THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2021

Davy said:
1 Peter 4:5-6 5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. KJV That above Scripture shows there's no way around these facts that Jesus preached The Gospel to men that had died in the flesh, and then they were judged there whether to remain or be led out of the prison house based on their belief in The Gospel, and thus in the heavenly "live according to God in the spirit". Did that say 'sleep in a hole in the ground according to God in the spirit'? NO!

The scriptures here in 1 Peter 4:5-6 do not say anywhere that Jesus went to preach the gospel to dead people. Perhaps you might need to revisit this. 1 Peter 4:5-6 simply says (v3) those who speak evil of believers will have to give account of themselves to God who will judge the quick and the dead and that the gospel was already preached to those who have died that they might be judged and those who believe will live according to God in the Spirit. Your reading into the scriptures what they do not say or teach here.

Davy said:
Lord Jesus tried to explain this to the blind scribes and Pharisees also when they tried to trap Him with their carnal minds... Luke 20:36-38 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him. KJV Our Lord Jesus is showing them how God could not be called, "the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob", if they no longer existed. Lord Jesus is showing that they were already raised to heavenly and were alive in the heavenly. That 38th verse also confirms that meaning. It also confirms the 1 Peter 4:6 verse of those that have died living according to God in the spirit.

Context here is to the resurrection after the second coming v37 "Now that the dead are raised". The bible does not say anywhere that God could not be called, "the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob", if they no longer existed. The scripture simply says God is not the God of the dead but of the living. That is that dead according to Solomon as shown earlier says that "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5). That is that God is the God of the living not the God of the dead as the dead do not know anything.

Davy said:
So anyone can quote all kinds of Scripture examples of what people in The Old Testament and New Testament believed in their days about the tradition of soul sleep. But those who side with them have to discard the Scripture proofs shown above.

As shown above you may be better off do discard your view as it is not biblical as shown above and in the posts and scriptures provided in the OP on page 1.

Hope this is helpful

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2021

com7fy8 said:
Yes, God's word says those who die in Jesus "sleep" >

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." (1 Thessalonians 4:14)

When a person dies, often ones say the person is dead. So, a Christian can help to comfort people by saying a child of God who dies is "sleeping" . . . so we can know the person has left this life but is not totally gone. Paul's intention, here, is to encourage the Thessalonians that their dearly loved people in Jesus are not really dead . . . not totally gone after they die . . . but they "sleep" . . . meaning they really are still alive wherever God has them.

So, can some people walk in their sleep? yes

Can we be very active during our dreams while we sleep? yes

So, what we do while we "sleep in Jesus" will be . . . interesting . . . to discover, I would say.

And we have what happened with those souls who had been martyred for Christ and then were "under the altar" >

"When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who would be killed as they were, was completed." (Revelation 6:9-11)

So, these people have died, but they are "under the altar" in Heaven . . . plus they are communicating with God.

You can do things in your sleep, and you can wake up for a while and do things, then go back to sleep.

In any case, just now I notice how these martyrs are given "white robes", even though they have not been judged, yet . . . or resurrected, yet.

Absolutely com7fy8! Good post. This is the key thing here which is the state of the dead links directly to the resurrection which takes place at the second coming. Nice to see someone reading the bible for themselves thanks for sharing. From my reading of the scriptures God judging takes place before the second coming because His reward is with him (Revelation 22:12-14).

God bless

Gundy22 · Jun 15, 2021

ChetSinger said:
If the dead are asleep then why were the Israelites forbidden to inquire of them?

Great question, Chetsinger - which was just blown off and not answered.

It was REAL but WRONG to communicate with the dead - possible but not permitted - the instance of King Saul getting the witch to call up Samuel illustrates this.

Samuel correctly prophesies that Saul and his sons will be "with him" after battle the next day.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2021

Gundy22 said:
Great question, Chetsinger - which was just blown off and not answered.

It was REAL but WRONG to communicate with the dead - possible but not permitted - the instance of King Saul getting the witch to call up Samuel illustrates this.

