The Universalist Story is Not a Realistic Story (Annihilationism vs. Universalism)

[ClementofA]

Perhaps many of us have not suffered the types of severe injustice which have been frequently suffered by God's people throughout history, and continue to be around the world today. This may make it more difficult for us to appreciate the value of final justice. Yes, in this life, like Stephen, we are called to pray for our enemies and seek their salvation. But this is not in conflict with desiring justice after we are in Heaven on those who have finally rejected God's grace.

Desiring fair & proper justice for the wicked is one thing. Desiring their repentance, forgiveness & salvation is a higher more Christlike thing. But wanting to see them suffer before being annihilated is just pure sadism.

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[FredVB]

Desiring fair & proper justice for the wicked is one thing. Desiring their repentance, forgiveness & salvation is a higher more Christlike thing. But wanting to see them suffer before being annihilated is just pure sadism.

Sadism is not what is involved in what Christ said the wicked unredeemed would see after this life. There is justice that is required in Yahweh's perfect goodness, and is not withheld, for those apart from Christ they will bear it.

There are certainly some bad things that are much worse than other bad things, which we see. Yahweh sees this, and some things are said to be abominable. So it can be said there is more penalty for those things. Yet any lesser sin is still an offense to God, with the holiness of God. Any of such will have one suffering in hell. But what is hell? We can't say it is known, from imagery used to show it is undesirable misery for always. I don't speak of it meaning it is the torment of always actually burning in flames as is imagined by some certain people. But any sin for which there will be penalty borne, which there is for us without being in Christ who was willing to bear it all for us, will have lasting misery for us forever, as it would never be paid off without Christ. We have nothing of value to pay it off, as Christ had. Atonement still is really about ending sin which would go on, and providing for restoration to relationship with Yahweh that there should be, that God invested in that opportunity for us.

Death which comes to all has separation from this world. That is what constitutes death. The dead will still suffer. Those not with belief of salvation, in Christ, do not receive life, they remain suffering, as the dead, separated from this world, suffering what they still experience where they go. The dead suffer.

Christ meant that with what he said shown in Luke 16. Regardless of what others say about it, he would say these things only with such things being true.

“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ "

Those perishing, or going to destruction, are taken from this world where we are, forever.

Here where we are now the only dead seen are inanimate dead. But there where they go afterward the dead can be animate, they will still be experiencing what is appointed for them.

It is ultimately as Christ told his followers shown in Matthew 25:46.
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The everlasting punishment is with suffering. The redeemed don't have to face that, with being in Christ, who bore the justice for them on him.

There is the description starting in Revelation 20:10.
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And then there are the further things shown in Revelation 20:12-15.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

All will suffer with the one called the beast in Revelation, and the false prophet, this will be for day and night forever and ever. Such duration corresponds with the promise of everlasting life to the redeemed in the bliss with Yahweh and with Christ prepared for them.

 

[he-man]

Sadism is not what is involved in what Christ said the wicked unredeemed would see after this life. There is justice that is required in Yahweh's perfect goodness, and is not withheld, for those apart from Christ they will bear it.

There are certainly some bad things that are much worse than other bad things, which we see. Yahweh sees this, and some things are said to be abominable. So it can be said there is more penalty for those things. Yet any lesser sin is still an offense to God, with the holiness of God. Any of such will have one suffering in hell. But what is hell? We can't say it is known, from imagery used to show it is undesirable misery for always. I don't speak of it meaning it is the torment of always actually burning in flames as is imagined by some certain people. But any sin for which there will be penalty borne, which there is for us without being in Christ who was willing to bear it all for us, will have lasting misery for us forever, as it would never be paid off without Christ. We have nothing of value to pay it off, as Christ had. Atonement still is really about ending sin which would go on, and providing for restoration to relationship with Yahweh that there should be, that God invested in that opportunity for us.

