“Abba! Father!” to God (Rom 8:16) and it is also the indwelling Holy Spirit that cries, “Abba! Father!” to God (see Gal 4:6).

Here is an excerpt from the highly respected NICNT commentary on Romans.

The Letter to the Romans by Douglas J. Moo

The verb is ouuuapTUp&o, and the question is whether the ouv that forms the prefix carries its usual sense of accompaniment — "bear witness with" — or whether it has simply intensive force — "bears witness to" (BAGD note first-century-B.c. examples of the word with this meaning). The verb has this latter meaning in its only two other NT occurrences (see Rom. 2:15 and 9:1), and many scholars naturally prefer this meaning (e.g., H. Strathmann, TDNT IV, 508-9; Cranfield; Wilckens; Morris; and cf. REB). On the other hand, a papyrus document from the second century shows that the word was still used to mean "bear witness with" (MM), and this additional nuance makes excellent sense in a context where two "spirits" are prominent (Stalder, Werk des Geistes, p. 484; S-H; Murray). God's Spirit joins in bearing "joint" witness with our spirit; see Gal. 4:6, where the Holy Spirit is said to "cry, 'Abba, Father.'" It may even be that Paul wants to add certainty to the situation by adducing more than one witness (cf. Deut. 19:15 and the Roman law that required multiple witnesses for an adoption to be "legal" [cf. Bruce, Galatians, pp. 199-200]).​

Eph 4:20-24 But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed YOU HAVE HEARD HIM & HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY HIM, as the truth is in Jesus; that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts & BE RENEWED IN THE SPIRIT OF YOUR MIND & that you put on the NEW MAN which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Paul teaches we can hear Christ & be taught of Him! How is this done? By being renewed in the SPIRIT of our minds & putting on the NEW MAN.

And the Spirit was bearing witness to every person in their spirit, not just the apostles that day in Jerusalem. The whole church was present, along with the elders & the apostles & Paul & his companions as well. All testified to those things after all the discussion was completed. All of them didn't hear a booming voice from the Spirit, bearing witness of all these things discussed, saying that I agree with these things. He bears witness in our inner man, the new creation. We are the temple of the living God, the dwelling place of God in the Spirit. The Triune God lives INSIDE US! He is alive & we are alive IN HIM. One cannot have a relationship without communication.

Eph 4:21 is not saying that Jesus speaks and teaches us by some internal process. "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught BY him" is a mistranslation by the KJV. Only the King James versions and its derivatives translate Eph 4:21 in that way, and it should not be taken out of context from the previous verse. Other bible versions give a more accurately translation of these 2 verses. It does not say we hear Christ personally, nor does it say we are taught by him as the KJV erroneously makes it appear.

ESV "But that is not the way you learned Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, "

NIV "That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. "

NASB "But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus."

RSV "You did not so learn Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus."

NLT " But that isn’t what you learned about Christ. Since you have heard about Jesus and have learned the truth that comes from him,"​

Again we see this addressed in the prophecy being fulfilled at Peter's preaching in Acts 2: and what Jesus said in John 6:45.

Acts 2:14-18 Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons & daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18Even on My menservants & maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days & they will prophesy.

It isn't ONLY to the apostles that the outpouring of the Spirit would occur! It would happen to young & old men, sons & daughters, even servants! And this would be happening IN THE LAST DAYS. We are still in the last days.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall be all taught of God.' Every man therefore that has heard & has learned of the Father, comes unto Me.

Is 32:14,15 The hill & the watchtower will become caves forever—the delight of wild donkeys & a pasture for flocks, until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high & the wilderness becomes a fruitful field & the fruitful field is counted as a forest.

Prov 1:20,23-26 Wisdom calls aloud...Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you. Because I have called & you refused, I have stretched out my hand & no one regarded, because you disdained all my counsel & would have none of my rebuke, I also will laugh at your calamity...

Isaiah 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him—the Spirit of wisdom & understanding, the Spirit of counsel & strength, the Spirit of knowledge & fear of the LORD.

Deut 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him & the children of Israel hearkened unto him &did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Eph 1:15-19 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus & your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM & REVELATION IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM,

18that the EYES OF YOUR HEARTS BEING ENLIGHTENED; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power...

Eph 3:17 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit IN THE INNER MAN...

Ellicott's Commentary: "To be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man--From the Father, as the source of all life & being, St. Paul passes on to the Spirit, "proceeding from the Father," as the giver of life to men. His prayer here, as in Eph 1:17, is for the gift of the Spirit, but under some difference of aspect.