Samuel correctly prophesies that Saul and his sons will be "with him" after battle the next day.

Nonsense. The question was not blown off at all. How was it blown off and not answered? King Saul was breaking God's commandments when he was seeking to know Gods' will and God would not answer him so he continued breaking Gods' commandments by seeking to know God's will through those who have familiar Spirits forbidden in the scriptures from a witch of Endor forbidden by God in Leviticus 19. Saul was not speaking to Samuel but the devil. As posted earlier, which was a part of the question asked, Israel was forbidden to practice and seek out those who practiced the pagan and heathen practices of divination, necromancy, those who have familiar spirits and witchcraft in the bible (Leviticus 19) because they are not from God and a part of the practices of the heathen nations and gentiles nations that were not following God. These practices are demonic.

Gundy22 · Jun 15, 2021

The Old Testament afterlife - was still as portrayed in Luke 16 - unredeemed on one side - redeemed on other side - separated by a gulf no one could cross. One realm HADES (the unseen) contained both Torments and Abraham's Bosom.

Jesus preached to spirits when He descended to hell, and brought the redeemed back with Him to heaven -- this is known as THE HARROWING OF HELL

Gundy22 · Jun 15, 2021

King Saul and his sons died in battle so were "with Samuel" the day after Samuel was called up.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2021

Gundy22 said:
The Old Testament afterlife - was still as portrayed in Luke 16 - unredeemed on one side - redeemed on other side - separated by a gulf no one could cross. One realm HADES (the unseen) contained both Torments and Abraham's Bosom.

Jesus preached to spirits when He descended to hell, and brought the redeemed back with Him to heaven -- this is known as THE HARROWING OF HELL

Already addressed in this thread. The redeemed and unredeemed take place at the harvest which is the end of the world at the second coming. Luke 16 is a parable (see post # 24 linked) and not literal. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Those who heard the gospel are now dead and the dead awake at the resurrection at the second coming *1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:57. You have some reading to catch up on.

Gundy22 · Jun 15, 2021

Paul blows Soul Sleep out of the water - contrasting being alive with being present with the Lord.

2Co 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He DID NOT SAY "willing rather to be absent from the body and to be dead asleep" which would have been the case if this soul sleep tripe was true.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2021

Gundy22 said:
King Saul and his sons died in battle so were "with Samuel" the day after Samuel was called up.

And your point here is? You do know that your trying to say here that God works through the witches of the heathen that he tells us not to use right? The witch of Endor was a Canaanite witch.

Gundy22 · Jun 15, 2021

1Pe 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Gundy22 · Jun 15, 2021

Jesus did not preach to those who were unconscious.

ChetSinger · Jun 15, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Because they are dead until the resurrection at the second coming. Divination, Necromancy, those who have familiar spirits and witchcraft are all forbidden in the bible (Leviticus 19). They are demonic.

As the link says, inquiring of the dead was forbidden because it was possible. Saul and the witch did it. Samuel didn't reply with "why have you awakened me?" but with "why have you disturbed me?".

Strong's describes the Samuel's word like this:

raw-gaz'; a primitive root; to quiver (with any violent emotion, especially anger or fear):—be afraid, stand in awe, disquiet, fall out, fret, move, provoke, quake, rage, shake, tremble, trouble, be wroth.

There's nothing in the passage saying that Samuel was awakened; rather, he was provoked and annoyed.

I realize that Ellen White has spoken on this matter so for any SDA member the subject is not open for consideration. And that's understandable to me. But if you're inclined, please click on the link. It's a short example of modern scholarship by a qualified Hebrew scholar.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2021

Gundy22 said:
Paul blows Soul Sleep out of the water - contrasting being alive with being present with the Lord. 2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.He DID NOT SAY "willing rather to be absent from the body and to be dead asleep" which would have been the case if this soul sleep tripe was true.

