The True Sabbath day.

[Harry the Heretic]

Amen brother.

 

[The Thadman]

He always taught faith, and Christ as the fullfilment of the law.

Quick question: By "as the fulfillment" do you mean an antinomian fulfillment, or how it is used within Jewish rhetoric?

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Harry the Heretic]

I am unfamiliar with "antinomian fulfillment". I'll look into it an let you know tomorrow. (I'm putting 5 children to bed ,the last 2 are giving me trouble).

If it is saying that it is "anti" Law, based upon the prefix, or total freedom, I am not antinomian. I'll get back to you on that one though.

Peace to you

 

[Symes]

FYI - The above referenced book is SDA literature

All the material for his book was teken from the Roman Catholic University in Rome. It was the Pope who gave him a medal for the book when it was written.

It is not SDA literatur at all, if anything it is Roman Catholic literature. The info was found in Rome at their University.

 

[Symes]

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
(Acts 20:7)

The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
(2 Timothy 1:16-18)

Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
(2 Maccabees 12:40-42)



And St. Justin Martyr c 140 AD speaks of that which was taught by the Apostles:

CHAP. LXVI.--OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us E<greek>ukaristia</greek>(5) [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.(6) For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me,(7) this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAP. LXVII.--WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,(1) all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,(2) and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,(3) and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

The text you used had nothing to do with the change of the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

The meeting that Paul held was on Saturday night.

There are many times in the book of Acts where they had Sabbath worship.


I will list just a few, not one indicate that the sabbath has been done away with

 

[Symes]

There are 55 times the word Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament.

Here are some.
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:

Jesus is saying that to pray about fleeing so it will not be on the Sabbath. He was talking about the 7th day, He was speaking to Jews, they knew what He meant.

The event took place over 40 years after it was spoken. Jesus was saying the Sabbath would still be there then.


Mark 6:2 And when the Sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Mark 16:1 And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

The following show us that there is nothing in Acts to say that the sabbath had been done away with.

Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and sat down.

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read ° every Sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next Sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

Acts 16:13 And on the Sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and ° three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue ° every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

 

[Harry the Heretic]

Quick question: By "as the fulfillment" do you mean an antinomian fulfillment, or how it is used within Jewish rhetoric?

Peace!
-Steve-o

Deffinetly not antinomian. We keep the Sabbath today by resting from our works, and allowing the Lord to work through us, thus fullfilling the law in a way that exceeds the "righeousness of the scribes and the pharisees", and "praying without ceasing" keeping Christ always before us in constant contemplation, and in all that we do, doing it for the Lord.

 

[The Thadman]

Deffinetly not antinomian. We keep the Sabbath today by resting from our works, and allowing the Lord to work through us, thus fullfilling the law in a way that exceeds the "righeousness of the scribes and the pharisees", and "praying without ceasing" keeping Christ always before us in constant contemplation, and in all that we do, doing it for the Lord.

So, just so that I know if I'm on the same page, you believe that we should keep the Sabbath from Friday night to Saturday night, as Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, Paul, and the early Apostles did?

(Just fyi, "righteousness" is the fulfilling/proper following of the Torah as Paul used it, and how it is used in the rest of Jewish rhetoric. )

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Symes]

So, just so that I know if I'm on the same page, you believe that we should keep the Sabbath from Friday night to Saturday night, as Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, Paul, and the early Apostles did?

Sure do, even though it was not meant for me to reply. I feel the Sabbath is very important for everyone.

Symes

 

[Veritas]

Some sane and objective information on the Sabbath from the Early Church Father's, some of whom learned at the feet of the Apostles themselves. ALL in the early Church worshipped on Sunday, the first day of the week in observance of the Resurrection and the practice described in scripture (and long before Constantine). I feel this is necessary to counter all of the anti-Catholic SDA propaganda put forth in the previous links provided.http://www.catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp

 

[Harry the Heretic]

So, just so that I know if I'm on the same page, you believe that we should keep the Sabbath from Friday night to Saturday night, as Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, Paul, and the early Apostles did?

