The Universalist Story is Not a Realistic Story (Annihilationism vs. Universalism)

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Mark Corbett]

Do think unclean spirits/devils will ever be consumed to nothing? They are afraid of being destroyed. This destruction is not to burn till they disappear, but they fear torment. Sometimes a devil used the word destroy in the same way he also used torment.

Mark 1:24

“Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.”

Luke 4:34

“Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.”

Matthew 8:29

“And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?”

Mark 5:7

“And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.”

Revelation 20:10

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

The devils seemed to know that being destroyed - means for them being tormented endlessly.

Vinsight4u, I have a few thoughts regarding your comment.

1. The final fate of demons and Satan is related to the topic of the final fate of the unrighteous. However, I want to point out that Conditional Immortality, at least as understood and promoted by groups like Rethinking Hell, is focused on the fate of people. There are some Annihilationists who believe that while unrighteous people will eventually perish (John 3:16), be destroyed in body and soul (Matthew 10:28), and burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6), that a different fate awaits Satan and his demons. The Bible tells us FAR less about demons than about people. I myself think it is most likely that the demons and Satan will eventually be destroyed like the unrighteous people, but that they may possibly suffer a much longer amount of time before they finally and utterly perish.

2. The only verse which speaks of the eternal torment of Satan is Revelation 20:10. This verse occurs in a book which is full of symbolic images in visions. Many of the images are not literal. Therefore, I think it is possible (even likely) that when John sees Satan, the false prophet, and the beast being tormented forever in a lake of fire that this is symbolic. Symbolic of what? Perhaps coming to a terrible end after immense suffering.

3. There is Biblical support for interpreting the vision of the beast in the lake of fire as referring to its destruction:

NIV Revelation 17:11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Also, in a similar vision in Daniel, the fire at judgment is used to destroy the dead beast's body, not torment it:

Daniel 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. 11 "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.

I spent a great deal of time studying Revelation is depth. I wrote a series of post on this topic on my blog. One of those posts specifically addresses how John's visions including non-literal hyperbolic symbols of judgment. Anyone interested in more detail than is in this comment may read this:

What is the Second Death? Blood.

Here is a graphic from the above post (to understand how it relates, see the link above):

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Mark Corbett]

I think we have to look at the word "destruction" as to what it means it both the Old and the New Testament. It can mean ruin or waste. such as - the wide gate leads to destruction. . . .

I agree that we should look at the word "destruction". The verse you mention is here:

NIV Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

BGT Matthew 7:13 Εἰσέλθατε διὰ τῆς στενῆς πύλης· ὅτι πλατεῖα ἡ πύλη καὶ εὐρύχωρος ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ἀπώλειαν καὶ πολλοί εἰσιν οἱ εἰσερχόμενοι δι᾽ αὐτῆς·

In this verse, the word translated destruction is apoleia. The verb form of this word is used by John in John 3:16 and by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:

ESV 1 Corinthians 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

BGT 1 Corinthians 15:18 ἄρα καὶ οἱ κοιμηθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ ἀπώλοντο.

The passage in 1 Cor 15 is very helpful. Here, Paul is discussing a terrible hypothetical situation where no one is raised from the dead. In this situation, Paul is also imagining that there are no consequences in the afterlife for our actions on earth. If this were true, Paul says we might as well live like the heathen:

ESV 1 Corinthians 15:32 What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

Because there are no future consequences, it seems that Paul is describing a terrible hypothetical situation where people simply cease to exist. They are no longer conscious in any way or form after death. This is what we mean by "annihilation". What word does Paul choose to mean annihilation? He chooses apollumi.

Praise God, for believers this is only a hypothetical situation. Even unbelievers will be raised to judgment. But then unbelievers will be apollumi-ed. Annihilation is their end! Paul says so:

ESV Philippians 3:19 Their end is destruction (apoleia), their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[ClementofA]

Praise God, for believers this is only a hypothetical situation. Even unbelievers will be raised to judgment. But then unbelievers will be apollumi-ed. Annihilation is their end! Paul says so:

ESV Philippians 3:19 Their end is destruction (apoleia), their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

Compare:

"So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth." (Gen.6:13)

The "end" of all people was "destruction" by God. This already happened. Yet they are not annihilated forever. And they will be resurrected. Their "end" was only a temporary end or result or outcome. Not final destiny.

The earth was "destroyed", not endlessly annihilated (Gen.6:13).

Likewise with Phil.3:19.

Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; 10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil.2:9-11)

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm