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The True Sabbath day.

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Symes

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mythbuster said:
Hebrews 4:1-11 shows that we should be diligent to enter His rest, and even have entered into His rest by believing. So for me at least this shows that the New Testament rest is more than the Old Testament rule keeping of the Sabbath. Also in Hebrews 9 we see the difference between the old ways and the new ways, where for sure we must agree that Christ is the NT reality of the OT priesthood.
That does not say anything about a change from Sabbath to Sunday worship.
 
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Symes

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snoopyloopysk8a said:
No, the Sabbath was never changed from Saturday to Sunday. The Sabbath is still Saturday, and always will be. The Sabbath was one of the two institutions in the Garden of Eden at the end of Creation Week, marriage being the other one.
The devil is doing his best to destroy both.

God has promised that the devil will not be successfull.
 
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The Thadman

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mythbuster said:
Line 1: Yes

Two carraige returns later. Yes we do not not work from Friday to Saturday night forever.

Excellent! :)

ASIDE: I was asked this Sabbath question on my last trip to Israel.
Is it OK to move a table on the Sabbath? Well it depends, if the table is on dirt then it would be considered a plow.

:D What verse in the Torah says that? It's a Rabbinic tradition, plain, simple and unBiblical. :)

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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The Thadman

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Now, seeing that the Sabbath is still in effect, on to the day of worship:

The feasts and celebrations are outlined in Leviticus 23 and 24. At the beginning of 23 we see:

Leviticus 23
1 YHWH spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and tell them, ‘The set feasts of YHWH, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my set feasts:
3 “‘Six days shall work be done: but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; you shall do no manner of work. It is a Sabbath to YHWH in all your dwellings.

Every Sabbath is a feast to YHWH that entails a "holy convocation" (as WEB describes it): in other words God ordained WORSHIP! (on Friday into Saturday not Sunday) :)

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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Brother Owl

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Deu 5:14
But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ***, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15
And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

It is my conclusion that keeping the Sabbath is for Israel as a remembrance of what He did for Israel in delivering them from Egypt as the above text says.

There is of course nothing wrong with keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest and worship. But it is wrong to teach this commandment carries over and or is taught as a doctrine of the New Covenant. For it is not once mentioned in the NT as part of the teaching of the apostles.
 
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The Thadman

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Brother Owl said:
It is my conclusion that keeping the Sabbath is for Israel as a remembrance of what He did for Israel in delivering them from Egypt as the above text says.

There is of course nothing wrong with keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest and worship. But it is wrong to teach this commandment carries over and or is taught as a doctrine of the New Covenant. For it is not once mentioned in the NT as part of the teaching of the apostles.

Then you need to harmonize the first 3/4ths of Isaiah 56. Anyone who has joined themselves to YHWH is expected to keep the Sabbath (and all that it entails) among other things:

Isaiah 56
1 Thus says YHWH, Keep you justice, and do righteousness; for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast; who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the foreigner, who has joined himself to YHWH ((That's us!)), speak, saying, "YHWH will surely separate me from his people!"; neither let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree!" 4 For thus says YHWH of the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast my covenant: 5 To them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the foreigners who join themselves to YHWH ((That's us!)), to minister to him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant; 7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. 8 The Lord YHWH, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, Yet will I gather others to him, besides his own who are gathered.

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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Brother Owl

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The old covenant was out tutor we now have a better covenant which nowhere teaches that we are to keep a Seventh Day Sabbath. As I said before there is certainly nothing wrong with doing so and it may well have its benefits as in my opinion following old testament dietary restrictions are beneficial however, no longer mandatory for those walking in the liberty of Christ.

If you follow the law you must keep the whole law, we are not under the law but under Grace and under Christ who is the Word dwelling in us and the law we now follow is the law written on our hearts and not those written on tables of stone.
 
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The Thadman

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Brother Owl said:
The old covenant was out tutor we now have a better covenant which nowhere teaches that we are to keep a Seventh Day Sabbath. As I said before there is certainly nothing wrong with doing so and it may well have its benefits as in my opinion following old testament dietary restrictions are beneficial however, no longer mandatory for those walking in the liberty of Christ.

Jesus himself said that he came not to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill it (i.e teach and practice it to it's fullest).

Has he come back on the clouds in glory where all could see?

Is he reigning over the earth in the Messianic Kingdom?

Is death no more?

Not all things are accomplished; therefore, the Torah is still in effect. Every jot and tittle of it. :)

If we follow Jesus and be imitators of him perfectly, then we would be following the Torah perfectly.

