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Extraneous

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I believe I understand what you are trying to say. However I just want to clarify some things to make sure we are on the same page.



The scripture is not referring to literal "clothes" but rather not to leave yourself spiritually vulnerable. This is because nothing is hidden from God. Especially the nature of your heart. So vigilant in protecting your heart because in the end, one day your true nature will be exposed and when that day happens you want the nature of your heart to bring glory to God and not shame on yourself.



The "gold refined in fire" is obviously not referring to literal gold. Rather it is referring to works as described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 "13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.



Once again, compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience are not literal clothing but rather spiritual garments that will protect you from exposure to our spiritual enemy.



All text that I put in bold font are obviously "spiritual armor" to protect yourself from spiritual attacks from our spiritual enemy and not literal armor.

My point was that its more important to put on these spiritual clothes, rather than a Sunday suit. The Sunday Suit that people wear to church is just cleaning the outside of the cup, but these spiritual clothes are cleaning the inside.
 
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My point was that its more important to put on these spiritual clothes, rather than a Sunday suit. The Sunday Suit that people wear to church is just cleaning the outside of the cup, but these spiritual clothes are cleaning the inside.
I was sure that was what you meant. I just wanted to help clarify that for others.
 
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Albion

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So if the liturgical vestments closely represents the garb of the 1st century, which I am somewhat inclined to agree with, what's up with the procession, candles, censor and other things apparently borrowed from the levitical priesthood? It's interesting that the liturgical churches reject certain Jewish practices but embrace others.
I'd say that it's not a matter of perpetuating the idea of that OT priesthood, if that's what you're thinking.

As for why some Hebrew worship practices are retained while new practices or rituals based upon the NT are added, I don't really see a problem with this. Perhaps you'll explain your thinking further.
 
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com7fy8

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what God's church would look like in terms of it's "appearance" or the impression it gives.
Jesus does say, "'Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.'" (John 7:24) So, I understand that Jesus does not have us judging preachers by their outward clothing.

About "the impression" something gives. Hopefully, each person can pray and think for oneself, so that your outward whatever can not decide and control what that person thinks of you. Ones can tend to want to suppose that people all will think alike so their "impression" can be controlled all in the same way! But this is what oppression tries to do > not interested in personally getting to know each individual with each one's unique interests, perspectives, ways, needs, problems, faults, and abilities.

ministers that wear expensive business suits with nice watches and other bling..
Well, Peter does say,

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, it is wrong for a minister to try to lord oneself over others. And, yes, ones can use fancy and expensive clothing in order to make themselves look superior to others. This would be wrong, if this is what someone is trying to do.

And our Apostle Paul does say >

"For we dare not to class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." (2 Corinthians 10:12)

We need to be concerned with how we are in comparison with Jesus, not how we can make ourselves look in comparison to other people and groups. And if we measure by ourselves, this can mean judging by how we can make ourselves look. And any psychopath can put on that act!! and even fool people into making him or her an ordained minister. "Jesus makes us able to tell the difference, deeper than outward appearance."

Then there is the robes/gowns/collars etc, worn by some denom's clergy...
Paul says he became "all things to all men", in 1 Corinthians 9:19-24. I consider Paul means that he would become like the ones he was reaching to. So, I understand that he would not try to make himself look very different. This could show how Jesus came in human flesh and blood, in order to reach us "at our level". God wants to be with us as we are, not distant like certain ministers can be distant and using various behaviors and clothing to make themselves distant.

But if someone has religious garbs, I understand Jesus does not want me to judge only by outward standards. But in case someone justifies and promotes what is vain and outward, the spirit of this can keep the person in emotional degradation so the person is incapable of personally and deeply relating in love with various people; and so . . . with the distant dress code can come deep distantness which is of stress and not the tenderness of Jesus love >

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

So, yes we all are commanded to forgive, "even as God". So - - limiting confession and forgiveness to only certain specially exalted people also can be distancing from the real God. Jesus in all of us (Galatians 4:19, 1 John 4:17) is forgiving, and in us Jesus shares with each of us, making each of us more and more tenderly forgiving the way He is . . . as much as we grow in Christ > therefore, instead of being concerned mainly or only with the clothes we put on >

"put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts." (in Romans 13:14)

"and be clothed with humility" (in 1 Peter 5:8)

What are some of your thoughts on the way we present our "men of God" and our method of worship?
We need example leaders > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. This description does not say anything about outward dress. The attention is to character and how a man has been proven at home with his own family first, before he may be trusted to "take care of the church of God" in our Heavenly Father's family caring and sharing way. At home, by the way, how does he dress while in loving sharing and caring with his family ? ? ? Does our leader's dress show that we are family, in Jesus?

do we have to participate in the fashion show at church?
Well, there are church culture people who evaluate one another by outward things like what clothes they are wearing. And, because they evaluate by such superficial standards, any psychopath can put on the acting and talking and show that they are looking for, and even become accepted as an ordained minister! So, no we do not have to go along with this, plus it can be very dangerous to evaluate people only by the show they put on.