Death which comes to all has separation from this world. That is what constitutes death. The dead will still suffer. Those not with belief of salvation, in Christ, do not receive life, they remain suffering, as the dead, separated from this world, suffering what they still experience where they go. The dead suffer.

Christ meant that with what he said shown in Luke 16. Regardless of what others say about it, he would say these things only with such things being true.

“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ "

Those perishing, or going to destruction, are taken from this world where we are, forever.

Here where we are now the only dead seen are inanimate dead. But there where they go afterward the dead can be animate, they will still be experiencing what is appointed for them.

It is ultimately as Christ told his followers shown in Matthew 25:46.
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The everlasting punishment is with suffering. The redeemed don't have to face that, with being in Christ, who bore the justice for them on him.

There is the description starting in Revelation 20:10.
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And then there are the further things shown in Revelation 20:12-15.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

All will suffer with the one called the beast in Revelation, and the false prophet, this will be for day and night forever and ever. Such duration corresponds with the promise of everlasting life to the redeemed in the bliss with Yahweh and with Christ prepared for them.

There is no physical suffering only the knowledge of never seeing God which is the penalty of refusing to acknowledge Him. Why people want to impose torture as a penalty is beyond my comprehension. That is not to say some will not die without being struck by cancer or some other malady unbearable. Those are not under the protection of the Holy Spirit and will go into unconditional perdition eternally. Pray that you are not among them.

 

[William Tanksley Jr]

Man can kill - as in slay - put to death the body but not slay the soul. Why do you think that Scripture uses then a word that does not mean one has to die - as in =destroy/ able to destroy - the soul and body?

You're alluding to Matt 10:28, which in full says: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

The word "destroy" in English normally implies killing when speaking of a person; only in figurative speech can it carry a less destructive meaning. The people who translated this passage have chosen to thus render the Greek word. And the Greek word is no less strong; its primary meaning in every lexicon is "to violently destroy," and when used of a person is often translated "to kill", as when the Pharisees sought to kill Jesus, or when Herod sent soldiers to kill Jesus.

The only alternative meaning would be to lose; but aside from appealing to the experience of translators, anyone can see that makes this verse into "fear him who can lose both soul and body in hell." Such a rendering is nonsense, of course; there is nothing to fear in one who has the power to lose something, nor is there a such thing as having the power to lose. (And yes, to lose something means to not know where it is. It does not mean to cause something to suffer loss; that's a different Greek word.)

The Greek word cannot possibly mean "mar", and does not mean that in any appearance in the Bible or any literature listed in the BDAG or LSJ. There is a different word, /phthora/ (corrupt, ruin, destroy) whose range of meanings does include merely marring something. Additionally, in this verse this destruction is being explained by Christ as being worse than having one's body killed. In fact, the parallelism suggests that this is worse than killing for both the body and for the soul.

Jesus adds later in the chapter (Matt 10:39) that He's talking about people who are losing their lives for Him; He will save their lives. Conversely, people who seek after and find their own lives (trusting in their own efforts to save them by caving in to persecutors who threaten to kill), Jesus says they will lose their lives.

The wicked do not come out of hell as a huge group except to be judged at the great white throne. These people being trodden as ashes are those dying the first death and going to hell.

You're responding to my discussion of Malachi 4:1-3 here, and you're responding by claiming that this passage describes the wicked "dying the first death and going to hell." My main question would be, why on earth would you think that? What about this text makes anyone think "oh, this is about some people dying." Let's take a look at the passage, then.

1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts."

This is "the day that is coming", and "the day when I [the LORD] act." The Day itself is "burning like an oven," and "will set them ablaze." You claim this is merely when some wicked people die the first death. But this is the same day on which "the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings," and "you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes."

This is about the Day of the Lord, and it depicts the judgment of the wicked en masse as being like stalks of dry straw packed in a field with a huge blaze burning in it. Nor does it say they'll be banished into another place to burn; it says they'll be reduced to ashes, and the same blaze that set them on fire becomes apparent as the Sun of Righteousness with healing, and those healed tread on the ashes of the wicked (i.e. they're still in the same place!).

