The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[RDKirk]

Hm, not sure if that'd stop me from attending a restaurant though. Kind of extreme.

Well, she'd spend time hugging everybody in the family. When we realized we were having to steel ourselves up for it, we just kind of started selecting other places.

 

[Jamdoc]

The only time I've ever even seen anyone hugging a waitress was one particular restaurant in Hawaii where it was the waitress doing the hugging. We thought it was kind of weird, and stopped going to that restaurant because of it.

Yeah I've never even heard of that.
about the most interaction I'd have with any waitress is might ask her for a recommendation on something for the food or a drink (and I have heard that some waitstaff don't like when customers do that even). They're working a job, so I've treated them as professionals.

 

[Sparagmos]

"Every" time? Where are you getting this from? Stop trying to be hyperbolic. I had a retired aged elderly woman give me a hug for making her happy as a client. I loved it, nothing pervy about it. She was very sweet after the few times meeting her. She was married, too.

I’m getting it from my own experience. I’ve dealt with men like that a lot in my life. I’m inviting you to put yourself in my shoes to see things from another perspective.

 

[Sparagmos]

The only time I've ever even seen anyone hugging a waitress was one particular restaurant in Hawaii where it was the waitress doing the hugging. We thought it was kind of weird, and stopped going to that restaurant because of it.

I should be clear, the hugging the waitress isn’t common. Other things, moreso. I worked at a hotel where lots of businessmen came through for conventions without their wives. I don’t think most men are sexual harassers at all, but the restaurant industry has the highest rate and is starkly different from an office or professional environment.

 

[Sparagmos]

By the way, I think some posting here are completely blowing my situation out of proportion. I have not hugged a co-worker whatsoever where I work. They'd have to reach out to me to do it.

Not sure how it escalated into me being some creepy perv. Seriously, man...pump the brakes..(not you bella).

I get what you mean, some prefer to keep their workplace co-workers and the outside separate, however...and this may be a regional or cultural thing.

In the places I've worked around here, co-workers do become involved in each other's personal lives. In fact, last year, one of the co-workers invited their other co-workers to her wedding. I'd hear of their shenanigans afterwards.

This is not uncommon in more smaller communities.

I was invited to a Halloween party at a co-workers home, and just about everyone there were employees of the company. lol Some invited their +1s friends to go (the ones from outside of work). Got to dance with an office lady, too. ;-)

One thing I have noticed though, once someone puts in their 2-week notice and leaves, you'll find out they aren't in touch with their co-workers anymore. I have a co-worker that must've added every co-worker besides management, to her FB friends list.

That's something I never do.

I apologize. I didn’t mean to characterize you that way. I’m projecting a bit, in the sense that I know that a lot of men don’t understand how it feels to be on the other side of situations.

 

[dzheremi]

Sometimes a guy who claims to be too ugly to attract any woman shows a picture of himself, and inevitably I will have seen uglier married men.

But they have to do something to compensate. Be rich. Be female-funny ("What do you see in him?" "He makes me laugh"). Be handy. Be kind and hard-working. Nowadays, women even like men with brains. I'm not saying they'd snare a 10 even then, but they'd find someone if they made some compensations.

Inevitably, incels make none of those compensations.

Very true. Maybe some young men underestimate how much having similar senses of humor can raise their profile in certain women's eyes, or even something as simple as doing little things around the house or when out and about that she wouldn't do or wouldn't think to do. My last girlfriend told me after the breakup that she thought it was really interesting that one time when we had gone to an arcade and they accidentally gave her the wrong prize for the tickets she won, I actually went back and asked if we could get the one she had wanted. It took all of maybe two minutes, but she said that she had never been with anyone before who would've bothered with something like that. I guess the other men in her life would've told her "oh well" or "it's just a stupid arcade prize, who cares", or something like that.

We still broke up, obviously (turns out an inflatable unicorn can't solve all your problems), but my point is that you never know what will stand out to a potential significant other as a sign that there's more to you than all the stuff that you think makes you ugly, unlovable, etc. I mean, at least let her decide that you're ugly and unlovable, but give her enough to think about in the process that it seems like a tough conclusion to come to!