Not at all Paul supports death as a sleep as does the rest of the bible as shown on page one in the many posts and scriptures already provided. In regards to the resurrection of the just and the unjust. Paul actually says verbatim in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (51) Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. If Paul was to die in Christ it says no where in the scripture you quote that he is going straight to Heaven until after the resurrection.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2021

Gundy22 said:
Jesus did not preach to those who were unconscious.

Nope he already preached to them when they were alive and they died. You do know that Jesus is also the God of the old testament to right?

Hebrewselevensix · Jun 15, 2021

2 Maccabees 12:43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2021

ChetSinger said:
As the link says, inquiring of the dead was forbidden because it was possible. Saul and the witch did it. Samuel didn't reply with "why have you awakened me?" but with "why have you disturbed me?".

Strong's describes the Samuel's word like this:

raw-gaz'; a primitive root; to quiver (with any violent emotion, especially anger or fear):—be afraid, stand in awe, disquiet, fall out, fret, move, provoke, quake, rage, shake, tremble, trouble, be wroth.

There's nothing in the passage saying that Samuel was awakened; rather, he was provoked and annoyed.

I realize that Ellen White has spoken on this matter so for any SDA member the subject is not open for consideration. And that's understandable to me. But if you're inclined, please click on the link. It's a short example of modern scholarship by a qualified Hebrew scholar.

Actually I said no such thing I only provided the scriptures showing that God's people were forbidden to seek heathen witches and those who have familiar Spirits in the bible. The scriptures shared with you in this OP have nothing to do with EGW. They are all scripture (bible) so your point here is not really relevant to our conversation. The OP is only provided to show what the bible teaches, what Jesus taught and the Apostles and what the old and new testament teaches on the state of the dead (sleep in the graves until the second coming) as shown on the first page of the OP here which is all scripture.

ChetSinger · Jun 15, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Actually I said no such thing I only provided the scriptures showing that God's people were forbidden to seek heathen witches and those who have familiar Spirits in the bible. The scriptures shared with you in this OP have nothing to do with EGW. They are all scripture so your point here is not really relevant to our conversation. The OP is only provided to show what the bible teaches, what Jesus taught and the Apostles and what the old and new testament teaches on the state of the dead.

But the bible doesn't say that Saul heard from an evil spirit. It names the speaker as Samuel, right there in verses 15 through 19. How much more obvious can it be? But, there's that denominational theology that insists something else must be going on, regardless of the plain meaning of the text. Isn't that a big reason we have so many denominations? We all agree on the same Bible, but interpret the same text in different ways.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2021

ChetSinger said:
But the bible doesn't say that Saul heard from an evil spirit. It names the speaker as Samuel, right there in verses 15 through 19. How much more obvious can it be? But, there's that denominational theology that insists something else must be going on, regardless of the plain meaning of the text. Isn't that a big reason we have so many denominations? We all agree on the same Bible, but interpret the same text in different ways.

Actually that is not true the Spirit of the Lord departed Saul because of His sins and an evil Spirit was left with him. Here is the scripture you said did not exist here...

1 Samuel 16:14 [14], But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. When Saul went to inquire from the Lord, God would not answer him *1 Samuel 28:5-6 [5], And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. [6], And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

Your disregarding scripture contexts. What makes you now think God now wanted to answer Saul by using the witch of Endor that God commanded his people not to use in the old testament scriptures in Leviticus 19? Your argument here is not biblical or does it make sense according to the scriptures.

Gundy22 · Jun 15, 2021

1Sa 28:15

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

1Sa 28:16

Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

1Sa 28:17

And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

1Sa 28:18

Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

1Sa 28:19

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2021

Gundy22 said:
1Sa 28:15

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

1Sa 28:16

Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

1Sa 28:17

And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

1Sa 28:18

Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

1Sa 28:19

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Yes thank you I know the scripture please see the post above yours in post # 58 linked that you missed. Are you trying to argue that God prefers to use witches to answer prayer now after he forbids us not to in the scriptures? For me that teaching is not biblical.

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

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