(Just fyi, "righteousness" is the fulfilling/proper following of the Torah as Paul used it, and how it is used in the rest of Jewish rhetoric. )

Peace!
-Steve-o

I do not believe myself as having to keep the Sabbath in that way. James said I should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, things strangled and blood, and fornication. But because Christ followed the Law and was guiltless he imparts that righteousness unto me and I am called to a higher Law, in a sense.

ie, the law of adlutry (7th commandment) for me is also not to lust. My circumsission is one of the heart. God speaks of this new covenant in Jeremiah saying I will right my law in their hearts.

The Sabbath is (and there were many different kinds in Leviticus, even Sabbath years) a state of rest, me resting from my works for the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, a situation of always offering up spiritual sacrifices, not just certain days of the year. Not as is mentioned in Amos where the people wanted the new moon and Sabbath to passs so that they could return to robbing the poor. So I am not lawless, but I am not bound by the Mosaic law but being a temple of the Lord have Christ dwelling in me, who writes God's Law in my heart, and manifests it through me. Hope that makes sense.


God Bless

 

[Symes]

I do not believe myself as having to keep the Sabbath in that way. James said I should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, things strangled and blood, and fornication. But because Christ followed the Law and was guiltless he imparts that righteousness unto me and I am called to a higher Law, in a sense.

ie, the law of adlutry (7th commandment) for me is also not to lust. My circumsission is one of the heart. God speaks of this new covenant in Jeremiah saying I will right my law in their hearts.

The Sabbath is (and there were many different kinds in Leviticus, even Sabbath years) a state of rest, me resting from my works for the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, a situation of always offering up spiritual sacrifices, not just certain days of the year. Not as is mentioned in Amos where the people wanted the new moon and Sabbath to passs so that they could return to robbing the poor. So I am not lawless, but I am not bound by the Mosaic law but being a temple of the Lord have Christ dwelling in me, who writes God's Law in my heart, and manifests it through me. Hope that makes sense.


God Bless

It does make a ceratin amount of sense but I am sure that God wants us to keep the 7th day Sabbath today.

The 7th day Sabbath has never been done away with.

 

[muffler dragon]

Dear Harry:

I just wanted to point out on small problem with your premise above. You make the following statement:

God speaks of this new covenant in Jeremiah saying I will right my law in their hearts.

If you don't mind, I think it might be wise if we look at the Scripture.
Jeremiah 31:
A New Covenant

27 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will (69) sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast.
28 "As I have (70) watched over them to (71) pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to (72) build and to plant," declares the LORD.
29
"In those days they will not say again,
'(73) The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children's teeth are set on edge.'
30 "But (74) everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
31 "(75) Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a (76) new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the (77) covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I (78) took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My (79) covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33 "But (80) this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "(81) I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and (82) I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will (83) not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all (84) know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will (85) forgive their iniquity, and their (86) sin I will remember no more."
35
Thus says the LORD,
Who (87) gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who (88) stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
(89) The LORD of hosts is His name:
36
"(90) If this fixed order departs
From before Me," declares the LORD,
"Then the offspring of Israel also will (91) cease
From being a nation before Me forever."
37 Thus says the LORD,
"(92) If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also (93) cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done," declares the LORD.
38 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the (94) city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the (95) Tower of Hananel to the (96) Corner Gate.
39 "The (97) measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 "And (98) the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook (99) Kidron, to the corner of the (100) Horse Gate toward the east, shall be (101) holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."

As you might see from what I have bolded and italicized above, this Scripture deals only with Israel (not foreigner or gentile). These two entities still hold true to the Sabbath.
I only bring this up, because you might want to find some other amount of Scripture to support your claim.

Take care,

m.d.

 

[Harry the Heretic]

Hi MD,

Thx for the advice. here is the concept as explained to gentiles.

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But also Paul has stated in Romans and Ephesians of the "mystery" whereby I, as a gentile, am made nigh by the blood of Christ, and by faith, a spiritual descendant of Abraham being grafted on to the recipients of the promises, by which I am a partaker of the promises, "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets".
So I believe that the words of Jeremiah apply to me having been included in the "election" by faith in Christ.