If you follow the law you must keep the whole law, we are not under the law but under Grace and under Christ who is the Word dwelling in us and the law we now follow is the law written on our hearts and not those written on tables of stone.

Ok, do you love your neighbor as yourself?

Do you honor your mother and father?

Do you NOT commit adultery?

Then you're following the Torah, and with what you've just said you must keep it all. Jesus taught Torah. Nothing he said was new. If you follow what he taught, you're under the Law. :)

Grace was always there, this is not some newfangled NT idea. God gives his grace freely so that we may walk in his will, but we are expected to keep his will: His commandments. It's like what Paul said: Should we sin so that grace may abound? May it never be! :) With grace, God gives us the benefit of the doubt. We should give him ours.

If the Torah was truly written on our hearts now we would not sin. That couldn't be farther from the truth. :)

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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Brother Owl

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2Cr 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2Cr 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:

2Cr 3:8
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2Cr 3:9
For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

2Cr 3:10
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

2Cr 3:11
For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

2Cr 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2Cr 3:13
And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Cr 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

2Cr 3:15
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Cr 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2Cr 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

Please read the above text: Paul clearly says the old covenant including the commandments written in stone were part of the ministration of death:

2Cr 3:7 "But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:"

The old covenant was the MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION and the new covenant is the MINISTRATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS

The old is DONE AWAY the new REMAINS
 
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The Thadman

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Brother Owl said:
2Cr 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2Cr 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:

2Cr 3:8
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2Cr 3:9
For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

2Cr 3:10
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

2Cr 3:11
For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

2Cr 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2Cr 3:13
And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Cr 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

2Cr 3:15
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Cr 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2Cr 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

Please read the above text: Paul clearly says the old covenant including the commandments written in stone were part of the ministration of death:

2Cr 3:7 "But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:"

The old covenant was the MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION and the new covenant is the MINISTRATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS

The old is DONE AWAY the new REMAINS

~Head in hands~ If it is possible to take Paul's Jewish rhetoric out of its proper context then it'll seem like Paul was an antnomian homosexual who made a distinct break with Judaism and someone who hated women. Instead we need to see Paul as a Pharisee raised by Gamiliel which is who he WAS. :) In the first chapter we see a good example of this:

2nd Corinthians 1
17 When I therefore was thus determined, did I show fickleness? Or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be the “Yes, yes” and the “No, no?” 18 But as God is faithful, our word toward you was not “Yes and no.” 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, by me, Silvanus, and Timothy, was not “Yes and no,” but in him is “Yes.” 20 For however many are the promises of God, in him is the “Yes.” Therefore also through him is the “Amen,” to the glory of God through us.
21 Now he who establishes us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God; 22 who also sealed us, and gave us the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts. 23 But I call God for a witness to my soul, that I didn’t come to Corinth to spare you. 24 Not that we have lordship over your faith, but are fellow workers with you for your joy. For you stand firm in faith.

We can also see later on in chapter 6:

2nd Corinthians 6[/b]
14 Don’t be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity (grk. /anomia/ "without or against THE LAW (OF MOSES)")? Or what communion has light with darkness? 15 What agreement has Christ with Belial? Or what portion has a believer with an unbeliever?

Anomia we could safely call "torahlessness," and we know that it is the opposite of righteousness. What did Jesus say about righteousness and iniquity?

Matthew 5
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 7
21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity

Furthermore, if the "old law" was done away with, why did Paul make sacrifices in the Temple in Acts?

Why did he call the Torah "holy, righteous and good" if it is this "law of death"?

Why did he agree with Jesus' arguments on ritual cleanliness?

Simple: He taught Torah.


You still have yet to address the fact that Jesus is not reigning in the Messianic Kingdom, and by what -Jesus- said the Torah has not passed away.

Second, you still have not addressed the issue that if you follow some of the Torah you must follow all of it, and you most certainly follow some of it :)

Third, It could be cool if you were to find a teaching of Jesus that does not come from the Torah.

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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Brother Owl

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A few more things to ponder.

Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Eph 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

It seems clear to me that Jesus did what he said he came to do: which is to fullfill the law which he also took to the cross.

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

It is clear the new covenant contains elements of the old but it is NEW and no longer the same. Thank God, because under the old we were all condemned and without hope, for even under the old the only hope was is Christ who made all things new!

It's 1:47 am where I am so Good Night!

