The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[RDKirk]

No, I see the psychological harm it can cause. Especially regarding couples who have no attraction for one another. Perhaps in a Christian context it is better to be single, but as I have stated above these sins are probably unavoidable regardless. Some people will have to make tough decisions. Either sleep in a cold bed alone, or sleep in a warm bed with someone they are not attracted too but at the very least they may be able to fulfill some of their biological urges in a more rudimentary sense.

Human beings are not controlled by nature. Human beings like what we want to like, and we can change what we want to like any time we really want to change. There is a multi-billion dollar advertising industry based on that characteristic.

One pastor said a while ago, "Any husband can make his wife his standard of beauty. If his wife is thin, he can make 'thin' his standard of beauty. If his wife is thick, he can make "thick" his standard of beauty. If his wife used to be thin, he can make 'used to be thin' his standard of beauty. But when he makes his wife his standard of beauty, then all other women become substandard."

My wife is fat and old, but she is more kind to me than I can imagine any other woman being, she's good company, she makes few demands of me, and she knows the signs of stroke. I'd be a fool to lust after younger women.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yeah, but coveting can easily happen with couples who originally paired up together because of mutual attraction. People age, circumstances change. The once beautiful and youthful wife is now old and overweight.. the once athletic man who had a decent job is now laid off and having difficulty finding work and has developed a beer belly.

Coveting does not just manifest with couples who cannot muster up attraction for one another. Plenty of couples who do love each other also struggle with the occasional desire for another. These couples are probably not prone to coveting to the same degree as couples who do not have any attraction for one another, but the sin of coveting is still very much present.

Desiring something you do not possess is an unavoidable human feeling. While it can cause hurt and insecurity, coveting is just a part of life. One needs to at least make some peace with the limitations of the human mind.

As a man who is short I do not like the idea of my partner lusting after another man because of his tall height and admiring a part of masculinity I will never have myself, but it is an unavoidable thought. Just as I am sure my partner as we age would not be too thrilled with the reality that I will occasionally desire women younger than herself and covet a part of femininity she no longer has. While one should not let these feelings overtake them, I think it is cruel and psychologically unhealthy to label these feelings as sins. I'd want my partner to feel comfortable sharing these thoughts with me just as I want to feel comfortable sharing my thoughts with her. A relationship based on honesty and not on a phony façade.



No, I see the psychological harm it can cause. Especially regarding couples who have no attraction for one another. Perhaps in a Christian context it is better to be single, but as I have stated above these sins are probably unavoidable regardless. Some people will have to make tough decisions. Either sleep in a cold bed alone, or sleep in a warm bed with someone they are not attracted too but at the very least they may be able to fulfill some of their biological urges in a more rudimentary sense.

Do you see how this just made a woman an object rather than valuing her as a person? Just seeing her as an means to an end of fulfilling a biological need?

I could never do that.

Of course perhaps one of my failings as a Christian is that I do not see the physical act of masturbation to be sin. There is no scripture to back masturbation as a sin (the inappropriate contentography and lust connected to it, yes, but not the physical act itself)
so I'd rather people "blow off steam" doing that, to relieve a biological urge, than to use another person for that and objectify them and hurt them just to deal with that urge.
Maybe I'm wrong on that, and Lord forgive me if I am..
but it cannot be more advisable to just use a woman's body like a sex toy while not even caring about her as a person.

 

[MehGuy]

Human beings are not controlled by nature. Human beings like what we want to like, and we can change what we want to like any time we really want to change. There is a multi-billion dollar advertising industry based on that characteristic.

A multi-billion dollar industry is doing what? I do see more fat women on the cover of beauty magazines. Most men mock this. Feminism isn't actually imposing their will on anyone. Most men still and are embarrassed to be with overweight women.

One pastor said a while ago, "Any husband can make his wife his standard of beauty. If his wife is thin, he can make 'thin' his standard of beauty. If his wife is thick, he can make "thick" his standard of beauty. If his wife used to be thin, he can make 'used to be thin' his standard of beauty. But when he makes his wife his standard of beauty, then all other women become substandard."

Just curious.. does this apply to women finding short and weak men attractive? I hope you're not promoting the idea that men are socially malleable to finding any woman attractive.. but for women it's mostly biological. That's just pure feminism at this point.

