The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[ThisIsMe123]

Maybe we need Christian cuddle parties.

Spooning at its best.lol

 

[bèlla]

Spooning at its best.lol

I wouldn't do it. But there's definitely a market.

 

[MehGuy]

I think many incels are liars who distort the truth about their realities. This "involuntarily celibate" nonsense is just a smokescreen they employ because they are too cowardly to air their true concerns. The real issue being that they can only attract homely women and the sad reality that they are unable to sexually and romantically be fulfilled with them.

Let's be real here, many people with horrible personalities attract partners all the time. Human psychology is not black and white. People who have been abused, or abusive people themselves can find people with horrible personalities attractive. Plenty of jerks are in relationships.

I actually do find these deeper issues incels face worth having a social dialog about. While a problem that can never be solved.. I do find it to be healthier to have honest discussion and to set aside the lies and distortions and let genuine problems and feelings flow.

Incels are not angry and sad because they cannot get sex and romance.. they are angry and sad because they can only attract partners who do not give them meaningful sex and romance.

Involuntarily celibates are a myth.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

It wasn't 'a woman'. It was your co-worker. There's a protocol for that environment.

ETA:

Just because you work with someone doesn't mean you're friends.
Just because you have a need doesn't mean they'll meet it or want to.

Your personal struggles aren't your co-workers concern unless they want to get involved. They're familiar strangers. They must make a noticeable effort to develop a connection beyond the workplace. That means quality time outside of it.

By the way, I think some posting here are completely blowing my situation out of proportion. I have not hugged a co-worker whatsoever where I work. They'd have to reach out to me to do it.

Not sure how it escalated into me being some creepy perv. Seriously, man...pump the brakes..(not you bella).

I get what you mean, some prefer to keep their workplace co-workers and the outside separate, however...and this may be a regional or cultural thing.

In the places I've worked around here, co-workers do become involved in each other's personal lives. In fact, last year, one of the co-workers invited their other co-workers to her wedding. I'd hear of their shenanigans afterwards.

This is not uncommon in more smaller communities.

I was invited to a Halloween party at a co-workers home, and just about everyone there were employees of the company. lol Some invited their +1s friends to go (the ones from outside of work). Got to dance with an office lady, too. ;-)

One thing I have noticed though, once someone puts in their 2-week notice and leaves, you'll find out they aren't in touch with their co-workers anymore. I have a co-worker that must've added every co-worker besides management, to her FB friends list.

That's something I never do.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

. Because the desire is one-way. He essentially wants to use her to satisfy his desire for affection. Her lack of desire isn’t a factor to him.

That's just stating the obvious.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I’m really sad to hear about that revulsion to hugging men. It sounds horrible. Imagine, if you will, that the 57 year old woman you’re not attracted to is attracted to you, and wants to hug you every time she sees you. It doesn’t feel good.

"Every" time? Where are you getting this from? Stop trying to be hyperbolic. I had a retired aged elderly woman give me a hug for making her happy as a client. I loved it, nothing pervy about it. She was very sweet after the few times meeting her. She was married, too.

 

[bèlla]

I get what you mean, some prefer to keep their workplace co-workers and the outside separate, however...and this may be a regional or cultural thing.

It's not a real bond. That's why they lose touch when someone leaves. The connection is situational.

This is the third forum I've participated in plus the chat site. I've met and spoken to a lot of people on the phone. But when I left I didn't keep in touch with most of them. Three have the longest tenure post exodus. Including my partner. That isn't a lot when you consider my interactions. I bring very few to my world. And I'm not alone.

 

[MehGuy]

Not sure how it escalated into me being some creepy perv. Seriously, man...pump the brakes..(not you bella).

I hope you were not talking about me. My intentions were not to white knight but instead to simply speak my mind why some women may find it uncomfortable to hug a man. These desires alone do not make a man creepy.. just human.

When talking about issues like this and incels in general (not calling you one) it is best not to come from any sort of moral supremacy. The truth is that many women who look down on incel behavior are very capable of acting the same given the same life circumstance. It's not like toxic behavior and thinking patterns are unknown in the female gender.. lol. Not meant to excuse, but to look at things through the right context and mindset.

