The Two Beasts and the harlot of Revelation Explained

cgaviria said:

False doctrine will indeed prevent you attaining salvation, because if what abides in you is darkness and no light then you will not know how to walk on a straight path, and will thus lead you to perdition,

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. (Acts 2:42)

You must therefore correct false doctrine if you wish to attain eternal life, because if your mind has false doctrine it will prevent you from attaining the full stature of Christ.

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cgaviria said:

First of all scripture never contradicts scripture. So if the scripture says Jerusalem is spiritually Sodom and Egypt, how is it that you are saying its Jerusalem? But even so, lets analyze your points,

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How do you know exactly where Peter was when on the day he wrote this epistle, even assuming that he did wrote it in a day? The epistle doesn't say where he is, nor is it saying which city its referring to as "Bablyon". Its speculative, its hard to know for certain, and if anything there is more popular belief to the contrary, that he was indeed in Rome

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I have no scriptures backing up my claims about the harlot being the Vatican? How about this initial content for this thread.... yea, did you not see the scriptures and spiel there? Gimme a break.

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Its interesting to note that all the references you used to try to prove Jerusalem has 7 mountains are all biased websites trying to prove Jerusalem is the harlot. Here is my unbiased reference, wikipedia, who can give two hoots if Rome is the harlot or not

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But even if we went with it, okay, Jerusalem has seven mountains, but so does Rome. So which one do we pick? Do we pick the city that has already been identified as something else (Sodom and Egypt), or the city that hasn't been identified but still fits the description very well, even better than Jerusalem.

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parousia70 said:

Jerusalem is Sodom, Egypt & Babylon, according to scripture.



Popular Belief?
Scripture please.

You have no scriptural reason to believe Peter wrote that from Rome and every scriptural reason to believe he wrote it from Jerusalem where he, with Silvanus and Mark, lived and ministered (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was the minister to the Circumcision.

Peter was not at Rome at the time he wrote his first epistle. He was writing from the Church where Mark and Silvanus were from:

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)

"Mark" and "Silvanus" lived in Jerusalem (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). Peter was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).



Oh I read your OP, amounted to a whole lot of speculation propped up only by your non scriptural opinions about Rome & The Vatican.

Unlike you, I have actual scripture that calls Jerusalem by all the same names and descriptions as it does MB.

Guess I'll have to post them again, perhaps you did not see them the first time:

MYSTERY BABYLON
Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.

That should be enough to settle any debate right there, but of course, there's more...

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:22-23
...and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 25:10-11
Moreover I WILL TAKE FROM THEM the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;

Show us the scripture that says God will take the Voice of the bridegroom and sounds of millstones from Rome?


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

JERUSALEM
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [our Lord died in Jerusalem, of course]


MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Exodus 28:4-6, 17-20
they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister
unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with skillful work....And thou shalt taketwo onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel...Exodus 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings...

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 4:30
Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 3:1
but thou hast played THE HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:3
and thou hadst a w-hore's forehead...

Ezekiel 16:35-36
Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy ABOMINATIONS, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

What Scripture can you cite calling Rome or the Vatican a harlot?

Only one city is called a harlot multiple times in scripture.


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL
Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! ... Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: THAT THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, IT SHALL BE REQUIRED of this generation.

The cross references in Holy Scripture are so abundant as to leave us without any doubt who is Mystery Babylon -- JERUSALEM AND APOSTATE ISRAEL.

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Your task is to prove WITH SCRIPTURE that these scriptural cross references I have cited are wrong.


This wiki is much more thorough, citing all the cities on 7 hills:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills
Looks like Seattle is even in the running...

Why look outside of scripture and rely on speculation and opinion when scripture alone gives every reference we need?

Scripturally, no other city fits the description of MB better than Jerusalem, as I have demonstrated above.

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cgaviria said:

You're not incorrect in saying that Jerusalem was guilty in the killing of the prophets, but they are not the only ones that have martyred the saints. Notice this,

that should be required, the blood of all the prophets being poured out from the founding of the world, of this generation. (Luke 11:50 [ABP])

Which generation? The generation alive at the time of Jesus.

34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

And which prophets?

