The Universalist Story is Not a Realistic Story (Annihilationism vs. Universalism)

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[ClementofA]

I believe that God could override their freewill and force them to obey. But this type of forced obedience is not what He wants. It is not they type of love He wants. Rather than forcing them to obey, or allowing them to continue in misery, He chooses to destroy them completely. It is not unjust. It is not even unloving given that the alternative would be for them to live in misery, since that is the certain outcome of choosing to reject God's love and not love Him.

What this says is that God failed in the way He created man, who can reach a point of becoming totally hardened beyond even the ability of God's Omnipotence & Love being capable of reaching such a man. For One as Wise as God, that seems unlikely.

What is unloving is the part where He raises these allegedly 100% hardened humans back to life, not for an opportunity for salvation, but to be tormented.

 

[ClementofA]

* More amazing still, Adam and Eve started off in a perfect paradise. The devil could lie to them, but there is no evidence he could harm them. They chose to listen to the serpent and disobey God.

* Finally, and perhaps most importantly, the devil started off as a good angel living in a perfect Heaven in the bright light of God’s truth and love. Without any source of evil in his world, the devil chose to rebel. He took many of the angels with him.

Compare the biblical account of King David. After all that God had shown him & done for him, he committed two horribly wicked crimes that were each worthy of him being stoned to death under the law. He committed premeditated adultery and murder. Will David be sent by God to endless annihilation? Or did the Lord have mercy on him?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Mark Corbett]

What this says is that God failed in the way He created man, who can reach a point of becoming totally hardened beyond even the ability of God's Omnipotence & Love being capable of reaching such a man. For One as Wise as God, that seems unlikely.

What is unloving is the part where He raises these allegedly 100% hardened humans back to life, not for an opportunity for salvation, but to be tormented.

It does not have to mean God failed in the way He created man, and I certainly don't think it means God failed. It means that His goal of creating people in such a way that they can truly love with agape-love (by which I mean they type of love God has) is so important that God was willing to accept the consequence that this would also mean that people could choose to reject him and become hardened to the point where they could not be saved without destroying their free will.

 

[Mark Corbett]

What this says is that God failed

This argument (which I quote to and respond to more specifically in comment #47, above) is part of a broad category of Universalist arguments which basically say: "If everyone is not saved, then God failed."

This category of arguments is so important that I have started a new thread to address it. You may of course continue to discuss this here, or you may go to this thread, which is more narrowly focused (or hopefully will be) on these types of arguments:

The Universalist Story has the Wrong Goal

 

[Mark Corbett]

Compare the biblical account of King David. After all that God had shown him & done for him, he committed two horribly wicked crimes that were each worthy of him being stoned to death under the law. He committed premeditated adultery and murder. Will David be sent by God to endless annihilation? Or did the Lord have mercy on him?

The debate here is between Christian Universalists, Christian Annihilationists, and Christian Traditionalists (who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment).

What we have in common as Christians is far more important than our different views on the nature of Hell. Part of what we have in common is that we all believe in God's amazing grace. We all believe that God is willing and in fact eager to offer forgiveness and grace to terrible famous sinners like David and terrible less-known sinners like ourselves. David repented. He trusted God even after his terrible sin.

We also all believe (I think, I hope) that God's saving grace is received only through faith in Jesus Christ.

Part of what we disagree on is whether every single person will eventually trust and accept Christ as Lord and Savior and thus be saved. As a result we disagree on whether or not all are saved.

 

[William Tanksley Jr]

Malachi 1 and Isaiah 34 show what happens to the wicked. They are located in the land of Edom - where none pass through it. The land that will be made burning pitch and brimstone. These people God will have indignation against for ever.

I'm not sure why you're saying that Malachi 1 teaches that the wicked will be in the land of Edom. To the best of my knowledge it doesn't teach anything like that. What am I missing? What I do not miss, though, is that Malachi 4:1-3 clearly says that whatever land the wicked are in, they'll be turned to ash and the righteous will walk on their ashes. This is consistent with many passages like Psalm 37, which say that "the future of the wicked will be destroyed" so that "the meek will inherit the earth;" and "though you look for the wicked in his place, he will not be there."