Hard to truly judge people when we are all given different trials and tests. Not to mention different brain hardwiring..

 

[ThisIsMe123]

It's not a real bond. That's why they lose touch when someone leaves. The connection is situational.

This is the third forum I've participated in plus the chat site. I've met and spoken to a lot of people on the phone. But when I left I didn't keep in touch with most of them. Three have the longest tenure post exodus. Including my partner. That isn't a lot when you consider my interactions. I bring very few to my world. And I'm not alone.

Hm, I have no interest taking conversations to the phone from here from any message board. Actually never had done that, don't see the reason to. Of course, it's a message board ....so...anonymity is sacred.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I hope you were not talking about me. My intentions were not to white knight but instead to simply speak my mind why some women may find it uncomfortable to hug a man. These desires alone do not make a man creepy.. just human.

When talking about issues like this and incels in general (not calling you one) it is best not to come from any sort of moral supremacy. The truth is that many women who look down on incel behavior are very capable of acting the same given the same life circumstance. It's not like toxic behavior and thinking patterns are unknown in the female gender.. lol. Not meant to excuse, but to look at things through the right context and mindset.

Hard to truly judge people when we are all given different trials and tests.

Not you, it was someone else, Meh. Yeah, I feel like I'm being judged....somehow the conversation turned from this to anecdotal situations where dirty old men are tipping waitresses for hugs and affection on a Saturday night at Road House or something.

 

[RDKirk]

The service industry is really bad. They’re tipping you and so not going along with it costs you tips and can get you fired. I was always a very assertive woman and when the touching was definitively inappropriate, handled it swiftly. It’s the subtle stuff that’s not worth the effort, the hand just a little too low on the back, the slightly sexual comments. The customer is always right and he’ll just deny and be offended and make the rest of your shift miserable.

The only time I've ever even seen anyone hugging a waitress was one particular restaurant in Hawaii where it was the waitress doing the hugging. We thought it was kind of weird, and stopped going to that restaurant because of it.

 

[Jamdoc]

I’m really sad to hear about that revulsion to hugging men. It sounds horrible. Imagine, if you will, that the 57 year old woman you’re not attracted to is attracted to you, and wants to hug you every time she sees you. It doesn’t feel good.

well that would be a major problem because she's related to me in the first place so we obviously can't be talking about my aunt specifically.

Obviously if we're talking an actual sexual attraction that makes it uncomfortable but that's not even what I was talking about.

So it seems like there's some gross distortion of what I do. I don't go around hugging every female acquaintance I know either. But if a female acquaintance, like say a member of my church, and she's just physically affectionate, calls men "hun" and "sweetie" (but she's happily married so it's not a sexual thing) initiates a hug when I might have went for a handshake first because I don't know her that well.. I'm okay with it. It's not something I'd initiate myself, but since she initiated it I'm accepting of it, and I'm not uncomfortable. Even if she's a "big" woman and I don't find her appealing at all.. it's okay, she's being friendly, if she goes for a kiss on the cheek.. that's pushing the boundary of where I'm comfortable with it and certainly not something I'd initiate or even invite, but if she did it I wouldn't really resist it although I'd find it a little weird, but I'd accept it, I probably would not reciprocate and hope that tells her that this is a boundary. If she went to kiss me on the lips.. nope.. okay affection showing is over I'm breaking out, sorry this isn't cool with me. I'm not going to be violent about it but I will turn my head and pull away from the hug, and at most I will just say "no thank you". I'm not going to be rude about it, but I am making clear that they went too far.