One parting word: If you are convinced keeping Shabbot is the thing to do please do so. But be honest, there is good reason to believe that doing so is no longer necessary even if you've concluded it is. I can see why people keep Sabbath, though I disagree with their conclusions — some of these people I know would die rather than depart from serving Jesus, that more than anything is what I respect in a person: A Love for God which extends and shows itself in the epistle of their life. Their is room for us to disagree on these issues but Love is not an option if we don't walk in Love we don't walk with God!
 
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Brother Owl

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I'm not going to respond to your every point: I think your conclusions are incorrect. It seems to me that if we're still under the law then the whole law still applies and we ought to put to death all those who break the Sabbath who are in the congregation of God.

God's Holy Angels ministered death yet they are still Holy.

Paul said when I was with the lawless I lived as one without the law and when I was with Jews I lived like a Jew... this from memory.

And I never drew any conclusion re: Paul other than he was an Apostle to the gentiles and a great man of God. I never thought he was homosexual, or a woman hater, or any of the other things you brought up, it never crossed my mind once till you said. And having heard it, it sounds absurd.

If there is no New Covenant than all we have is the law and the prophets. But drawing from the New Covenant we can not create a doctrine of keeping Sabbath.

I'll try to respond more later today but may not have time, we're having "open house" (house for sale) today. Anyone in the market?

God Bless You!
 
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The Thadman

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Brother Owl said:
I'm not going to respond to your every point: I think your conclusions are incorrect. It seems to me that if we're still under the law then the whole law still applies and we ought to put to death all those who break the Sabbath who are in the congregation of God.

What would you do if this were true? :)

God's Holy Angels ministered death yet they are still Holy.

So you're telling me that God had no means of salvation to the entire OT populace, this "ministry of death"? Or was a Paul illustrating point like at the beginning of the book?

Paul said when I was with the lawless I lived AS one without the law and when I was with Jews I lived like a Jew... this from memory.

You said it. "Like" and "as". Paul kept Torah and taught against Oral Traditions. He was not a two-timer or a hypocrite.

And I never drew any conclusion re: Paul other than he was an Apostle to the gentiles and a great man of God. I never thought he was homosexual, or a woman hater, or any of the other things you brought up, it never crossed my mind once till you said. And having heard it, it sounds absurd.

Sorry for my ambiguity :) It was an example of what other people have done, removing Paul's words from the context of Jewish Rhetoric.

If there is no New Covenant than all we have is the law and the prophets. But drawing from the New Covenant we can not create a doctrine of keeping Sabbath.

Of course we do :) Jesus's many debates with the Pharisees on what constitutes work on the Sabbath. His (and Paul's) sayings on righteousness (following Torah) and iniquity (Torahlessness) and many others.

And looking at the OT description of this "New" Covenant (or should I say RE-Newed Covenant) it doesn't match up with the belief that we're exempt from Torah, and from Jesus words, himself, not on Jot or Tittle has left the Law yet (unless the events of Revelation happened when we weren't looking).

I'll try to respond more later today but may not have time, we're having "open house" (house for sale) today. Anyone in the market?

God Bless You!

Unfortunately, not for another few years. Good luck though! :)

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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mythbuster

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mythbuster said:
Line 1: Yes

Two carraige returns later. Yes we do not not work from Friday to Saturday night forever.

shalom
Mr Thadster: Sorry I was not more clear but please note the double negative. In other words to not not work is to work, sorry. I do not keep the OT law.
 
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Brother Owl

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The Thadman said:
Then you need to harmonize the first 3/4ths of Isaiah 56. Anyone who has joined themselves to YHWH is expected to keep the Sabbath (and all that it entails) among other things:



Peace!
-Steve-o

Isaiah was speaking to Israel and yes all those who joined Israel converted to Judaism, this was during the Old Covenant and keeping the Sabbath was still enforce along with the penalty of death for violation of the Sabbath.

This does not address the point I tried to bring up which is God said the Jews were to keep the Sabbath as a remembrance of the work that He did in delivering them from Egypt. My reason for this point was to illustrate it was unique to the Jew and of course all those who converted to Judaism during the Old Covenant period.

Read the following:

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

By reading the above text we see that breaking the commandment of honoring your father and mother was punishable by death which punishment was also the commandment of God. In the New Covenant we are not bound to kill those who break this law and clearly to kill those who broke this law was also a commandment. If we are still under the law then we need to mete out punishment according to the dictates of the law. But we see that Jesus changed the law:

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

We are no longer to enforce the punishments required of the law: these punishments were also part of the commandments. If we are still under the law then we also must mete out the required punishments if we do not we are BREAKING THE LAW for the Old Covenant REQUIRED IT.
 