Thick and thin? I'd bet both preferences still want an hour glass shape. Beauty standards can change over time, but they're on a tight biological leash. Men regardless still want a thin waist.

Madonna might still dress and act like a teenager.. but most men do not want her. When she metoo'd that one guy at an award show by making out with him on stage.. he still showed visible disgust.. despite facing tremendous pressure to deny otherwise. He was sexually assaulted.. but he was more worried about not offending his abuser who is way past her prime, yet society seems to want to shove the message that men are the only entitled sex for some reason.

My wife is fat and old, but she is more kind to me than I can imagine any other woman being, she's good company, she makes few demands of me, and she knows the signs of stroke. I'd be a fool to lust after younger women.

Sure, I'm not arguing that some couples still love each other into advanced ages. Jesse Ventura still seems to love his wife despite them both being 60+ I believe. It certainly does happen, although I'd argue a large majority of people are not that lucky.

 

[MehGuy]

Do you see how this just made a woman an object rather than valuing her as a person? Just seeing her as an means to an end of fulfilling a biological need?

Well that's what animals do.. we objectify each other. Despite some people wanting to make this a female thing.. men are objectified all the time too.. even if it's not always purely physical.

I could never do that.

Of course perhaps one of my failings as a Christian is that I do not see the physical act of masturbation to be sin. There is no scripture to back masturbation as a sin (the inappropriate contentography and lust connected to it, yes, but not the physical act itself)
so I'd rather people "blow off steam" doing that, to relieve a biological urge, than to use another person for that and objectify them and hurt them just to deal with that urge.
Maybe I'm wrong on that, and Lord forgive me if I am..
but it cannot be more advisable to just use a woman's body like a sex toy while not even caring about her as a person.

As someone who can only feel and express love in an s&m sense and personally find "vanilla" relationships bizarre and hard to understand.. perhaps I am missing something deeper. I'll just say from my studies of evolutionary psychology we do look for and are in competition for certain traits. Traits that have survival benefits. Women seek protection, and men want someone fertile and one who elicits being protected. So you see women tending to highly place value on things like height, build and intelligence.. and men youthfulness and beauty (often just neotenic traits).

It might not be feel good.. but yeah dating is often a meat market.. where people inspect each other.. and compete for the best specimens.

I'm sick of this garbage of people pretending it's not.. and often for whatever reason often implying it happens only to females.

 

[MehGuy]

One hilarious thing about the body positive movement.. despite the media caving into the stupid and hypocritical demands of feminists.. many of them still complain that the overweight models shown on magazine covers often still have an hourglass shape or at least framed that way with editing.. and that not all overweight women have large breasts. That even this.. is still the patriarchy oppressing women.

I remember one woman at work asking some of us guys what we liked more.. thin or curvy women? The men said.. hey both.. they're both fine. While I would have the same answer.. I know what women mean by "curvy".. it's just fat women. So I said thin.. this women then spent the next few weeks trying to humiliate me for being honest with her. It was pretty clear she was full of insecurity.. that yeah.. these magazines.. might be showing women of all sizes.. but most women, like men deep down know this is a pile of garbage.

What's sad is that I wouldn't have been totally surprised if I was called into HR for this. Despite not prompting the question and just giving my honest answer.

 

[Jamdoc]

Somehow things are getting misrepresented here, I said that physical attraction is an important part, I'm just also saying that it needs to be a part of a whole package that you love, because physical beauty is going to fade.
ideally, by then you've loved each other long enough that it's no longer that important.

 

[MehGuy]

Somehow things are getting misrepresented here, I said that physical attraction is an important part, I'm just also saying that it needs to be a part of a whole package that you love, because physical beauty is going to fade.
ideally, by then you've loved each other long enough that it's no longer that important.

What is the whole package? I see the psychological within the physical.

 

[Jamdoc]

What is the whole package? I see the psychological within the physical.

the whole person, personality, faults and all.

 

[MehGuy]

the whole person, personality, faults and all.

All I really see potentially being left is a friendship. Perhaps this might be enough for most during their golden years, I'd just say let's be honest with what is happening. An older couple might still want to be with each other, but the connection most likely devolved into a mere friendship. At best... most couples are probably withered out of even that by then.