Now a man doing the same thing (okay maybe not calling people "hun" or "sweetie" cause that makes it extra weird), I go for a handshake and he extends an arm to hug.. I don't know him that well he's a member of my church but I haven't spent a lot of time around him so I haven't in my mind gotten to the level where I can overcome the repulsion to get that close to him, the handshake is fine and I'm comfortable with it, but hug? No.. I will not reciprocate, so, he might just pat my shoulder, okay that's fine, but if he went and forced the hug? It would be very awkward. If he went to kiss me on the cheek, okay, that's way too far I'm pulling away and resisting.
If he went for a kiss on the lips?
Okay at this point it might just result at taking a swing at his face instead, it will definitely result in at least shoving him away, probably even with some aggression to it. While this has not happened in a church setting for me this has happened and while I didn't hit him, cause he was kinda sorta a friend, at least friend of friends. it was very uncomfortable and he forced the hug and tried to kiss me. I shoved him away to make clear that wasn't welcome, and I did have my fists balled up if he tried to push it. Thankfully he apologized and it deescalated.

now let's change up the relationships. First a woman who is a friend of mine, known her for quite some time, and we've hugged before and she's kissed my cheek. I see her I will probably open up my arms to invite the hug. I am still leaving it up to her to actually initiate, but I'm inviting because yes I do want to hug her, I do not go to kiss her cheek but she initiates kissing my cheek so I kiss hers back. Outside of the initial invitation to hug, I have left her in control of how much affection is shown up to the points where I'm comfortable. Because I'm comfortable I reciprocate to tell her "this is okay for you to do". Now she goes to kiss my lips.. um... a little weird but if she's not married or related to me... I don't resist much beyond keeping my lips closed, a peck is pushing it but she is a good friend I spend a lot of time around her, I'm not going to make this awkward even if this is really the end of the road for where I'm comfortable, and this is not something that should be done normally, and I was accepting of it this time... I don't really know how to gently non verbally tell her "don't make this a regular occurrence, but okay if you really needed it this time". This has gone 2 ways for me in the past. for one, it was just the one peck because she hadn't seen me in awhile and missed me. I was okay with that she didn't make it a regular thing and I didn't try to make it regular, but this particular friend I do regularly kiss cheeks so I'm actually comfortable with initiating there. I can count the number of female friends that I'd initiate the hug with on both hands I think, and initiate kissing on the cheek? I think 2.
The second way.. she went for a peck.. and I was kind of feeling awkward about it, but let it happen.. then she went for another one... okay, that's it, I'm backing out, I guess she was attracted to me and that kind of put distance between us as friends that didn't exist before. So yeah, I get what you're talking about but it wasn't what I was referring to, and there's still a difference between how I'll interact with a woman vs a man, and I do still have boundaries, no I'm not looking to just jump into bed with any woman if she lets me. Yes I am a bit more permissive on the boundaries but I still have them, and they can still be violated.

Now ... close male friend, and I'm talking I've been friends with this dude since we were 10 years old, He's the guy who actually got me to go to VBS with him and got me to finally get the Gospel presented to me in a way that I actually understood it and accepted it. He's basically my brother. It's been a few years since I've seen him because of moving but if I do see him again, I do hug him. It still involves patting on the back, it still obeys the man hug "rules". Now he wouldn't do this, but if he went for a kiss on the cheek I'd still pull away, if he went for a kiss on the lips I'd still violently shove him away from me. The level of relationship is I trust this man more than anyone short of Jesus Christ, but the physical boundaries for affection still only barely budged from handshake to hug.

Where with women I'm hesitant but accepting of a hug even from an acquaintance I have no interest in, and only start getting awkward and not reciprocating when it goes beyond a hug, and if I'm a closer friend, it gets to where she actually has to make an overt sexual move before I get uncomfortable.

If there is sexual attraction from them and I'm unreciprocating of it, then yeah, I guess that'll actually put more strict boundaries up.

I guess you basically see all men as being sexually attracted to you, but that's not always the case.
and again, I don't initiate even a hug except for my closest female friends and even then it's been long enough since I've seen some of them that I wouldn't presume I'd just invite and let them make the move to accept invitation or not.

 

[RDKirk]

I think many incels are liars who distort the truth about their realities. This "involuntarily celibate" nonsense is just a smokescreen they employ because they are too cowardly to air their true concerns. The real issue being that they can only attract homely women and the sad reality that they are unable to sexually and romantically be fulfilled with them.

