The seals were opened by Christ during the first century, and then John was told to "Come and see."
John then wrote what he saw in the Book of Revelation.
That does not mean all of those events have now occurred.
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No problems at all with the post-trib view, for that is what is actually written, AS I have already proven in earlier posts.
Your #1 is false, simply because the "wrath" Apostle Paul spoke of in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 is TIMED with the "sudden destruction" upon the deceived there, which happens on the "day of the Lord" he also showed there. That means... are your ready?... it means... THAT "wrath"... is about GOD's Wrath upon the Wicked on the 'last' day of this world! So of course, God's wrath is NOT appointed to those of us in Christ Jesus! Your Pre-trib teachers are either deceived about which "wrath" Paul was pointing to, or they purposefully are out to deceive the gullible who won't do their own Bible study.
Like I said, the Pre-trib doctors have deceived you about what "wrath" Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5:9. Because you quickly 'jump' to that, without grasping the previous 8 verses in that Chapter, means you heed men, and not God's Word.
Jesus said He shortened the tribulation for the sake of His elect. He never said there His coming would be in the middle of that "great tribulation". He specifically said... His coming is AFTER... the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27). So already you are spreading falsehoods against His Holy Writ.
That's what those on a pre-trib rapture theory will be found guilty of when Jesus does return at the end of the tribulation, and finds they have not been watching the SIGNS He gave His Church about the end of this world. The pre-trib doctors are preparing their congregations to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ who comes first in place of... Jesus Christ Who comes later. That's why Jesus answered His disciples of where the first ones taken are taken to, and it's to wheresoever the fowls are gathered to feast on dead carcasses (end of Luke 17 and Matthew 24:28).
No man knows the year, the month, the day, nor the hour of Christ's return. But those in Christ are... to know the 'season' of events leading up to His coming that He gave, as I have already pointed to in a previous post.
Not physical escape, but the 'hour of temptation'. Only Christ's elect who listen to Him in His Word will spiritually... escape the coming "great tribulation". And this escape means NOT BEING TEMPTED TO BOW IN FALSE WORSHIP TO THE COMING FALSE MESSIAH. That's... what the hour of temptation is about, and that is what we are to pray to escape.
And furthermore, how can the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 gathering of the saints by Christ even happen AFTER that tribulation like He said if the escape is meant to be a physical escape during the tribulation? You don't realize it, but the pre-trib rapture doctors have gone directly opposite of Christ's Own Words there with their physical escapist theories.
Obviously, you are not aware that the time of "great tribulation" is for the very end. The Seals of Rev.6 are the same SIGNs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. The time great tribulation starts is with Matthew 24:15 when the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel is setup in Jerusalem. That's to involve the placing of the image of the beast idol in Jerusalem for all the world to bow in false worship to (Revelation 13:11 forward). That... is what kicks off the "great tribulation", because Christ's elect are not going to bow to it nor that pseudo-Christ, and will be persecuted for it, even turned in by deceived loved ones who will bow.
So in Matthew 24:6, Lord Jesus said that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, THEN THE END IS NOT YET. That means the END will be a time when ALL wars have stopped. Thus the 2nd Seal is NOT great tribulation time, not yet.
I see you've been reading the standard Pre-trib Rapture school propaganda from books written by Hal Lindsey and LaHaye. Those are built on sensationalism to serve man's false pre-trib rapture theory, not God's Word.
Many simply skip over the next verse after Revelation 6:12 which links with that particular earthquake...
Rev 6:13
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV
That's a heavy metaphor Christ gave to His elect which keep His Word. No wonder those who make up their own doctrines can't understand it. Just who as a star of heaven FELL to earth originally?
Luke 10:18
18 And He said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."
KJV
What event in Revelation does that link to? It links to Revelation 12:7-9 for the end. That is about the casting out of Heaven of Satan and his angels to this earthly dimension where we live, for the end, and in person. The world is going to see him as he is, a beautiful cherub with the image of man, for God said He made him the full pattern (Ezekiel 28). Even his fateful destruction God showed will be a fire burning him up upon the earth in the sight of men (Ezekiel 28:18).