There the prayer is for illumination, here for strength to grasp the mystery, to be rooted in love &be filled up to the fulness of God. Accordingly, there the inner man is represented only by the "eyes of the heart;" here (as in Rom 7:22; 2Cor 4:16) we hear of the "inner man" in his entirety, including all faculties--intellectual, emotional, moral--which make up his spiritual nature...Moreover, a greater closeness of communion is clearly indicated here."

2 Cor 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the INWARD MAN IS BEING RENEWED DAY BY DAY.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good & acceptable & perfect, will of God.

I agree that the Holy Spirit is poured out on all God's people and we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But I do not agree that he speaks to us internally by thoughts, feelings or some other mystical means, and none of the verses you quotes say that. The reference to sons and daughters prophesying in the Last Days when Peter quotes Joel's prophecy is not proof that people can prophecy today if that is what you are saying. I can elaborate on that if you wish.

I will continue to address your points as I have time. Thanks for the good discussion.

Thank YOU.

 

[swordsman1]

Maybe you need to be baptised in the Spirit and then it will all make sense...

I have already been baptised in the Spirit, as all believers have been (1 Cor 12:13). But that is another discussion.

 

[Mathetes66]

Steven Beck: ...Believe it or not, two very important gifts is word of knowledge & word of wisdom & of course these two are definitely extra biblical."

Thanks for reminding me of these spiritual gifts. When I was involved in an international Christian ministry on a university campus, we had an all night prayer meeting. After praying all night, we took a break, before praying again. One of the women in the ministry wasn't there. She had an appointment to meet with two woman & share the gospel.

As we discussed things to pray about, someone mentioned Vicki & her appointment & we should pray about that. Suddenly, the Spirit spoke to me and said, "Rejoice, they have come to know Me."

At the time, I didn't recognize it as the spiritual gift of the 'word of knowledge.' But I knew in my spirit that the Holy Spirit was bearing witness that those two girls had just become Christians!

I didn't say anything at the time but about 40 minutes later, Vicki comes in all excited & said both women she had shared the gospel with, repented & trusted in Christ to save them. It was then I realized that the Spirit had given me that spiritual gift as He chose, in order that Christ would be glorified.

The Apostle Peter exercised that gift with Ananias & Sapphira, knowing inwardly their duplicity. I have noticed over the years that this gift is often exercised by those gifted as evangelists.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I have already been baptised in the Spirit, as all believers have been (1 Cor 12:13). But that is another discussion.

We are obviously light years apart on our understanding of how He works today.

I was born again at 13 and Baptised in the Spirit early 30's.

However I am unsure how you can be sure of anything while denying He confirms truth within you.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Friends I have come across this testimony.

It starts with comment on John 10 and the voice of the Shepherd.

I Am Week 5

The gentleman was an operative among the terrorists in the Middle East.

Please have a look and feed back about God's voice.

 

[Steven Beck]

Steven Beck: ...Believe it or not, two very important gifts is word of knowledge & word of wisdom & of course these two are definitely extra biblical."

Thanks for reminding me of these spiritual gifts. When I was involved in an international Christian ministry on a university campus, we had an all night prayer meeting. After praying all night, we took a break, before praying again. One of the women in the ministry wasn't there. She had an appointment to meet with two woman & share the gospel.

As we discussed things to pray about, someone mentioned Vicki & her appointment & we should pray about that. Suddenly, the Spirit spoke to me and said, "Rejoice, they have come to know Me."

At the time, I didn't recognize it as the spiritual gift of the 'word of knowledge.' But I knew in my spirit that the Holy Spirit was bearing witness that those two girls had just become Christians!

I didn't say anything at the time but about 40 minutes later, Vicki comes in all excited & said both women she had shared the gospel with, repented & trusted in Christ to save them. It was then I realized that the Spirit had given me that spiritual gift as He chose, in order that Christ would be glorified.

The Apostle Peter exercised that gift with Ananias & Sapphira, knowing inwardly their duplicity. I have noticed over the years that this gift is often exercised by those gifted as evangelists.

Extra biblical???

1Co 12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,

Looks biblical to me.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think what he means is (if you heard the testimony above) If God says "get in the car" you dont resist because there are no cars in the bible...

 

[Michael Garrett Andrews]

Friends I have come across this testimony.

It starts with comment on John 10 and the voice of the Shepherd.

I Am Week 5

The gentleman was an operative among the terrorists in the Middle East.

Please have a look and feed back about God's voice.

Nice video, thanks for sharing, I' m learning to hear God's voice myself !!