Let's be real here, many people with horrible personalities attract partners all the time. Human psychology is not black and white. People who have been abused, or abusive people themselves can find people with horrible personalities attractive. Plenty of jerks are in relationships.

I actually do find these deeper issues incels face worth having a social dialog about. While a problem that can never be solved.. I do find it to be healthier to have honest discussion and to set aside the lies and distortions and let genuine problems and feelings flow.

Incels are not angry and sad because they cannot get sex and romance.. they are angry and sad because they can only attract partners who do not give them meaningful sex and romance.

Involuntarily celibates are a myth.

I tend to agree overall, but will quibble with your "meaningful" sex and romance. I think it would be better stated as "idyllic" sex and romance. I'm sure the less-than-perfect women they can attract would be as hearty as possible with the sex and romance, but the incels are holding out for a 10.

 

[MehGuy]

I tend to agree overall, but will quibble with your "meaningful" sex and romance. I think it would be better stated as "idyllic" sex and romance. I'm sure the less-than-perfect women they can attract would be as hearty as possible with the sex and romance, but the incels are holding out for a 10.

I am sure there are incels in the community who think like that but I think the larger majority are simply frustrated that they cannot even attract women who are on the average looks range. Men who can only fish for women who are at the bottom of the barrel. When you get below a certain sexual attractive range the issues of developing romance and sexual attraction become real problems.

 

[bèlla]

Hm, I have no interest taking conversations to the phone from here from any message board. Actually never had done that, don't see the reason to. Of course, it's a message board ....so...anonymity is sacred.

I don't do it anymore. I limit it to business associates. People I've engaged with in paid programs and services. I know who I'm talking to. We'll get together at events and go to dinner or for drinks. There's no anonymity in those circles.

I made a decision I wouldn't meet anyone for personal reasons from the Internet earlier this year. Not even for dating. It's not worth the headache or vetting.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

The only time I've ever even seen anyone hugging a waitress was one particular restaurant in Hawaii where it was the waitress doing the hugging. We thought it was kind of weird, and stopped going to that restaurant because of it.

Wait, what? Was she hugging long time patrons that she knew, or just hugging every single patron that walked into the building, even total strangers?

 

[RDKirk]

Wait, what? Was she hugging long time patrons that she knew, or just hugging every single patron that walked into the building, even total strangers?

Well, she was a great waitress, so we (and I'm sure other people) tended to seek out her tables. When she picked up on those who were "her" customers...that made them huggable.

 

[dzheremi]

This thread is making me glad I'm not naturally a hugger. Heck, it was only a few years ago that I was finally comfortable enough with hugging my brother to do so voluntarily. And not for 'homophobic' reasons or anything, but because he made a big comical to-do about it to embarrass me. Yelling "I'm your brother! Huggggg meeeee!" in a restaurant is a guaranteed way to get me to not hug you. Hard to believe he's an older brother sometimes.

Anyway, I can't keep up with this complicated taxonomy of when and who it's okay to hug, so I just assume nobody wants to hug. I think we're all a bit happier or least more relieved that way.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Well, she was a great waitress, so we (and I'm sure other people) tended to seek out her tables. When she picked up on those who were "her" customers...that made them huggable.

Hm, not sure if that'd stop me from attending a restaurant though. Kind of extreme.

 

[RDKirk]

I am sure there are incels in the community who think like that but I think the larger majority are simply frustrated that they cannot even attract women who are on the average looks range. Men who can only fish for women who are at the bottom of the barrel. When you get below a certain sexual attractive range the issues of developing romance and sexual attraction become real problems.

Sometimes a guy who claims to be too ugly to attract any woman shows a picture of himself, and inevitably I will have seen uglier married men.

But they have to do something to compensate. Be rich. Be female-funny ("What do you see in him?" "He makes me laugh"). Be handy. Be kind and hard-working. Nowadays, women even like men with brains. I'm not saying they'd snare a 10 even then, but they'd find someone if they made some compensations.

Inevitably, incels make none of those compensations.