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THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

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Davy

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That may be an all and well promotion for certain denominations who don't always stay with what's written in God's Word, but soul sleep is an old Jewish superstitious belief, which that is where that false idea originated. What seems to be a new belief among certain Jews today is the false idea that the soul is dead when the flesh is dead. That idea is actually a falsehood pushed by Satan and his servants.
 
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Davy

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That Eccl.9 verse is a favorite of the soul sleep crowd. A simple reading of that reveals that it's about those who perish in the lake of fire, without Christ. Who else would this apply to, "for the memory of them is forgotten", and "neither have they any more a reward", than the unsaved who perish in the future lake of fire?

To not understand how our spirit with soul continues after flesh death means one is NOT heeding the New Testament Scriptures, because the NT reveals life and consciousness after flesh death. So those stuck on the soul sleep idea show they follow the Old Testament ideas of the religion of the Jews about this subject.
 
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Davy

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That's Old Testament Jew reasoning that the Pharisees believed, and is still taught by orthodox Judaism. It is not Christianity. And it's very... easy to reveal it as fallacy.

For example:

In John 3, Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be "born again" to enter into the Kingdom of God. In the Greek, "born again" means 'born from above'. And that is the theme Lord Jesus is teaching there, that our spirit must be born from above by God's Spirit. That begs the question then...

If our spirit is just some force that returns to God at flesh death, like a drop of water out of the Great Ocean (i.e., symbolic of God), and at flesh death that spirit is absorbed back into God, then it would literally mean 'we' no longer exist, period. There would be no memory of our previous existence even! It's really a stupid idea, and one easily seen as coming from someone like Satan himself.

Our 'spirit' inside us is what is "born again" in Jesus Christ. And it continues past flesh death...

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I do not believe in soul sleep. According to the scriptures the body returns to the dust and the Spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it. Most of us, wait in the grave until the resurrection at the second coming.
 
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Butch5

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Jesus didn't say anything about the soul continuing after death. He said don't fear those who are not able to kill the soul. If the soul continues after death then please explain how Jesus' soul died.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:12 KJV)

Jesus poured out His soul to death. I think you should reconsider your understanding of Matt 10:28

If you look at 1 Peter 3 it's pretty clear that Jesus made a proclamation to spirits after He was raised from the dead. They were spirits, not people. He didn't preach the gospel to them, He proclaimed His authority over them, they were spirits, like angels and demons.

You're also misunderstanding 2 Cor. 5. It's about the resurrection, not about being alive after death.

The soul isn't asleep when one dies, it ceases to exist. When the dead are said to be asleep it is a metaphor, a figure of speech. They are not sleeping, they are dead.
 
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Butch5

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Firstly, that passage is the word of God. Are you trying to refute the word of God?

Jesus didn't say anything about "our" spirit being born again. He told Nicodemus he had to be born again. Jesus said Nicodemus had to be born of water and the Spirit. There's nothing there about Nicodemus' spirit.

The "our" spirit is the breath of life from God. It is something of God, not man. Man is not a spirit.
 
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BNR32FAN

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How does this all make sense in comparison to Lazarus, Abraham, and the rich man? None of them appeared to be sleeping.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That doesn’t mean Jesus’ soul died it means that His soul was released from His body when He died. After He died He went and preached to Spirits who were imprisoned.
 
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BNR32FAN

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LoveGodsWord said:
Hi newlightseven, nice to meet you. Your view here is what mainstream Christianity teaches but as you can see in the posts and in the scriptures in these posts above yours this teaching is not biblical according to the scriptures.
Click to expand...

You really should’ve included a table of contents in that OP
 
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Butch5

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BNR32FAN said:
That doesn’t mean Jesus’ soul died it means that His soul was released from His body when He died. After He died He went and preached to Spirits who were imprisoned.
Click to expand...
You might want to read it again. He poured out His soul to death. It means what it says. It may not fit what you believe, but it means what it says.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Butch5 said:
You might want to read it again. He poured out His soul to death. It means what it says. It may not fit what you believe, but it means what it says.
Click to expand...

So then His soul was dead for 3 days?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Butch5 said:
From the time He died on the cross until He was resurrected.
Click to expand...

1 Peter 3:18 says He died in the flesh but was made alive in the Spirit.

“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Butch5

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BNR32FAN said:
So how did He go and preach to the Spirits in prison during this time?
Click to expand...
He didn't. The proclamation was made after He was raised from the dead.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 KJV)

Notice He was put to death, then raised, he then went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison.
Notice too, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to Him. That was the proclamation.
 
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Butch5

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It's not in the spirit. If you want to look at it here's a link to an Interlinear Greek English Bible. Just scroll down to verse 18.

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1pe3.pdf

It's by the Spirit that God raised Christ from the dead.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

We can see from Paul that God used the Holy Spirit or breath, to raise up Jesus. It will be the same with people later.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It’s hard to say because G1161 doesn’t typically translate to “in” or “by” so Romans 8 could be referring to the resurrection of His body not necessarily His Spirit. I don’t see any verses that imply that His Spirit actually died. The gospel accounts say that He gave up His Spirit or yielded His Spirit.

“And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:50‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:46‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭19:30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hebrews 10:10 says that we were sanctified in the death of His body and even 1 Peter 3:18-19 says that He died in the flesh.