Jesus' "sheep", even . . . not only His trusted leaders . . . can tell the difference between a good shepherd and a wolf in fancy religious clothing "or expensive outfits". Because sheep have the sense of smell; we in God's love have "senses" (Hebrews 5:14) so we can smell the difference :) So, if we have fooled ourselves into trusting the wrong person, this is our own fault, I consider, since we can make sure with God.

Therefore, we need to make sure we do not help to tempt church members to judge by outward things; and minister for them to become able to discern deeper in God's love which has His own light > Philippians 1:9.
 
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Albion

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Paul says he became "all things to all men", in 1 Corinthians 9:19-24. I consider Paul means that he would become like the ones he was reaching to. So, I understand that he would not try to make himself look very different. This could show how Jesus came in human flesh and blood, in order to reach us "at our level". God wants to be with us as we are, not distant like certain ministers can be distant and using various behaviors and clothing to make themselves distant.
Paul was that way, it's true, but the issue here was not how a missionary out in public ought to dress. It was about how the minister and the people in a worship service should look. Obviously, I'd say, the standards are different and, as a matter of fact, very few ministers or priests ever DO show up at someone's home or somewhere to deliver a speech, for example, dressed in the attire that was referred to early in this thread (robes, stoles, headgear, and so on).
 
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com7fy8

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@Albion It is different, but this does not necessarily mean it should be.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 peter 5:3)

And example, I consider, is someone who is and lives the way we all can, in the Lord.
 
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Albion

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@Albion It is different, but this does not necessarily mean it should be.
I'm sorry, but I can't find any reason for thinking that a clergyman conducting a worship service and a clergyman (or anyone else, for that matter) engaged in ordinary activities outside church ought to dress the same way for all occasions. None of us would think like this when it comes to everything else we do in life and it makes even less sense when we're talking about corporate worship.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Jesus does say, "'Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.'" (John 7:24) So, I understand that Jesus does not have us judging preachers by their outward clothing.

About "the impression" something gives. Hopefully, each person can pray and think for oneself, so that your outward whatever can not decide and control what that person thinks of you. Ones can tend to want to suppose that people all will think alike so their "impression" can be controlled all in the same way! But this is what oppression tries to do > not interested in personally getting to know each individual with each one's unique interests, perspectives, ways, needs, problems, faults, and abilities.

Well, Peter does say,

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, it is wrong for a minister to try to lord oneself over others. And, yes, ones can use fancy and expensive clothing in order to make themselves look superior to others. This would be wrong, if this is what someone is trying to do.

And our Apostle Paul does say >

"For we dare not to class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." (2 Corinthians 10:12)

We need to be concerned with how we are in comparison with Jesus, not how we can make ourselves look in comparison to other people and groups. And if we measure by ourselves, this can mean judging by how we can make ourselves look. And any psychopath can put on that act!! and even fool people into making him or her an ordained minister. "Jesus makes us able to tell the difference, deeper than outward appearance."

Paul says he became "all things to all men", in 1 Corinthians 9:19-24. I consider Paul means that he would become like the ones he was reaching to. So, I understand that he would not try to make himself look very different. This could show how Jesus came in human flesh and blood, in order to reach us "at our level". God wants to be with us as we are, not distant like certain ministers can be distant and using various behaviors and clothing to make themselves distant.

