The True Church

[Albion]

Why is that?

Because, and as I was saying, $1000 suits are simply exercises in vanity. Even if the pastor could afford such suits, to wear them in the presence of his congregants is indefensible IMHO.

But vestments don't carry that connotation in themselves, although it's possible to become some sort of 'drama queen' in church by wearing exaggerated robes, etc. (which usually brings sneers from the members of even the liturgical churches) or when ministers take to wearing elaborate ones when their denominations and worship services are NOT liturgical. That's little more than 'showing off.'

My point is that I see less and less of Jesus' gospel message in the way our churches today have structured themselves and how they worship. From the over the top opulence and pomp and ceremony of the RC to the celebration services that seem to pattern themselves after a rock concert. Where is the humble, self sacrificing, straight testimony that permeated the first century church? The label of the last church dispensation as Laodicea is sadly accurate and the message for that church is a sobering one...

Moderation is a virtue. I don't think we ought to start talking as though anything other than jeans and a T-shirt or khakis and a polo is "over the top." The subject is much more complicated than that.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

There has been a lot of talk on these forums as to who/what constitutes the true Church of Christ... some say the mother Church because of her age and supposed apostolic connection. Others say God's people, wherever they are found. Some say the Protestants, the Orthodox, the Catholic, the Mormons (actually, not many say this).

So, this got me to thinking about what God's church would look like in terms of it's "appearance" or the impression it gives. If Christ's life and the lives of the apostles are our examples, lets see how we measure up...

I know it has bothered me for a while now, ministers that wear expensive business suits with nice watches and other bling.. What does that mode of dress represent to me about Christ's character and ministry? I have noticed that in churches where the pastor is a fashion horse, the congregation seems to be concerned with their appearance as well. Is this the message that should be conveyed?

Then there is the robes/gowns/collars etc, worn by some denom's clergy... while this better differentiates the laity from the officers of the church, is this what Jesus and the disciples gave by way of example? Is this an attempt to copy the religious garments that the Jewish priests were commanded to wear? The garments that Christ now wears as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary? Are we saying that Christ's priesthood is not sufficient and must be replicated on earth. What about the admonition that we (men) are priests of our homes? Are we expected to wear special clothing for this role? Where does the pomp and pageantry of some churches come from? Did Jesus teach us these things?

What are some of your thoughts on the way we present our "men of God" and our method of worship? Is it acceptable to wear everyday clothes to worship God or do we have to participate in the fashion show at church?

Some of the older denominations look like "pomp and pageantry" because they are using worship styles from a time and culture that doesn't really exist anymore. I respect their ability to persist and outlast the very cultures that have changed around them, sometimes not in their favor, for like 2000 years. They look weird to us as an american because these worship styles developed during a time when they made sense. I am not saying they don't now.

 

[Albion]

You're right about that, of course. The funny thing (to me) about this whole subject is that the typical attire of a priest in a Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran or similar church is based largely upon what the average person wore in the first century when Christ lived on Earth.

Why I consider that to be "funny" is because people of other Christian denominations are often asking us why we don't do such and such "like Jesus (or the New Testament church) did." Well, this is the way Jesus and the first Christians dressed.

Furthermore, there are those who emphasize doing everything as Scripture dictates, and some of this "look" is confirmed by what John wrote, in the Book of Revelation, about what he saw in his heavenly vision. None of that applies to the pastor wearing $1000 business suits, of course.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

You're right about that, of course. The funny thing (to me) about this whole subject is that the typical attire of a priest in a Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran or similar church is based largely upon what the average person wore in the first century when Christ lived on Earth.

Why I consider that to be "funny" is because people of other Christian denominations are often asking us why we don't do such and such "like Jesus (or the New Testament church) did." Well, this is the way Jesus and the first Christians dressed.

Furthermore, there are those who emphasize doing everything as Scripture dictates, and some of this "look" is confirmed by what John wrote, in the Book of Revelation, about what he saw in his heavenly vision. None of that applies to the pastor wearing $1000 business suits, of course.