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I should be clear, the hugging the waitress isn’t common. Other things, moreso. I worked at a hotel where lots of businessmen came through for conventions without their wives. I don’t think most men are sexual harassers at all, but the restaurant industry has the highest rate and is starkly different from an office or professional environment.

I haven't seen this happen at any restaurant...are we talking chain restaurants or a privately owned business or perhaps some backwater "hole-in-the-wall" place that people tend love going to?

Like I would imagine not seeing this happen say at a TGI Fridays or Chilis.

I have heard of cashiers of certain grocery stores having to deal with harasser types...not necessarily getting physical, but they'd tend to spend too much time with a certain cashier, so they'd have a "code" if a undesirable would come in...and they'd swap places while she went into the employee break room until he left. Of course, I think these types are more so vagrants if anything.

We have backwater bars here where the women that sling drinks sexualize themselves on social media saying, "I'm working here tonight! Pay me a visit!" *kissy-face/cleavage shot!" The local community board says, "Gee, their parents must be proud!"

But I hear police are always called out to those places due to the fights that break out.

 

[Sparagmos]

I haven't seen this happen at any restaurant...are we talking chain restaurants or a privately owned business or perhaps some backwater "hole-in-the-wall" place that people tend love going to?

Like I would imagine not seeing this happen say at a TGI Fridays or Chilis.

I have heard of cashiers of certain grocery stores having to deal with harasser types...not necessarily getting physical, but they'd tend to spend too much time with a certain cashier, so they'd have a "code" if a undesirable would come in...and they'd swap places while she went into the employee break room until he left. Of course, I think these types are more so vagrants if anything.

We have backwater bars here where the women that sling drinks sexualize themselves on social media saying, "I'm working here tonight! Pay me a visit!" *kissy-face/cleavage shot!" The local community board says, "Gee, their parents must be proud!"

But I hear police are always called out to those places due to the fights that break out.

I worked at a fine-dining steakhouse and a high end hotel restaurant. It was far worse at the hotel. Lots of men traveling without their wives, and hotel rooms right upstairs.

You wouldn’t see it as a customer, it is mostly verbal or happens in the back of the house.

Here is a good article with statistics and good explanations of the environment:

Sexual Harassment Is Pervasive in the Restaurant Industry. Here’s What Needs to Change

 

[MehGuy]

Sometimes a guy who claims to be too ugly to attract any woman shows a picture of himself, and inevitably I will have seen uglier married men.

To be clear I am talking about low value men who can still attract partners, but that these partners tend to be low value too. That it is hard for many to develop feelings (romantic or sexual) for low value partners even if the person is low value themselves.

But they have to do something to compensate.

Be rich.

Easier said than done. Probably the biggest help for an ugly man.. but out of reach for most. Especially if the incel is sub-par in intelligence. Smart enough to get out in the world but probably does not have the brightest socioeconomic prospects.

Be female-funny ("What do you see in him?" "He makes me laugh").

What is female-funny? Although this does remind me of that scene from Roger Rabbit.. lol.

Nowadays, women even like men with brains. I'm not saying they'd snare a 10 even then, but they'd find someone if they made some compensations.

I agree women like brains and I would even argue that women care less about looks compared to men. Given human neoteny it seems clear that there was and probably is more sexual pressure for women to be physically attractive compared to men.

There are plenty of ugly men who can get average or even above average women through compensation.. but with incels I assume we are speaking about the bottom 10% or even 5% of men. Being low IQ and ugly on top of it is going to take a heavy toll on a man's potential prospects. Even they can find women.. but they are presented with the problem I initially stated.

Inevitably, incels make none of those compensations.

How do you know? Besides, many better looking men also possess these same traits. Being kind and having a sense of humor and a hard worker (in the incel case probably often at a dead end minimum wage job) are not really novel.

I will say that I do not buy into the salacious view of incels I see being described in many feminist and conservative corners. They are probably just cheery picking the worst of the community and refuse to have a more complex and human look at them. They just want one dimensional misogynistic monsters. When in reality I'd wager most incels act nothing like they do online in real life (even the hateful ones). Humans are complicated creatures with contradicting desires. The same people who can output incredible hate can also output incredible love. Most incels probably behave normal in reality, and are hard to pick out.