But if someone has religious garbs, I understand Jesus does not want me to judge only by outward standards. But in case someone justifies and promotes what is vain and outward, the spirit of this can keep the person in emotional degradation so the person is incapable of personally and deeply relating in love with various people; and so . . . with the distant dress code can come deep distantness which is of stress and not the tenderness of Jesus love >

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

So, yes we all are commanded to forgive, "even as God". So - - limiting confession and forgiveness to only certain specially exalted people also can be distancing from the real God. Jesus in all of us (Galatians 4:19, 1 John 4:17) is forgiving, and in us Jesus shares with each of us, making each of us more and more tenderly forgiving the way He is . . . as much as we grow in Christ > therefore, instead of being concerned mainly or only with the clothes we put on >

"put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts." (in Romans 13:14)

"and be clothed with humility" (in 1 Peter 5:8)

We need example leaders > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. This description does not say anything about outward dress. The attention is to character and how a man has been proven at home with his own family first, before he may be trusted to "take care of the church of God" in our Heavenly Father's family caring and sharing way. At home, by the way, how does he dress while in loving sharing and caring with his family ? ? ? Does our leader's dress show that we are family, in Jesus?

Well, there are church culture people who evaluate one another by outward things like what clothes they are wearing. And, because they evaluate by such superficial standards, any psychopath can put on the acting and talking and show that they are looking for, and even become accepted as an ordained minister! So, no we do not have to go along with this, plus it can be very dangerous to evaluate people only by the show they put on.

Jesus' "sheep", even . . . not only His trusted leaders . . . can tell the difference between a good shepherd and a wolf in fancy religious clothing "or expensive outfits". Because sheep have the sense of smell; we in God's love have "senses" (Hebrews 5:14) so we can smell the difference :) So, if we have fooled ourselves into trusting the wrong person, this is our own fault, I consider, since we can make sure with God.

Therefore, we need to make sure we do not help to tempt church members to judge by outward things; and minister for them to become able to discern deeper in God's love which has His own light > Philippians 1:9.

Praise God for the Spirit being upon you... :amen:

That was some bread from Heaven right there. :oldthumbsup:
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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None of us would think like this when it comes to everything else we do in life and it makes even less sense when we're talking about corporate worship.

And that's a problem not a virtue... we live, for the most part, as slaves to a corporate system that controls every aspect of our lives... this is the way Satan would have it to herd the sheep to the slaughter. The Papacy hated the Declaration of Independence when it was introduced because it gave man the God given right to live as he saw fit within Godly precepts that gave every American freedom of conscience and it has been slowly eroded since it's inception to be barely worth the paper it's on. The place we find ourselves in today is not enlightenment because we, as His last day church, are Laodicean's by design.
 
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Albion

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And that's a problem not a virtue... we live, for the most part, as slaves to a corporate system that controls every aspect of our lives...
Ah, well, that's some sort of conspiracy theory and far off from the topic we were discussing.
 
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Ah, well, that's some sort of conspiracy theory and far off from the topic we were discussing.
89866a5d27bdcb7e9dcfc6d372c23527.jpg
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Ah, well, that's some sort of conspiracy theory and far off from the topic we were discussing.
That's funny... none of us own anything or are anything unless the system allows it... live in your benevolent government bubble is you want but just opening your eyes a crack will reveal the truth.
 
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That's funny... none of us own anything or are anything unless the system allows it... live in your benevolent government bubble is you want but just opening your eyes a crack will reveal the truth.
c0353b2b173007b9fc9d57eccfbbe2a7.jpg
 
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Albion

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That's funny... none of us own anything or are anything unless the system allows it... live in your benevolent government bubble is you want but just opening your eyes a crack will reveal the truth.

You need to make up your mind. Is the government your boogeyman or is Capitalism?
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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You need to make up your mind. Is the government your boogeyman or is Capitalism?
You think the two are separate? Corporate interference in politics has become the main driver of the system.
 
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Albion

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You think the two are separate? Corporate interference in politics has become the main driver of the system.
I think I already have commented on this, but I'd point out that "corporate interference in politics" =/= Capitalism. I guess I just prefer accuracy when any of us goes on the warpath against some favorite "ism" or political issue.
 
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supersoldier71

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I'm sorry, but I can't find any reason for thinking that a clergyman conducting a worship service and a clergyman (or anyone else, for that matter) engaged in ordinary activities outside church ought to dress the same way for all occasions. None of us would think like this when it comes to everything else we do in life and it makes even less sense when we're talking about corporate worship.

By "corporate worship", you mean regularly scheduled congregational meetings, right?
 
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Commander Xenophon

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By "corporate worship", you mean regularly scheduled congregational meetings, right?

That, or on a brighter note, the more than halfway decent liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer. Which, granted, isn't as splendid as what graces the pages of an Orthodox Euchologion, but its better than most alternatives.
 
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