From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, the one perishing between the altar and the house. Yes, I say to you, it will be required of this generation. (Luke 11:51 [ABP])

And how was it required of that generation? With the destruction of Jerusalem,

[1] And coming forth, Jesus went from the temple. And his disciples came forward to display to him the constructions of the temple. [2] And Jesus said to them, Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you, In no way shall there be left here a stone upon a stone, which in any way shall be resting.
(Matthew 24:1-2 [ABP])

The killing of the prophets from Abel down to Zacharias is indeed required of Jerusalem, however, its requirement was already exacted by its desolation that came with the fulfillment of its destruction of the city and its temple not long after Jesus Christ died. It is already fulfilled.

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Also, going on the topic of Peter, you are presuming things about that scripture.

Could it be referring to Rome as well if we were to presume things from just reading this? Absolutely, and I believe it to be referring to Rome because I have understanding of who Babylon is spiritually based on the visions in the Book of Revelation.

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cgaviria said:

You haven't laid out any cement. But if lets say we went along with "your" story, and how you went along and correlated literal things the priests wore with figurative things the harlot wears.... explain then these things to me:

1. Who then is the beast of the sea?
2. Where is the 42 month prophecy of the beast of the sea killing the saints fulfilled?
3. Who are the ten horns of the beast?
4. Who are the seven heads of the beast?
5. Who is the harlot and how does she relate to both these beasts?
6. What is conveyed in the harlot riding this beast?
7. Who is the 8th and final head of the beast?
8. Who is the beast of the earth?
9. What is the image of the beast this beast of the earth causes men to make?
10. What is the mark of the beast the beast of the earth implements?

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1 Peter 5:12-14
12By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand. 13The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son. 14Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

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Albert Barnes
From this it is clear that it was written at Babylon, but still there has been no little difference of opinion as to what place is meant here by Babylon… the apostles, when they sent an epistle to the churches, and mentioned a place as the one where the Epistle was written, were accustomed to mention the real place… It would be hardly consistent with the dignity of an apostle, or any grave writer, to make use of what would be regarded as a nickname, when suggesting the name of a place where he then was… If Rome had been meant, it would have been hardly respectful to the church there which sent the salutation - “The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you” - to have given it this name. Peter mentions the church with respect and kindness; and yet it would have been scarcely regarded as kind to mention it as a “Church in Babylon,” if he used the term Babylon, as he must have done on such a supposition, to denote a place of eminent depravity…) The testimony of the Fathers on this subject does not demonstrate that Rome was the place intended…[T]hey do not give this as historical testimony, but as their own interpretation; and, from anything that appears, we are as well qualified to interpret the word as they were.” [Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible, introductory comments on 1 Peter]

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Believer’s Bible Commentary
“It is impossible to state with certainty who or what is meant by ‘She who is in Babylon, elect together with you.’”[ (MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments (electronic ed.) (1 Pe 5:13 ). Nashville: Thomas Nelson]

There is no evidence that Rome was ever called Babylon until after the writing of the Book of Revelation in a.d. 90–96, many years after Peter’s death”- [Believer’s Bible Commentary, Electronic Edition 1991 by the Criswell Center for Biblical Studies, Note on 1 Peter 5:13 ].

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Believer’s Study Bible
“Peter is probably alluding to the Babylon on the Euphrates, a part of that Eastern world where he lived and did his work, rather than Rome (with Babylon being utilized as a cryptic word). Evidence for this position includes the following: (1) There is no evidence that Rome was ever called Babylon until after the writing of the Book of Revelation in a.d. 90–96, many years after Peter’s death. (2) Peter’s method and manner of writing are not apocalyptic. On the contrary, Peter is a man plain of speech, almost blunt, who would not interject such a mystical allusion into his personal explanations and final salutation. (3) Babylon is no more cryptic than Pontus, Asia, or the other places mentioned when Peter says the elect in Babylon send greetings to the Jews of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. (4) Babylon, no longer a great world capital in the time of Peter, was still inhabited by a colony of people, mostly Jews, many of whom Peter befriended and won to Christ. (5) A study of the chronology of Peter’s travels argues for Babylon to be the Babylon on the Euphrates.

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Lorraine Boettner
“…Paul's work was primarily among the Gentiles, while Peter's was primarily among the Jews. Peter ministered to the Jews who were in exile in Asia Minor, "to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (I Peter 1:1 ), and in his journeys he went as far east as Babylon, from which city his first epistle (and probably his second) was addressed to the Jewish Christians in Asia Minor—She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you” (1 Peter 5:13 ). As most of Paul’s letters were addressed to churches he had evangelized, so Peter wrote to the Jewish brethren that he had evangelized, who were scattered through those provinces. While there is no Scriptural evidence at all that Peter went west to Rome, here is a plain statement of Scripture that he did go east to Babylon. Why cannot the Roman Church take Peter’s word to that effect? But his testimony, of course, must be circumvented by those who are so anxious to place him in Rome, and they take a curious way to do it. The Confraternity edition has an introductory note to I Peter which reads: "The place of composition is given as 'Babylon'...a cryptic designation of the city of Rome."