I'll say the same for the extremely hateful and disgusting feminists I run into online. I'd bet many of them are actually nice to men in real life and keep a lot of their more hateful thoughts in the back burner. Like incels they are probably often full of crap and contradictory in their actual actions in a good way.

 

[Jamdoc]

I am a little bit disappointed with the idea that posters seem to be suggesting that women have a need to be physically attracted to their partners but men don't need to be.
There does need to be some physical attraction and that goes for both genders.
Now obviously people shouldn't feel entitled to hollywood actors or supermodels as their partners everyone's got flaws (even those actors and supermodels) but a person will find things attractive about that other person and overlook their flaws.

Nobody should be saying "just accept people who are totally unattractive to you"
that doesn't work out in anyone's favor.
if someone is "settling" for something that is totally unattractive to them, they're going to be constantly searching for a "better option" to come along, and it's a situation that is primed for unfaithfulness.
It's like "settling" for a job at McDonald's because you couldn't find a better job... you're not going to just be happy with what you got, you're going to continue a job hunt for a better job.
Marriage should never be like that.
So yes, it's essential that you find the person you're going to spend the rest of your life with is attractive TO YOU.
You have to be happy with them and not be on the lookout for better, and that won't happen without some attraction.

 

[MehGuy]

I am a little bit disappointed with the idea that posters seem to be suggesting that women have a need to be physically attracted to their partners but men don't need to be.

Has anyone posted such sentiments here? If they have let me know.. I will definitely have something to say to them.. Just from what I have seen.. no one is making that argument.

I myself made a comment somewhere in this thread about some hypocritical women arguing that women wanting tall men is due to evolution yet men wanting youthful and fertile women is somehow a cultural construct because society (men) hates women for some reason.. and wants to hurt them.. lol. Although I wasn't endorsing such a view and thus far I haven't seen anyone else do it here either.

Nobody should be saying "just accept people who are totally unattractive to you"
that doesn't work out in anyone's favor.
if someone is "settling" for something that is totally unattractive to them, they're going to be constantly searching for a "better option" to come along, and it's a situation that is primed for unfaithfulness.
It's like "settling" for a job at McDonald's because you couldn't find a better job... you're not going to just be happy with what you got, you're going to continue a job hunt for a better job.

Yeah but at the end of the day some people do have to work the unfavorable jobs.

Marriage should never be like that.

For some people it's either pretend or have nothing.

So yes, it's essential that you find the person you're going to spend the rest of your life with is attractive TO YOU.

Sadly statistically some will have to settle if they want to get married. While beauty is in the eye of the beholder (and as someone who personally studies fetish attractions very well knows).. on average there are huge swaths of the population who find similar things attractive and are competing for a finite resource.

You have to be happy with them and not be on the lookout for better, and that won't happen without some attraction.

Part of the brutal reality of being an animal. Heck.. this is true for pretty much all couples (good looking or not). One reason I fear being married is the reality that I may find it impossible to maintain feelings for my wife as she gets older.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

To be clear I am talking about low value men who can still attract partners, but that these partners tend to be low value too. That it is hard for many to develop feelings (romantic or sexual) for low value partners even if the person is low value themselves.





Easier said than done. Probably the biggest help for an ugly man.. but out of reach for most. Especially if the incel is sub-par in intelligence. Smart enough to get out in the world but probably does not have the brightest socioeconomic prospects.



What is female-funny? Although this does remind me of that scene from Roger Rabbit.. lol.

I agree women like brains and I would even argue that women care less about looks compared to men. Given human neoteny it seems clear that there was and probably is more sexual pressure for women to be physically attractive compared to men.

There are plenty of ugly men who can get average or even above average women through compensation.. but with incels I assume we are speaking about the bottom 10% or even 5% of men. Being low IQ and ugly on top of it is going to take a heavy toll on a man's potential prospects. Even they can find women.. but they are presented with the problem I initially stated.



How do you know? Besides, many better looking men also possess these same traits. Being kind and having a sense of humor and a hard worker (in the incel case probably often at a dead end minimum wage job) are not really novel.