So what the first part... of that 6th Seal shows, is the time of the "great tribulation" starting with Satan and his angels being cast out of the heavenly down to this earth, like untimely figs, which is about the literal winter fig that grows in the winter, but falls off early in the spring. Lord Jesus' symbolic time of coming is at the end of summer, the time of the good fig.
But you won't understand that, because you can't even keep to what Lord Jesus said in His written Word, as I have already shown. Thus the real 'earthquake', and not a fake one the false one is going to create, the real one only happens on the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus returns on the 7th Trumpet, and last part of the 6th Seal.
We've been in that Seal for a long time now. Haven't you seen how many in Africa have starved to death, especially those in Somalia?
We are not far off in our Eschatology, brother. I believe there are two “Taking Up” events for the saints.
For your info., I believe there is….
#1. An Unexpected Rapture or Translation of the Saints (This Rapture takes place either Prior to Daniel’s 70th Week or it takes place in the 1st half of Daniel’s 70th week, i.e. in the first 3 and a half years) (Note: This event is unique because it is a changing of the saint’s bodies to be like that of angels whereby they will rise up to meet the Lord Jesus Christ in the air in the clouds). This event is described to us in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. In the Rapture, we are told that we will be raised a spiritual body (similar to like that of angels). So we can possibly rise on our own without any aid by angels gathering us (which appears to not be the case in the second “taking up” event).
#2. A Secondary taking up event that is not a Rapture but it is a gathering of the remaining Elect (or saints) by angels (This happens in the Middle of Daniel’s 70 Week). This event is alluded to in the Olivet discourse (like Matthew 24, etc.)
Jesus will be seen coming prior to the taking of His remaining Elect by angels, but Jesus will not return just yet to the Earth (like with the 2nd Coming mentioned in Revelation 19).
#3. A Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Whereby Jesus will return with His saints following Him down from Heaven). Jesus will be returning to the Earth to destroy the nations of this world (Whereby He will eventually set up a new kingdom) (Revelation 19). The Second Coming of Christ starts at the latter half of the 6th bowl judgment towards the End of the Tribulation. I do not believe there will be any call or taking up event by God at this point. So I believe Post Tribulationism is false.
Why do I believe in two taking up events for the saints?
In the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins we get a call to Marriage (Which is a parallel of the Rapture) (See the beginning of Matthew 25). In the parable it talks about how the faithful wise virgins are in let in through a door for the Marriage. Then in Luke 12:36, we learn about how AFTER the wedding more servants are called to enter through the door. “And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36).
Greetings Sister Bible Highlighter,
Thank you for your informative and good reply.
Could these Passages just be explaining how we are resurrected?
- I say this because I do not see a time period mentioned for a resurrection in those Scriptures you listed.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:5-10, which also is talking about the Resurrection, appears to place the resurrection after the Antichrist is revealed at the 2nd appearing of Lord Jesus to destroy him (2 Thessalonians 2:8), which would place the resurrection near the end of the Tribulation, but just before God pours out His wrath.
- In addition, the Scriptures are in agreement that the saints will be resurrected in glorified bodies like that of Lord Jesus, so I believe that is all those Passages are discussing that you listed.
- Lastly, Revelation appears to indicate only two resurrection periods: the 1st resurrection, and the 2nd one at the judgment (Revelation 20), which will be in glorified bodies like that of Lord Jesus.
In Matthew 24, the resurrection is placed after the Sun and moon is blacked out, and the stars fall from the sky, placing this even just before the wrath of God begins to be poured out, and before God destroys the antichrist and his armies (Revelation 6:12-16; Revelation 14:14-16; Revelation 16; Revelation 19; Zechariah 14).