My intention is not to invalidate the the Law and the Prophets but the opposite, to show how they are a witness and a testimony to the Lord and reside in the "fullness" of Christ. I also do not wish to take the liberty that I have in our Lord and bind it upon others, but to show the consistency of God by refuting that he had "moved" the Sabbath to Sunday.

God bless

 

[Symes]

My intention is not to invalidate the the Law and the Prophets but the opposite, to show how they are a witness and a testimony to the Lord and reside in the "fullness" of Christ. I also do not wish to take the liberty that I have in our Lord and bind it upon others, but to show the consistency of God by refuting that he had "moved" the Sabbath to Sunday

If you believe that then you need to show me from Scripture where the move has been made.

This Sabbath issue is of great importance today. Both sides cannot be right.

God made a commandment to keep the Sabbath. If that commandment has been done away with or changed then a similar command must be there in the New Testament for all to see.

Please show me such a command if it is there?

 

[Harry the Heretic]

If you believe that then you need to show me from Scripture where the move has been made.

This Sabbath issue is of great importance today. Both sides cannot be right.

God made a commandment to keep the Sabbath. If that commandment has been done away with or changed then a similar command must be there in the New Testament for all to see.

Please show me such a command if it is there?

Paul says that people will view things differently in Romans:
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

So I do not judge another man in this regard. I share my belief.

If the Lord spoke through Moses saying that the passover feast is a "feast by ordinance forever", do I ignore the passover, is it done away? No but the passover was a shadow of things to come, the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus.

How do I keep the passover, by faith in Christ.
How do I keep the Sabbath, by faith in Christ. (Heb 4:3, For we which believe do enter into his rest,...)

Colossians 2:
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath :
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

God bless

 

[The Thadman]

Paul says that people will view things differently in Romans:
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

This has nothing to do with celebrating the holidays, but what days to celebrate them on. The Saducees, Essenes and Pharisees had different systems of calculating the holidays found in the Bible and as a result celebrated them on different days, and in some cases, for different lengths of days.

Paul and the rest of the early Christians celebrated Hag HaMatzot, Succot, Yom Teruah, and the rest of the lot of them

So I do not judge another man in this regard. I share my belief.

If the Lord spoke through Moses saying that the passover feast is a "feast by ordinance forever", do I ignore the passover, is it done away? No but the passover was a shadow of things to come, the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus.

How do I keep the passover, by faith in Christ.

If you were to be doing it in faith in Christ, you would be following his example, no? He kept the Passover feast. So did Paul, and the rest of the early Christians. Paul made sacrifices in the Temple in Acts, specifically for the vows of a Nazarite, which included sin sacrifices.

Do you have lamb with matzah on the 15th of the Month of the Abib? If not, you're not keeping the Passover

The Passover, or Pasach, -was- the lamb that was eaten. To "keep the passover" is to actually have the feast, to which Christ was a metaphor, but (as we know from Levitical Law) was not literally EATEN.

How do I keep the Sabbath, by faith in Christ. (Heb 4:3, For we which believe do enter into his rest,...)

See above.

Colossians 2:
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath :
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

God bless

I can say right away that out axioms in interpreting that passage are polarized. Where you may see it as a way to avoid following the Torah as written, I see it as an exhortation to follow it as Moses did.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Harry the Heretic]

It seems that we have reached an impass. I leave you with one last quote from romans 3:29-31

"Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea we establish the law."

I guess we have differing views on the meaning of "establishing the law".

Peace to you

 

[The Thadman]

It seems that we have reached an impass. I leave you with one last quote from romans 3:29-31

"Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea we establish the law."

I guess we have differing views on the meaning of "establishing the law".

Peace to you

Then let me "part" with this issue with the words of Paul and Jesus in like fashion.

2nd Corinthians 6
14 Don’t be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity (grk "anomia" without or against the Law i.e of Moses, lit. "Torahlessness")? Or what communion has light with darkness? 15 What agreement has Christ with Belial? Or what portion has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has a temple of God with idols?

Matthew 5
17 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[mythbuster]

Christ is the reality of the Sabbath. We enter into His rest and enjoy Him everyday. He is the Sabbath, He is our rest. We labour to enter into rest, where Christ has accomplished everything for us.

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.