 

[RDKirk]

A multi-billion dollar industry is doing what? I do see more fat women on the cover of beauty magazines. Most men mock this. Feminism isn't actually imposing their will on anyone. Most men still and are embarrassed to be with overweight women.

Just curious.. does this apply to women finding short and weak men attractive? I hope you're not promoting the idea that men are socially malleable to finding any woman attractive.. but for women it's mostly biological. That's just pure feminism at this point.

You seem to be locked on weight at the moment, but in fact the advertising industry works successfully to change people's "likes" across the board of consumer attitudes, from diets to shoes to movies to shampoos, et cetera.

With regard to women's sizes, yes, the media has changed men's attitudes...more than once in just the last 50 years. Heck, people seem to have completely forgotten that prior to the 80s, black women were slender.

 

[MehGuy]

You seem to be locked on weight at the moment, but in fact the advertising industry works successfully to change people's "likes" across the board of consumer attitudes, from diets to shoes to movies to shampoos, et cetera.

Locked in? Weight is just one thing that really comes to my mind regarding this topic. The media is also trying to convince men that 40 year old women are just as feminine and attractive as a 20 year old.. but even this doesn't quite leap out at me in the same way as going to a supermarket and seeing an overweight women striking ridiculous "sexy" poses on magazine does.. lol.

While undeservedly congratulating themselves on smashing the patriarchy.. whatever that means. I still don't see men fighting each other for obese women.

With regard to women's sizes, yes, the media has changed men's attitudes...more than once in just the last 50 years. Heck, people seem to have completely forgotten that prior to the 80s, black women were slender.

I don't know why you edited out the part of my post that already responded to this.

Body image can shift over time, but it has biological limits. You're for instance not going to see the preference for the hour glass shape disappear. Or at the very least not a thin waist (thinking of anorexic models). Someone like Tess holiday was never seen as legitimately attractive to the mainstream man. Despite feminists trying to push this and call men bad for not liking them while lecturing us about not being entitled to a certain women.. it's doomed to fail. They've done studies on blind men who have never had the gift of sight, and they still prefer the hour glass shape.

 

[MehGuy]

Although as far as black women being portrayed as more slender in the past.. I find interesting.. this change probably have more to do with black people having more control of how they are portrayed in the media.

There is a study that black women have slower metabolisms compared to white women and consequently lose less weight compared to white women who follow the same diet regimen. Indicating that African men (western African men.. eastern African women can be quite naturally thin) have an evolutionarily history of selecting women who are more curvy.. although again.. I want to stress that they still value a slim waist the same as men of other races. At least on average.. these things can be on a bell curve.. some men like chubby women.. but the vast majority do not. The same as some women having less of a stress for a man's height.. but overall height is still a big deal for women.

 

[RDKirk]

Although as far as black women being portrayed as more slender in the past.. I find interesting.. this change probably have more to do with black people having more control of how they are portrayed in the media.

There is a study that black women have slower metabolisms compared to white women and consequently lose less weight compared to white women who follow the same diet regimen. Indicating that African men (western African men.. eastern African women can be quite naturally thin) have an evolutionarily history of selecting women who are more curvy.. although again.. I want to stress that they still value a slim waist the same as men of other races. At least on average.. these things can be on a bell curve.. some men like chubby women.. but the vast majority do not. The same as some women having less of a stress for a man's height.. but overall height is still a big deal for women.

I was a black man in the past.

I darned well know what black women looked like back then.

 

[bèlla]

Only 8% of women have an hourglass shape. It’s extremely rare. You need a 12-17 inch difference between your bust, waist, and hips and it must be in both (bust and hips). The majority aren’t built that way. That’s why corsets are making a comeback. They can fake it. But an hourglass in the same will look like Barbie.

I agree with @MehGuy. Most men aren’t attracted to overweight or obese women. Especially if she isn’t willing to address the problem. I know some who’ve taken them on and helped them get healthy. But they were committed to change and needed assistance.

While I agree it’s important to feel good about yourself. I can’t embrace a philosophy that promotes poor health. Telling me it’s okay to be 50 or 100 pounds overweight is crazy. Nor would I want someone who concurs. Medical problems notwithstanding.