Keep reading Isaiah 34, and you'll find that the land will become the dwelling place of wild animals, which is a Semitic figure of speech for returning the land to near-chaos and wildness, but thereafter those wild creatures will be cared for lovingly by God, each one provided with a mate. There's no living space there for humans.

The worm is - their - as in a personal worm that does not die.

Yes, the worm (singular) is theirs (plural). That doesn't make the worm personal, where could you get the idea? The "their" is "the corpses" of those who rebelled against God and were slain by Him with flaming fire and mighty chariots (also quoted by Paul in 2 Thess 1).

This phrasing -- a singular worm for plural corpses -- indicates a common idiom where the most common thing that appears with shameful decay is used to represent the entire process of decay.

But either way, worms on corpses doesn't hint at pain.

Bodies die, but that does not mean even in the first death that the soul decayed any or died.

Undeniably. But the bodies indeed die, and God warned that the soul that sins will die. Even if that doesn't happen at the first death, it doesn't mean it'll never happen.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Right, and Jesus said the way that happens is that those who do not believe will "perish", which means to die.

 

[ClementofA]

It does not have to mean God failed in the way He created man, and I certainly don't think it means God failed. It means that His goal of creating people in such a way that they can truly love with agape-love (by which I mean they type of love God has) is so important that God was willing to accept the consequence that this would also mean that people could choose to reject him and become hardened to the point where they could not be saved without destroying their free will.

What that adds up to is...a really dumb God. Who was not wise enough to create human beings and angels in such a way that they would not become 100% hardened to the point where even God's own unfailing love & omnipotence were impotent to still reach them, to woo, call, draw, correct, chasten and punish with a goal of ultimate repentance and salvation, no matter how long it took.

Strangely, even though God desires all men be saved, as Scripture says, in your view He knew beforehand that all would not be saved because of how He made them. Why desire something that you already know can't happen & won't happen? Is God confused?

What is unloving in your position is the part where He raises these allegedly 100% hardened humans back to life, not for an opportunity for salvation, but to be tormented. Why not just let them "rest in peace" or as you see it oblivion or the nothingness of death's nonexistence?

I believe that in order for people to love the way God wants them to, they must have free will.

In that case people in heaven will have free will to reject God, just like the angels of heaven who allegedly rebelled with Lucifer. So what is guaranteeing your eternal life will be eternal?

OTOH if freewill is taken away in heaven, then why not take away the freewill of those you consider hardened beyond God's reach, give them a new heart to love God, & let them enjoy endless bliss in heaven with everyone else?

If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for any one to reject God forever.

Tom Talbott on free will universalism:

Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 9)

 

[ClementofA]

We all believe that God is willing and in fact eager to offer forgiveness and grace to terrible famous sinners like David and terrible less-known sinners like ourselves. David repented. He trusted God even after his terrible sin.

Yes, he did. So why put a time limit for repentance on others like Adam & Eve or Satan who have also committed terrible sins? If David, after all God had shown him & done for him fell so horribly from grace, was forgiven, why can't others like him? Furthermore, why would anyone think Adam & Eve died as 100% hardened sinners? Because of one sin they committed? Where is the Scriptural support for that. As i said:

Compare the biblical account of King David. After all that God had shown him & done for him, he committed two horribly wicked crimes that were each worthy of him being stoned to death under the law. He committed premeditated adultery and murder. Will David be sent by God to endless annihilation? Or did the Lord have mercy on him?

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Mark Corbett]

Yes, he did. So why put a time limit for repentance on others like Adam & Eve or Satan who have also committed terrible sins?

The truth is, I'm not certain why God puts a time limit on people for repentance. However, as I shared in the OP, I believe one likely reason for this is that the longer people sin, the harder their hearts become and the darker their thoughts. It may be that at some point in each life (which I could never judge, but God could) there is no longer any benefit in giving them more time. I'm not claiming that this explains everything, only that I see evidence that this may explain part of it, as I shared in the OP. The following verse does not "prove" this, but it certainly fits well with this understanding:

NIV Hebrews 3:15 As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."

 

[Darren J. Clark]

A good apologetic against Universalism.

But I am wondering why you list "Annihilationism" as the other option; another choice that has no biblical support.