“By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So I’m not seeing any sufficient evidence that Jesus’ Spirit actually died. The only mention of spirits actually dying that I’m aware of is after Judgement day when they are thrown into the lake of fire. Jesus’ deity is Spirit so if His Spirit died that would mean that He ceased to be for 3 days and I don’t think that would be possible for God.
 
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Butch5

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I would submit that Romans 8 is referring to the body. The Greek word used there is "dia" it's usually translate through as in agency. In other words, it's the instrument that something is accomplished by. For instance, if I said I bought my tickets through a broker, I'm indicating that the broker was the instrument by which I acquired the tickets. Paul said that it's the spirit through which Christ was raised. In other words, God raised Christ by means of the Spirit.

But, it's not spirit it's soul that is at issue. Isaiah 53 says He gave up His soul unto death. But, this is a discussion that may involve the Trinity which is not what this thread is about. We're talking about the average guy and what happens to him. I've studied the word soul and it's usage through the Bible and it can be seen to mean the whole person. We are told in Gen 2:7 what a soul consists of.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

We're told here that God created man from the dust of the earth then breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. From this we learn a few things. One, we learn that man consists of the dust of the earth or the elements of the earth. We also learn that a soul consists of two parts, the man (body) and the breath of life from God (God). The NKJ translate this, and the man became a living being. That's actually a great definition of the word soul. The word soul is used two ways in Scripture. It's used in a concrete sense, of a living being. And, it's used in an abstract sense of life itself. We see that the spirit is something that comes out of God. So we have two components that come together to form something new. If a soul is the combination of the man (body) and the breath or spirit of life from God, what happens when those two components separate? If God retrieves that breath or spirit what happens to the soul? I think it's pretty clear that it would cease to exist as it's components are no longer together. We're told that when the breath or spirit separates from the body, that it returns to God. We're also told that the man (body) returns to the dust. Where does that leave us? If the soul has ceased to exist, the breath or spirit of life has returned to God, and the man (body) has returned to the dust what is left to live on after death? Nothing. There is nothing left.

We've seen what man consists of, the elements of the earth. God Himself confirms this, He said to Adam,

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

He told Adam that he was dust and would return to dust. A lot of Christians believe that man is more than dust. That he is a soul and/or spirit that lives on after the body dies. If that were the case then God should have said, for a spirit or soul you are. He didn't say that. He said for dust you are. The word "you" indicates person. He was talking to the person of Adam.

But, what do those elements form? God plainly tells us that also.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen. 6:3 KJV)

Man is flesh. We have it straight from God. So those elements are flesh. So again, we come to the question, if the soul ceases, the breath or spirit of life returns to God, and the man( body, flesh) returns to the dust, what remains to live on?
 
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NotreDame

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You’ve misunderstood the Scriptures. Jude does not support anything you’ve said. There’s nothing in Jude supporting your idea Moses was already resurrected. And no person can Biblically have experienced resurrection before Christ. Christ as the first to be resurrected is in the Bible and expresses his primacy over death, the First to defeat death.

Second, Paul’s writings are inconsistent with your notion of some unconscious stage after death.

“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 but we are of good courage and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:6-8

“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;” Philippians, 1:21-23.

Paul isn’t discussing a departure from the body to a stage of unconsciousness. Paul is unequivocal, leaving the body is to be with the Lord.

And as long as your view continues to teach a doctrine inconsistent with the writings of Paul above, I will post a reply arguing why your doctrine is not sound Biblically. Your view is inconsistent with Paul’s writings.

Second, “Abraham’s Bosom” was a phrase in common usage among the Jews in Palestine and in Judaism before and during the time of Jesus. “Abraham’s Bosom” appears in the Talmud, and is a reference to where to righteous dead proceed after death.

This is consistent with the development of Sheol during the second temple period as being the place for the unrighteous dead.

Your view is inconsistent with Paul’s writings, lack factual support, and the verses you cite for support do not explicitly or imply a state of unconsciousness after death.
 
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NotreDame

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I’m not misunderstanding those verses. I am taking a plain text reading and understanding of those verses.

Those verses very plainly say Moses was present on the mountain with Jesus. That’s your problem because Moses on the mountain with Jesus is inconsistent with your theory. And you’ll need more than a mere proclamation the verse isn’t to be understood by a plain text meaning.

You didn't answer my question. Is there a reason?
Click to expand...

Yes, the reason is an answer is irrelevant. A particular theory X may be shown to be false by some fact. While the fact that falsified a theory cannot at the moment be adequately explained doesn’t mean the theory X isn’t falsified.

So, to use Popper Falsification, one counterfactual shows a theory is false. All swans are white. The observance of a black swan eatablishes the statement false. Now, it may not be understood how a black swan came to exist at the time but the existence of the black swan disproves the statement.

Same here. I do not have to understand or have an answer. The fact is Moses on the mountain top with Jesus disproves a state of unconsciousness after death.


There’s no showing my reading of the plain text is incorrect. None.


The plain text says Moses was walking with Jesus. In fact, Moses was talking to Jesus about Jesus’ departure from Jerusalem. There’s nothing in the text to indicate Moses wasn’t there.
 
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