I will say that I do not buy into the salacious view of incels I see being described in many feminist and conservative corners. They are probably just cheery picking the worst of the community and refuse to have a more complex and human look at them. They just want one dimensional misogynistic monsters. When in reality I'd wager most incels act nothing like they do online in real life (even the hateful ones). Humans are complicated creatures with contradicting desires. The same people who can output incredible hate can also output incredible love. Most incels probably behave normal in reality, and are hard to pick out.

I'll say the same for the extremely hateful and disgusting feminists I run into online. I'd bet many of them are actually nice to men in real life and keep a lot of their more hateful thoughts in the back burner. Like incels they are probably often full of crap and contradictory in their actual actions in a good way.

You know, these recent posts reminds me of a man in his mid-50s, who is married to a woman in her mid-30s....for the life of me, if you saw them together, you wouldn't think they are together.

She's an advanced, skilled belly dancer, don't meant to get objective, but she turns heads when she walks in a room. Very petite and fit...him, he doesn't even take pride in dressing himself when he goes out...this is probably you wouldn't think they are together... he's ALWAYS wearing a ball cap, baggy jeans and a T-shirt. I could almost see long hair sticking out of his nose. Nice guy though, but that's about it.

He's a photographer/graphic designer. They met as he's big on photographing models (man, I better jump on that gig, right? LOL)

Though you could get envious, I think to myself, "Well, if he can land someone like her, I may have a chance!" lol

He's not in a lucrative job, he told me he just got plain lucky and for the life of him, he cannot figure out how he's attracted to him with the way he looks.

I am guessing she's probably demi-sexual....which isn't looks focused, but more personality or the relationship was based on some kind of close bonding.
He said he gets a chuckle when better looking men in suits approach her, knowing full well she's all his.

 

[MehGuy]

You know, these recent posts reminds me of a man in his mid-50s, who is married to a woman in her mid-30s....for the life of me, if you saw them together, you wouldn't think they are together.

She's an advanced, skilled belly dancer, don't meant to get objective, but she turns heads when she walks in a room. Very petite and fit...him, he doesn't even take pride in dressing himself when he goes out...this is probably you wouldn't think they are together... he's ALWAYS wearing a ball cap, baggy jeans and a T-shirt. I could almost see long hair sticking out of his nose. Nice guy though, but that's about it.

He's a photographer/graphic designer. They met as he's big on photographing models (man, I better jump on that gig, right? LOL)

Though you could get envious, I think to myself, "Well, if he can land someone like her, I may have a chance!" lol

He's not in a lucrative job, he told me he just got plain lucky and for the life of him, he cannot figure out how he's attracted to him with the way he looks.

I am guessing she's probably demi-sexual....which isn't looks focused, but more personality or the relationship was based on some kind of close bonding.
He said he gets a chuckle when better looking men in suits approach her, knowing full well she's all his.

Yeah.. as someone in the fetish community.. I do have an open mind about the possibilist of pairings. I know women (some quite good looking) who genuinely want a man in a wheel chair compared to a man who isn't. Sometimes you see these "inspirational" videos on Youtube of a good looking women/men being with a physically disabled person. The reality is.. the able bodied person probably has some fetish going on. This inspiration is misguided. It isn't a story of a person liking someone despite their flaws.. they are attracted to their flaws.

Not to say this person is bad for having a strange attraction, nor should the disabled person be offended by it.. just.. there is most likely a logical reason behind it.. and shouldn't be used as fuel for a low status man/woman to think someday a hot chick or hot guy will just pick him/her for some reason. For most it will never happen. While I often roll my eyes at incel/single men hysteria society has about them.. I do think it's not psychological healthy to be deluded about such things. Not talking about anyone here of course. And I do like how you came up with an explanation (demi-sexual). Could very well be a factor.

 

[Jamdoc]

Has anyone posted such sentiments here? If they have let me know.. I will definitely have something to say to them.. Just from what I have seen.. no one is making that argument.

It seemed like that was where you were going with the idea that "incels can get sex it's just not with who they want" idea.

I myself made a comment somewhere in this thread about some hypocritical women arguing that women wanting tall men is due to evolution yet men wanting youthful and fertile women is somehow a cultural construct because society (men) hates women for some reason.. and wants to hurt them.. lol. Although I wasn't endorsing such a view and thus far I haven't seen anyone else do it here either.