But there is no good reason for saying that "Babylon" means "Rome." The reason alleged by the Church of Rome for understanding Babylon to mean Rome is that in the book of Revelation Rome is called by that name (Rev. 17:5 ; 18:2 ). But there is a great difference between an apocalyptic book such as the book of Revelation, which for the most part is written in figurative and symbolic language, and an epistle such as this which is written in a straightforward, matter of fact style. In regard to Peter's assignment to work among the Jews, it is known that there were many Jews in Babylon in New Testament times. Many had not returned to Palestine after the Exile. Many others, such as those in Asia Minor and Egypt, had been driven out or had left Palestine for various reasons. Josephus says that some "gave Hyrcanus, the high priest, a habitation at Babylon, where there were Jews in great numbers" (Antiquities, Book XV, Ch. II, 2). Peter's assigned ministry to the Jews took him to those places where the Jews were in the greatest numbers, even to Babylon. (Roman Catholicism, 120)

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Isaiah 19:22-25
23In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: 25Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance

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• 1 Mar Aggai (c.66-81). First successor to the Apostleship of his spiritual director the Apostle Saint Thaddeus, one of the Seventy disciples. He in turn was the spiritual director of Mar Mari.
• 2 Palut of Edessa (c.81-87) renamed Mar Mari (c.87 – c.121). Second successor to the Apostleship of Mar Addai of the Seventy disciples. During his days a bishopric was formally established at Seleucia-Ctesiphon.
• 3 Abris (Abres or Ahrasius) (121–148 AD) Judah Kyriakos relocates Jerusalem Church to Edessa in 136 AD
• 4 Abraham (Abraham I of Kashker) (148–171 AD)
• 5 Yaʿqob I (Mar Yacob I) (c. 172–190 AD)
• 6 Ebid M’shikha (191–203)[8]
• 7 Ahadabui (Ahha d'Aboui) (204–220 AD) - First bishop of the East to get statikon as Catholicos. Ordained in 231 AD in Jerusalem Council.
• 8 Shahaloopa of Kashker (Shahlufa) (220–266 AD)
  • Bar Aggai (267–c. 280)

EDESSA
EDESSA, a city in the upper Euphrates Valley (today Urfa in Turkey). Archaeological remains are known in the area of the city going back to the second millennium B.C.E., and Edessa may very well have been a Hurrian city alternatively known as Orrhoe, Orhai, or Osrhoene. Until 11 C.E. Edessa was part of the border area that passed on various occasions from Parthian to Roman hands. The city was conquered in August 116 by Lusius Quietus, and remained a Roman possession until 216, when it was officially incorporated into the Roman Empire. The suppression of the Parthian resistance against the Romans meant also the subjugation of the Jews of the city (see Segal). By the end of the second century C.E. Edessa had become the center of Christianity beyond the Euphrates, and this development suggests a Jewish influence in the area during that period. It is known, for instance, that the local king during the early second century, Abgar VII, was a son of *Izates of Adiabene, a monarchy already converted to Judaism. Eusebius, a primary source regarding the establishment of Christianity in Edessa, relates that Abgar V had corresponded with Jesus himself, and as a result immediately accepted the teachings of the first Christian disciple to arrive at Edessa, the preacher Addai. The story is also given in the "Doctrine of Addai," which claims that the conversion involved, among others, Jewish silk merchants. The story is a Christian invention. The Palestinian Targum identifies the Erech of Genesis 10:10 with Edessa and refers to it, together with Ctesiphon and Nisibis, as one of the three Babylonian cities ruled by *Nimrod. In the Talmud the name of the community is Hadass.

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Berean777 said:

Look again at my post #174 and study it in detail. Notice I have included many sources across the board who are not only Christian, but also Jewish and also have held back many more.

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parousia70 said:

Peter was writing from the Church where Mark and Silvanus were from:

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)

"Mark" and "Silvanus" lived in Jerusalem (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). Peter was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).

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Berean777 said:

So Peter was pointing to Babylon in Iraq during the Edessa Christian church era which was almost 35 years before 70AD and some 65-70 years before the Revelation of John was written.

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