Psalm 37 is also about those who will die the first death - evildoers -that are still alive before the new earth comes.

That is nothing like what Psalm 37 says. It says that it's about the wicked who fret and worry the righteous back when David wrote it. It says it's about the ones who bother us now (if you accept that the Psalms can be applied to us now). That's what it _says_ it's about. In fact it seems to be about all the wicked in every age. On what basis do you say it's NOT about what it claims to be, but is instead about some other wicked people who Asaph/David/we never met?

 

[William Tanksley Jr]

It is ultimately as Christ told his followers shown in Matthew 25:46.
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The everlasting punishment is with suffering. The redeemed don't have to face that, with being in Christ, who bore the justice for them on him.

Your claim is that "the everlasting punishment is with suffering", but the passage says nothing of that. In fact what it says is that the punishment is the opposite of "life."

 

[ClementofA]

Christ meant that with what he said shown in Luke 16. Regardless of what others say about it, he would say these things only with such things being true.

“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ "

Those perishing, or going to destruction, are taken from this world where we are, forever.

The duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

So does this story do more harm than good for the endless tormenting god position, even if taken literally?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

They get out of "hell" (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:11-15, if not sooner.

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,

"Son
Lit., child.

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)."

Luke 16:25 Commentaries: "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.


Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

---------------


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Der Alte]

. . .
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever." . . .

Why do you continue to ignore my post where I show conclusively from the NT that aion means eternity and aionios means eternally? See my post #29 this thread. Here is an example of the Greek word ὑπερεβολὴν/huperbolen being repeated for emphasis in the same way aionios is repeated in the phrase "eis ton aionios ton aionios." "for ever and ever."

* A. T. Robertson 2 Co 4:17
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2 Corinthians 4:17
Literally, “the for the moment (old adverb parautika, here only in N.T.) lightness (old word, in N.T. only here and Mat_11:30).”
More and more exceedingly (kath' huperbolēn eis huperbolēn). Like piling Pelion on Ossa, “according to excess unto excess.” See note on 1Co_12:31.
Eternal weight of glory (aiōnion baros doxēs). Careful balancing of words in contrast (affliction vs. glory, lightness vs. weight, for the moment vs. eternal).
* Vincent Word Studies
A far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (καθ' ὑπερεβολὴν εἰς ὑπερβολὴν αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης)
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light, weight; affliction, glory.
.​

 

[Mark Corbett]

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
destroy info
The devils wanted to know if He had come to destroy them. This same word destroy is used as to how the One is to be feared that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. The devils will not be consumed -but tormented. The word destroy - means - torment.
to torment for ever and ever - as to the devils

Vinsight4u, when you say, "The devils wanted to know if He had come to destroy them", I believe you are likely referring to this verse:

NIV Mark 1:24 "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are-- the Holy One of God!"

BGT Mark 1:24 λέγων· τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, Ἰησοῦ Ναζαρηνέ; ἦλθες ἀπολέσαι ἡμᾶς; οἶδά σε τίς εἶ, ὁ ἅγιος τοῦ θεοῦ.

You are correct to note that the same word translated "destroy" in Mark 1:24 is also translated "destroy" in Matthew 10:28:

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

BGT Matthew 10:28 Καὶ μὴ φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ.

I think that based on this you are arguing that in Matthew 10:28, "destroy" must mean to torment. While I agree that both Mark 1:24 and Matthew 10:28 use the same word (apollumi, "destroy"), I do not agree with your conclusion. Here are my reasons:

1. While the word apollumi, like most words, has a range of meaning, the meaning "to torment" is not a normal meaning for apollumi. On the other hand, the meaning "to kill" or "to cause to perish", with the normal every day meaning of "kill/cause to perish" is a very common and well attested meaning for apollumi. Apollumi is used to mean "to kill" several times in Matthew (see Matthew 2:13, Matthew 12:14)

2. You assume that apollumi must have precisely the same meaning in Matthew 10:28 and Mark 1:24. This simply is not correct. However, I happen to think that it may indeed have the same meaning.