Well sorry for misunderstanding but it seemed like we were all in agreement that a woman shouldn't have to marry someone she doesn't love but it seemed like you were backing an idea that men should.

Yeah but at the end of the day some people do have to work the unfavorable jobs.

and they're not happy with them and constantly searching for better. That works for jobs, it does not work for marriage.

For some people it's either pretend or have nothing.

Sadly statistically some will have to settle if they want to get married. While beauty is in the eye of the beholder (and as someone who personally studies fetish attractions very well knows).. on average there are huge swaths of the population who find similar things attractive and are competing for a finite resource.

Part of the brutal reality of being an animal. Heck.. this is true for pretty much all couples (good looking or not). One reason I fear being married is the reality that I may find it impossible to maintain feelings for my wife as she gets older.

and having nothing is better than coveting other people while married to someone you don't love, because being single is not sin, coveting and adultery are.

 

[dzheremi]

Maybe this is just me being a sap, but I think every one of my past girlfriends has been way out of my league in the looks department, so I don't go walk around doing this calculus that some people seem to think human relationships consist of. Oh, she's an 8 (according to...?), but I'm a 4, so what am I gonna do about this scale that actually is a social construct?!

Please. That's not life. That's probably the incel's idea of what a relationship should be (after all, they all deserve 10s for being such perfect gentlemen), but most people really are content with someone who loves them and supports them genuinely and wholeheartedly. It's not that looks don't matter, because of course they do, but the way you look at your person should change as your relationship with them matures.

Nothing could ever make anyone more beautiful than when they are loved and give love freely. This is why all the incel/MGTOW sturm und drang is so insane and self-defeating: their goal is ostensibly to find love and companionship, but their not built on seeing others as even being capable of being beautiful (not just aesthetically, but also as people, in the way that they exist in the world), loving, whole human beings with whom they want to enter into consensual, mutually nourishing, healthy relationships -- a desire which grows out of the inherent magnetism of really seeing and being with another person. No, how could it be about anything like that when women are just Stacys and Beckys or whatever, and men are just Chads and Betas?

It's inherently dehumanizing to everyone involved. It's really kind of the antithesis of love. It's weirdly possessive, but possessive about people it openly disdains. "Love is not self-seeking", our master St. Paul the Apostle told the Corinthians. Was that observation meant for them only?

 

[MehGuy]

It seemed like that was where you were going with the idea that "incels can get sex it's just not with who they want" idea.

No.. believe me.. I wouldn't endorse such an idea.

Well sorry for misunderstanding but it seemed like we were all in agreement that a woman shouldn't have to marry someone she doesn't love but it seemed like you were backing an idea that men should.

No. My thoughts go for both sexes. Just as some men will have to settle for an ugly and overweight woman.. some women will have to settle for a poor man. Both needs not met.. and the relationship will largely be built off of phoniness and denying one's true feelings.

Millions of couples do this everyday. But it's debatable and up to the person if this is better than nothing.

and they're not happy with them and constantly searching for better. That works for jobs, it does not work for marriage.

Does it? Some people only have the skills to work low level jobs.. they do it for decades.. most are probably not happy about it.. but it's their lot in life.

and having nothing is better than coveting other people while married to someone you don't love, because being single is not sin, coveting and adultery are.

As a non-Christian I do not think about this stuff too often.. but I guess. Although coveting is a pretty human thing to do.. adultery requires actual action.. while coveting is more an involuntary thought. Maybe in the Christian context it only becomes a sin after a certain point.. IDK.

 

[MehGuy]

Some people view myself having a fault when I air my honest concerns about the possibility of falling out of love with a potential marriage partner as we age. They view this as a relationship "flaw" I have. When I actually view it as a quality. A man who's willing to be honest and frank about his emotions. I want the same from a woman.

These are not comforting thoughts.. but most people who are with each other are in some degree settling. If you or your partner were born or found themselves in a higher status you'd probably never have been with each other.

Reminds me of a Family Guy scene where Peter becomes taller and tells Lois that he's going to use his new quality to find a better prospect. Some might view it as somewhat distasteful.. but I like honest takes like these.

Although this isn't to say it isn't noble nor practical to a degree to learn how to be satisfied with what you've settled with. There is a fine line to be drawn. One can be realistic and honest without going too far.