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Symes

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Brother Owl said:
Isaiah was speaking to Israel and yes all those who joined Israel converted to Judaism, this was during the Old Covenant and keeping the Sabbath was still enforce along with the penalty of death for violation of the Sabbath.

This does not address the point I tried to bring up which is God said the Jews were to keep the Sabbath as a remembrance of the work that He did in delivering them from Egypt. My reason for this point was to illustrate it was unique to the Jew and of course all those who converted to Judaism during the Old Covenant period.

Read the following:

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

By reading the above text we see that breaking the commandment of honoring your father and mother was punishable by death which punishment was also the commandment of God. In the New Covenant we are not bound to kill those who break this law and clearly to kill those who broke this law was also a commandment. If we are still under the law then we need to mete out punishment according to the dictates of the law. But we see that Jesus changed the law:

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

We are no longer to enforce the punishments required of the law: these punishments were also part of the commandments. If we are still under the law then we also must mete out the required punishments if we do not we are BREAKING THE LAW for the Old Covenant REQUIRED IT.
No, the Sabbath was not given for the Children of Israel for them to remember their dliverance from bondage (Egypt). The Passover was given to them to remember how God delivered them from Egypt.
 
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Brother Owl

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Symes said:
No, the Sabbath was not given for the Children of Israel for them to remember their dliverance from bondage (Egypt). The Passover was given to them to remember how God delivered them from Egypt.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

The above text says otherwise, does it not?

God Bless!
 
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Symes

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Brother Owl said:
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

The above text says otherwise, does it not?

God Bless!
The Sabbath was given at Creation, a long time before Egypt.

They were in Egypt for 400 years and had forgotten the Sabbath. They needed to be reminded of it when they came out.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham kept God's commandments, His statutes, and laws.

Today if we belong to Christ then we also must do as Abraham did. That is to keep "my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not;..."
 
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The Thadman

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mythbuster said:
Mr Thadster: Sorry I was not more clear but please note the double negative. In other words to not not work is to work, sorry. I do not keep the OT law.

In that case I withdraw my "Excellent!" and replace it with a "Then why did Jesus tell us to follow the Torah?" :)

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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The Thadman

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Brother Owl said:
Isaiah was speaking to Israel and yes all those who joined Israel converted to Judaism, this was during the Old Covenant and keeping the Sabbath was still enforce along with the penalty of death for violation of the Sabbath.

Note what it says in Isaiah 56: "The foreigner who joins himself to YHWH". Does this say "The foreigner who converts?" NO. This says ANYONE who ministers to him, serves him, or worships him.

DO you worship YHWH?

If yes, then you should be following the Sabbath and the rest of the Torah. You can't pick and choose :)

This does not address the point I tried to bring up which is God said the Jews were to keep the Sabbath as a remembrance of the work that He did in delivering them from Egypt. My reason for this point was to illustrate it was unique to the Jew and of course all those who converted to Judaism during the Old Covenant period.

See what Symes said. The Sabbath has been around from the beginning.

Read the following:

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

CONTEXT! :) What was Jesus saying in this passage? He was rebuking the Pharisees for going beyond the Torah with their extra restrictions on Qurban offerings.

On the contrary! He was enforcing the death penalty in Torah, as under these extra restrictions, a man under Pharisaic qurban could Biblically dishonor his father and mother and would NOT be put to death for it. :)

By reading the above text we see that breaking the commandment of honoring your father and mother was punishable by death which punishment was also the commandment of God. In the New Covenant we are not bound to kill those who break this law and clearly to kill those who broke this law was also a commandment. If we are still under the law then we need to mete out punishment according to the dictates of the law. But we see that Jesus changed the law:

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

How does this "change" the Torah? The teaching is the same. I can't see how you can claim this, ESPECIALLY when Jesus said that he was not going to change anything? ONE jot or tittle will in NO ways pass from the Torah.

Do you know the significance of hitting someone on the right cheek in middle-eastern culture? :)

Additionally, did you not notice the rest of the "you have heard... but I say" phrases had to do with the Oral Law? This one is no different.

We are no longer to enforce the punishments required of the law: these punishments were also part of the commandments. If we are still under the law then we also must mete out the required punishments if we do not we are BREAKING THE LAW for the Old Covenant REQUIRED IT.

Jesus, himself, had people mete out the punishments under the Torah. He told lepers to make sacrifices in the Temple, and Paul made sacrifices in the Temple for the Nazarites in Acts after Jesus died (rather interestingly some of them being sin offerings). If Paul knew that Jesus abolished the OT Law (which Jesus SPECIFICALLY said he didn't) he wouldn't have made sacrifices.

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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