I prefer to identify as a Conditionalist, but I would point out there are many biblical text that prima facie support "annihilationism". One can't just dismiss this believe out of hand. I don't think you were being deliberately obtuse but you should know some very prominent Evangelicals defend "annihilationism". They don't do so in a Scriptural vacuum.

 

[Darren J. Clark]

The argument of the OP boils down to making God's omnipotence impotent, as if the Almighty has no more He can do for hardened sinners to bring about their salvation. His hands are tied. He who created billions of stars is helpless to do anything for the salvation of these lost souls.

Scripture nowhere says anyone is beyond saving, not even Satan. Quite the contrary.

As Jesus said, With man this is impossible, but with God all is possible.

Is anything too difficult for Him Who created a universe that spans billions of light years in its length?

Have people who have seen a few miracles of God and still rejected Him gone too far? Scripture speaks of Satanic forces performing amazing things as well. God hardened Pharoah's heart, if no one else. Jesus' disciple, doubting Thomas, had been with Him for years seeing His wondrous works & words of His resurrection, yet when told by other disciples the Lord is risen he refused to believe. Did his unbelief make him hardened beyond repair? No. Did Peter's denying the Lord 3 times after all Peter had been privileged to? No. How many people get to experience what Saul of Tarsus did, being made blind & healed & hearing Christ's voice from heaven? Or being made as an animal for 7 years as the King in Daniel, to humble him. Such things are just a drop in the ocean compared to what God omnipotent, who created the universe, is capable of doing to bring about the humbling of a person.

Interesting comments on God and his being impotent. I guess the same charge could be levelled at anyone who thinks God let Adam and Eve sin in the garden. He could have stopped hem and prevented all that evil and suffering coming into the world. Why not just prevent all that if he is able to do so?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Mark Corbett]

What is unloving is the part where He raises these allegedly 100% hardened humans back to life, not for an opportunity for salvation, but to be tormented.

ClementofA, I want to acknowledge that you make a point which appears valid to me, although I do not believe your point supports Universalism.

It may be loving to annihilate people who are hardened to the point that they will not accept Christ rather than allow them to live in eternal misery. However, I admit that I do not see how it is loving to them to resurrect them to face judgment, some conscious suffering, and then irreversible extinction.

However, I believe that this action is consistent with God being a God of love, which He certainly is. God promised throughout the Bible that He would bring justice and payback those who hurt His people. His people have often suffered immensely, strengthened by God's promises. So it is loving to His people to raise the unrighteous, judge them before all, and treat them with justice.

I think this explanation makes sense. But perhaps there is a better explanation. At any rate, the Bible quite explicitly and repeatedly tells us, in many ways, that God will raise the unrighteous, He will pay them back according to their sins, and they will perish, be destroyed in body and soul, suffer a second death, and be burned to ashes.

 

[ClementofA]

However, I believe that this action is consistent with God being a God of love, which He certainly is. God promised throughout the Bible that He would bring justice and payback those who hurt His people. His people have often suffered immensely, strengthened by God's promises. So it is loving to His people to raise the unrighteous, judge them before all, and treat them with justice.

If God's people somehow get satisfaction from seeing other beings pointlessly tormented before being annihilated, i would suggest that it is God's people who should be the ones being tormented, since they are displaying a Jonathan Edwards' type of satisfaction with the sufferings of others.

In stark contrast to that we have early church writings where it is through the prayers of the saints that the lost in "hell" are finally saved.

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their robes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

[Mark Corbett]

If God's people somehow get satisfaction from seeing other beings pointlessly tormented before being annihilated, i would suggest that it is God's people who should be the ones being tormented, since they are displaying a Jonathan Edwards' type of satisfaction with the sufferings of others.

God certainly will not "pointlessly" torment anyone.

However, God does promise to pay back the unrighteous according to their sins. This is not "pointless", it is justice.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

NIV Romans 12:19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

Also, in his vision, John sees some of God's people who have been killed rightly calling out for vengeance in Heaven:

NIV Revelation 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

Perhaps many of us have not suffered the types of severe injustice which have been frequently suffered by God's people throughout history, and continue to be around the world today. This may make it more difficult for us to appreciate the value of final justice. Yes, in this life, like Stephen, we are called to pray for our enemies and seek their salvation. But this is not in conflict with desiring justice after we are in Heaven on those who have finally rejected God's grace.