3. I believe it is likely that in BOTH Matthew 10:28 and Mark 1:24, apollumi means "destroy" with the basic meaning of "kill a living being so that the being is not longer able to function, think, fell, or know anything". I believe the demons were afraid Jesus would do that to them.

4. Although you do not come out and state it, your argument seems to imply that passages like Matthew 10:28 and John 3:16 (which both use apollumi) are not to be interpreted literally in a simple way. You seem to think that words like "destroy" and "perish" should be interpreted to mean "be tormented forever". You base this, I think, on Revelation 20:10. Now, I agree that both Revelation 20:10 and Matthew 10:28 cannot be interpreted literally (non-symbolically, non-metaphorically). However, I believe it is FAR more likely that Revelation 20:10 is the part which is using symbolic/metaphoric language. This is because the whole book of Revelation consists of highly symbolic visions and apocalyptic imagery which is NOT meant to be interpreted literally. I explain this in much more depth in a blog post here:

What is the Second Death? Part 4, Blood

and also here:

What is the Second Death? Part 1, Symbols and Meanings

 

[ClementofA]

Here where we are now the only dead seen are inanimate dead. But there where they go afterward the dead can be animate, they will still be experiencing what is appointed for them.

It is ultimately as Christ told his followers shown in Matthew 25:46.
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The everlasting punishment is with suffering. The redeemed don't have to face that, with being in Christ, who bore the justice for them on him.

Some alternate translations have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

"2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

From Here to Eternity: How Long is Forever?

The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

The fire wasn't eternal & neither is the "eternal fire" or punishment in Mt.25:41,46.

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, earlier in the same gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

That includes the murderous Pharisees, Judas Iscariot & all other Jews. And since God is no respecter of person, the Gentiles will also be saved, as the Scriptures reveal.

Matt 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

There is the description starting in Revelation 20:10.
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

And then there are the further things shown in Revelation 20:12-15.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

All will suffer with the one called the beast in Revelation, and the false prophet, this will be for day and night forever and ever. Such duration corresponds with the promise of everlasting life to the redeemed in the bliss with Yahweh and with Christ prepared for them.

Compare:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

-----------------------------


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Der Alte]

..."In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."...

Yes, but,

• Clement Exhortation to the Heathen Chap IX
O the prodigious folly of being ashamed of the Lord! He offers freedom, you flee into bondage; He bestows salvation, you sink down into destruction; He confers everlasting life, you wait for punishment, and prefer the fire which the Lord “has prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Chap X
Why do they flee to this fatal brand, with which they shall be burned, when it is within their power to live nobly according to God, and not according to custom? For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment. By sad experience, even a child knows how superstition destroys and piety saves.
And you know not that, of all truths, this is the truest, that the good and godly shall obtain the good reward, inasmuch as they held goodness in high esteem; while, on the other hand, the wicked shall receive meet punishment.
• Clement Comments on the First Epistle of Peter. II
“Twice dead,” he says: once, namely, when they sinned by transgressing, and a second time when delivered up to punishment, according to the predestined judgments of God; inasmuch as it is to be reckoned death, even when each one does not forthwith deserve the inheritance. “
• Clement Who Is the Rich Man that Shall Be Saved? XXXIII.
For though sparing, and aiming at testing, who will receive meritoriously or not, it is possible for you to neglect some that are loved by God; the penalty for which is the punishment of eternal fire.
• Clement Exhortation to the Heathen. Chap. VII.
will you not allow the heavenly Word, the Saviour, to be bound on to you as an amulet, and, by trusting in God’s own charm, be delivered from passions which are the diseases of the mind, and rescued from sin? — for sin is eternal death.​

 

[HighCherub]

Universalism is damnable.
Sort of ironic really

But on a serious note- universalism is as disastrous a concept as it is appealing to naive believers.