The Scroll that Lord Jesus is unrolling, with the seals being broken, appears to begin with a basic overview, then a more detailed review of those events is given as the scroll continues to be unsealed, and then a further magnified snapshot account of certain events is given as the Scroll progressively unrolls.
I agree, however the taking up event by God is actually at that point - near the end of the Tribulation (cut short by Lord Jesus appearing) and before the wrath of God is poured out See: Matthew 24:29-31 compare with: (Revelation 6:12-16; Revelation 14:14-16),
Both of the Revelation chapters appear to give information about the same even, but given more detail as to the wrath judgments and the 1st resurrection in Revelation 14:14-16).
Up to that point, near the end of the Tribulation, but just before that 1st resurrection, the Christians are still on the earth and are being subdued: (Revelation 13:5-10; Daniel 7:20-26).
You said:Consequently no Scripture states that the Tribulation is 7 years; rather, the antichrist makes a covenant of peace for 7 years, but then breaks the treaty in the middle of the 7 years (3 1/2 years), that is the Tribulation period when all hell breaks lose, but the saints continue to live during that time, but are being subdued and many killed, until Christ returns.
Um, it’s brother, my friend; Not sister.
I believe there are two taking ups of the saints (Unexpected Rapture event & the Mid Tribulation Gathering Up By Angels), and two bodily resurrections of the saints (One before the Millennium & One before the Final New Earth).
Ah, I misunderstood you. I thought you were Mid Trib. So you are Post Trib? If so, I am not really interested in debating or discussing that viewpoint at this time. For me: I see that viewpoint as highly unlikely and discussing such a view only gets people’s feathers flying. So I hope you understand if I choose to by-pass such a discussion currently.
Do you believe that the first three seals happens in the 1st half of Daniel’s 70th week?
If so, then that would be tribulation of some kind. I believe seals 2, and 3 are pretty bad. Peace being taken from the Earth, and worldwide famine sounds like a tribulation to me. Tribulation is defined in the 1913 dictionary as: “That which occasions distress, trouble, or vexation; severe affliction.”
However, that private interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) is contrary to authoritative NT teaching:The Unexpected Rapture:
(Which either is Pre-Trib, or takes place sometime in the first 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation):
I have recently come to realization that the Rapture is so unexpected that Protestants may have even got it wrong. But they may have also have gotten it right, too. We do not know of the day or hour of our Lord’s return. But the Rapture must take place before the Middle of the Tribulation because that is when our Lord will appear to come in the sky so as to gather His remaining Elect by angels.
Actually, the elect who are alive will be caught up together with the resurrected elect in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and descend with him to earth (parousia) for the Final Judgment at the end of time.Rapturism is unbiblical and foreign to the historic Christian faith.
The Scriptures teach that Christ will return, in glory, to judge the living and the dead, and that at His coming the dead shall be raised--but those who are alive will also partake in the resurrection "we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed".
If by "fix the world" you mean the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, that is the end of time.Rapturism, by contrast, teaches that Christians are going to be taken up into heaven to escape the world.
Of the many false doctrines that are popular today, Rapturism ranks high among the most dangerous and false. Not only because Rapturism gets the Parousia all wrong (Christ comes down to fix the world, not we leave the world to escape the world), but also because the source of Rapturism is Dispensationalism--a thoroughly anti-Christian theological system that fundamentally denies the very Gospel of Jesus Christ.
-CryptoLutheran
Actually, the elect who are alive will be caught up together with the resurrected elect in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and descend with him to earth (parousia) for the Final Judgment at the end of time.
If by "fix the world" you mean the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, that is the end of time.
If you mean clean up this one and make it a better place, Christ does not come again for that purpose.