 

[dzheremi]

Why is settling seen as a bad thing? It doesn't have to mean you date or marry whoever's around out of fear of dying alone or something. One definition of being settled is to adopt a more secure and steady way of life, in the sense of "settling down" somewhere or with someone. Is that bad?

 

[Jamdoc]

No.. believe me.. I wouldn't endorse such an idea.



No. My thoughts go for both sexes. Just as some men will have to settle for an ugly and overweight woman.. some women will have to settle for a poor man. Both needs not met.. and the relationship will largely be built off of phoniness and denying one's true feelings.

Millions of couples do this everyday. But it's debatable and up to the person if this is better than nothing.



Does it? Some people only have the skills to work low level jobs.. they do it for decades.. most are probably not happy about it.. but it's their lot in life.



As a non-Christian I do not think about this stuff too often.. but I guess. Although coveting is a pretty human thing to do.. adultery requires actual action.. while coveting is more an involuntary thought. Maybe in the Christian context it only becomes a sin after a certain point.. IDK.

Well this is a Christian community so yeah, you should take that into account there. That yes, here it'll be seen better to be single, than to covet other women who are not your wife.
Wanting to have a wife while being single isn't a sin (unless you're desiring a woman who is married to someone else)
but if you're married and wanting other women then it is sin.
Jesus said this in regards to the matter:

Matthew 5:27-28

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

A Christian's basis for what is right and wrong is objective, God decides what is right and wrong and we just have to live by those objective moral standards.
Atheists tend to take morality as relative, so they will decide it's "okay" to covet other women while married to one that he doesn't love, apparently not realizing the pain that causes.. for the woman, feeling inadequate that her husband doesn't love her, for the man, obviously not happy with his wife if he's looking elsewhere.
There is harm in that, even if often times people don't see it.
It is true then, as an observation, better to be single, than to be married to a woman you don't love, and insult and hurt her by coveting other women.
Being single, well, you might be unhappy, but at least you're not dragging someone else down with you.

 

[MehGuy]

Atheists tend to take morality as relative, so they will decide it's "okay" to covet other women while married to one that he doesn't love, apparently not realizing the pain that causes.. for the woman, feeling inadequate that her husband doesn't love her, for the man, obviously not happy with his wife if he's looking elsewhere.

Yeah, but coveting can easily happen with couples who originally paired up together because of mutual attraction. People age, circumstances change. The once beautiful and youthful wife is now old and overweight.. the once athletic man who had a decent job is now laid off and having difficulty finding work and has developed a beer belly.

Coveting does not just manifest with couples who cannot muster up attraction for one another. Plenty of couples who do love each other also struggle with the occasional desire for another. These couples are probably not prone to coveting to the same degree as couples who do not have any attraction for one another, but the sin of coveting is still very much present.

Desiring something you do not possess is an unavoidable human feeling. While it can cause hurt and insecurity, coveting is just a part of life. One needs to at least make some peace with the limitations of the human mind.

As a man who is short I do not like the idea of my partner lusting after another man because of his tall height and admiring a part of masculinity I will never have myself, but it is an unavoidable thought. Just as I am sure my partner as we age would not be too thrilled with the reality that I will occasionally desire women younger than herself and covet a part of femininity she no longer has. While one should not let these feelings overtake them, I think it is cruel and psychologically unhealthy to label these feelings as sins. I'd want my partner to feel comfortable sharing these thoughts with me just as I want to feel comfortable sharing my thoughts with her. A relationship based on honesty and not on a phony façade.

There is harm in that, even if often times people don't see it.
It is true then, as an observation, better to be single, than to be married to a woman you don't love, and insult and hurt her by coveting other women.
Being single, well, you might be unhappy, but at least you're not dragging someone else down with you.

No, I see the psychological harm it can cause. Especially regarding couples who have no attraction for one another. Perhaps in a Christian context it is better to be single, but as I have stated above these sins are probably unavoidable regardless. Some people will have to make tough decisions. Either sleep in a cold bed alone, or sleep in a warm bed with someone they are not attracted too but at the very least they may be able to fulfill some of their biological urges in a more rudimentary sense.