 

[MehGuy]

I was a black man in the past.

I darned well know what black women looked like back then.

What did they look like? Because what I've seen is black women tend to pack more fat, even the overweight one's carry it a little better compared to the overweight white women I've seen.

Perhaps black women dieting more rigorously to attain a more white look.. I don't know.. just what I've noticed they tend to naturally carry weight a little differently on average.

 

[RDKirk]

What did they look like? Because what I've seen is black women tend to pack more fat, even the overweight one's carry it a little better compared to the overweight white women I've seen.

Perhaps black women dieting more rigorously to attain a more white look.. I don't know.. just what I've noticed they tend to naturally carry weight a little differently on average.

Google images for "african american 70s" or "african american 60s"

Or Google images for "african american 60s protests" and "african american 70s protests" for more street scenes.

You can also Google images for "historically black beaches"

You won't see a bunch of "thicc" women. We used to be a slender people...weight only caught us when we got old, which the primary way of identifying that a black women was in her 50s and 60s.

The fact that body type has changed so rapidly is a clue that food quality and environment have changed tremendously in just a few decades.

Another clue of the change to food quality and environment is that girls are starting menses an average of 6 years earlier than they did 50 years ago.

 

[MehGuy]

Google images for "african american 70s" or "african american 60s"

Or Google images for "african american 60s protests" and "african american 70s protests" for more street scenes.

You can also Google images for "historically black beaches"

You won't see a bunch of "thicc" women. We used to be a slender people...weight only caught us when we got old, which the primary way of identifying that a black women was in her 50s and 60s.

The fact that body type has changed so rapidly is a clue that food quality and environment have changed tremendously in just a few decades.

Another clue of the change to food quality and environment is that girls are starting menses an average of 6 years earlier than they did 50 years ago.

What are you arguing? That fat distribution is on average the same between black women and white women?

I do notice black women appearing less 'thicc' in the past.. but I wonder if that's just an attempt to look more "white". While prone to a more curvy body.. you can probably block it from developing if you follow a more strict diet. The black women I've seen, thinner and overweight.. carry weight differently. I don't see how culture is responsible for this. White women have suffered from increased food availability as well. Yet they don't seem to look as "thicc" on average.. just dumpy. While portrayals of thicc African women have a racist history, I don't think it was the racists simply making things up out of thin air.. they noticed different fat distribution patterns and characterized it to the extreme.

East Asians are a lot smaller and less curvy on average compared than white women. They're a pretty hyper neotenic people. Variations exist.. nothing to be ashamed of. Like I said.. east African women tend to be pretty thin. Even more so than many European women.

 

[RDKirk]

What are you arguing? That fat distribution is on average the same between black women and white women?

I do notice black women appearing less 'thicc' in the past.. but I wonder if that's just an attempt to look more "white".

No. We were not trying to look white in the 60s and 70s--quite the opposite.

While prone to a more curvy body.. you can probably block it from developing if you follow a more strict diet.

No, we were not on strict diets.

 

[MehGuy]

No. We were not trying to look white in the 60s and 70s--quite the opposite.

No, we were not on strict diets.

You do not notice any difference between fat distribution between black and white women on average?

You don't find it strange that while women tend to be more overweight on average compared to men.. the difference between black men and black women is the largest?

African American women have a harder time losing weight | Reuters

 

[dzheremi]

Huh...this thread sure took a turn.

Also, as single people (those of us in this thread that are, anyway), is the best way of addressing these topics to bring up what most men aren't attracted to? Cos I think my biggest problem as a single guy is that most women aren't attracted to me, not that I'm surrounded by a bunch of degenerate fatties who live in fantasy land.

I don't know what the age distribution is like in this thread, but I think most people who are entering middle age or older and are still single/have been single for a while probably know full well why they're still single. In fact, this talk about how others are messing up might be another way of avoiding dealing with our own uncomfortable realities, saying things like "Most men don't like _____" (so it's women's fault if they insist on doing/being ____ after they already know we don't like it), rather than looking at ourselves in the mirror and really thinking about what we're bringing to the table, and what we can do to better our chances/put our best selves out there.