With Enoch, also keep in mind how God preserved others from danger, while not taking them out of the sphere of danger, he preserved them in the danger:I believe I said what I needed to say. Not interested in debating on Eschatology at this time. I will of course keep trying to study the different views and continue to prayerfully look at Scripture (comparing Scripture with Scripture), and live for the Lord looking for His imminent return. For we can die of a heart attack; Or the Lord could come back today or tomorrow. The point is... that we are to watch and be ready spiritually. We need to not justify sin in this life. But if we take a step back, which view leads me to want to live more holy and which view shows that God is loving and good? Is God a rewarder to those who seek Him? These answers must be sought after in truth with God's Word. Did not God take Enoch whereby he did not see death? I believe God is good to those who are faithful to Him. For God works all things together for good to those who love God.
Do you understand the heavens will be destroyed by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat, and there will be a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness?Meet Him in the air, as He is coming down. Yes.
Meet Him in the air, and then fly off into heaven. No.
I mean the new heavens and new earth, which is taking this good creation of God and making it whole again.
Our bodies will be radically changed, from corruptible, sinful, weak to immortal, glorious and powerful.God is no more going to toss away His creation than He is going to toss away our bodies. Bodily resurrection and the renewal of all things are intertwined.
Do you understand the heavens will be destroyed by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat, and there will be a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness?
Our bodies will be radically changed, from corruptible, sinful, weak to immortal, glorious and powerful.
With Enoch, also keep in mind how God preserved others from danger, while not taking them out of the sphere of danger, he preserved them in the danger:
Noah in the flood,
Lot in the plain, not in the mountains,
Israel in the plagues,
Elijah in the famine,
youths in the fiery furnace,
Daniel in the lions' den,
woman on the earth (Revelation 12:14-16).
God will protect his people in judgments and tribulations.
Let's see what Jesus Christ has to say about that. (Matthew 13:30) 30 Let both grow together till the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (Matthew 13:38-40) 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (Matthew 13:49) 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, ( Jesus is clear there is no rapture before tribulation and all true believers in Christ will have to endure to the end. Please don't fall for man fabricated doctrine, the word is clear the wicked and the just are all here together at his appearing at the end of the world and then a new beginning.)The Unexpected Rapture:
(Which either is Pre-Trib, or takes place sometime in the first 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation):
I have recently come to realization that the Rapture is so unexpected that Protestants may have even got it wrong. But they may have also have gotten it right, too. We do not know of the day or hour of our Lord’s return. But the Rapture must take place before the Middle of the Tribulation because that is when our Lord will appear to come in the sky so as to gather His remaining Elect by angels.
Rapturism is unbiblical and foreign to the historic Christian faith.
The Scriptures teach that Christ will return, in glory, to judge the living and the dead, and that at His coming the dead shall be raised--but those who are alive will also partake in the resurrection "we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed".
Rapturism, by contrast, teaches that Christians are going to be taken up into heaven to escape the world.
Of the many false doctrines that are popular today, Rapturism ranks high among the most dangerous and false. Not only because Rapturism gets the Parousia all wrong (Christ comes down to fix the world, not we leave the world to escape the world), but also because the source of Rapturism is Dispensationalism--a thoroughly anti-Christian theological system that fundamentally denies the very Gospel of Jesus Christ.
-CryptoLutheran
Let's see what Jesus Christ has to say about that. (Matthew 13:30) 30 Let both grow together till the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (Matthew 13:38-40) 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (Matthew 13:49) 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, ( Jesus is clear there is no rapture before tribulation and all true believers in Christ will have to endure to the end. Please don't fall for man fabricated doctrine, the word is clear the wicked and the just are all here together at his appearing at the end of the world and then a new beginning.)
I'm cool. . .he also didn't tell Lot, Elijah, Daniel, youths in the fiery furnace, Israel in the plagues and the woman on the earth to build a boat either. They didn't need a boat, and neither will I.Right, but are you told to build a boat like Noah?
Building a boat does not, but being protected in the sphere of danger certainly does,What applied to them does not always apply to all believers throughout time.
Just comparing Scripture with Scripture, realizing that authoritive NT teaching always governs its meaning.Anyways, moving on like I said.
Have a great day in the Lord.
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