I am not concerned with a contextualization that happened 2000 years ago, when concerned with dress or worship. I am more concerned with modern Christians contextualizing teachings to the point of be borderline, if not out right, non- Christian. Its already happened before in America. [see Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons]

 

[Albion]

I am not concerned with a contextualization that happened 2000 years ago

You're entitled to that view, of course; but the topic here is the one expressed in the OP. That's what I was replying to. For that person, what does not concern you apparently is of concern to him ("I know it has bothered me for a while now, ministers that wear expensive business suits with nice watches and other bling.. What does that mode of dress represent to me about Christ's character and ministry?...Then there is the robes/gowns/collars etc, worn by some denom's clergy").

 

[Wgw]

You're right about that, of course. The funny thing (to me) about this whole subject is that the typical attire of a priest in a Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran or similar church is based largely upon what the average person wore in the first century when Christ lived on Earth.

Why I consider that to be "funny" is because people of other Christian denominations are often asking us why we don't do such and such "like Jesus (or the New Testament church) did." Well, this is the way Jesus and the first Christians dressed.

Furthermore, there are those who emphasize doing everything as Scripture dictates, and some of this "look" is confirmed by what John wrote, in the Book of Revelation, about what he saw in his heavenly vision. None of that applies to the pastor wearing $1000 business suits, of course.

This is a very apt point. St. Paul wore a chasuble, not in a liturgical way, but because a chasuble or phelonion was a first century equivalent of a jacket or sweater. Other aspects of vestments are variously derived from Byzantine court dress (the stoles, epitrachelia, and so on), or from the vesture of the Judaic priesthood (the Sakkos and Mitre).

 

[prodromos]

What do you understand from Matt 22:8-13?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What do you understand from Matt 22:8-13?

The wedding garment here represents Christ righteousness...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

So if the liturgical vestments closely represents the garb of the 1st century, which I am somewhat inclined to agree with, what's up with the procession, candles, censor and other things apparently borrowed from the levitical priesthood? It's interesting that the liturgical churches reject certain Jewish practices but embrace others.

 

[supersoldier71]

There's a flip side to this coin: is it vanity to wear nice clothes that fit properly? To take reasonable care of your body? To groom yourself well?

And then there's this: the relationship we have with Christ is a personal one, and ultimately, about what's on the inside of my "cup" not the outside of someone else's.

Is it beyond the power of God to move a wealthy man in a nice suit to do His works for His pleasure and glory?

 

[prodromos]

The wedding garment here represents Christ righteousness...

That is certainly one level of meaning. There is more to it though, don't you think?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

That is certainly one level of meaning. There is more to it though, don't you think?

Care to elaborate? Parables are spiritual in nature so we are to look for the spiritual connotation.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

There's a flip side to this coin: is it vanity to wear nice clothes that fit properly? To take reasonable care of your body? To groom yourself well?

And then there's this: the relationship we have with Christ is a personal one, and ultimately, about what's on the inside of my "cup" not the outside of someone else's.

Is it beyond the power of God to move a wealthy man in a nice suit to do His works for His pleasure and glory?

The point is not what God can do, it's whether our 'outside' matches our inward profession... what fruits are we bearing. If I 'need' to dress in expensive clothes or 'feel' holy because of a religious ceremony , this is a sign that my heart is not fully surrendered to Christ.

 

[supersoldier71]

The point is not what God can do, it's whether our 'outside' matches our inward profession... what fruits are we bearing. If I 'need' to dress in expensive clothes or 'feel' holy because of a religious ceremony , this is a sign that my heart is not fully surrendered to Christ.

...which has to do with what's inside YOU. Is MY heart FULLY surrendered to Christ? Can I get through one day without sinning? Do I love my Lord with all my heart, soul, mind and strength and my neighbor as myself, every moment of every day as I am directed?

"Expensive" is an adjective that is relative and arbitrary. As a middle-aged African-American man who has been materially blessed, there aren't many things that I own that wouldn't seem expensive to the teenaged me, who grew up in public housing. I am not a flashy person: I wear two pieces of "jewelry" my plain gold wedding band and a $25 dollar Timex that also jumps out of planes with me. I own suits that are required for my profession: they are well made and well tailored because if I show looking like a bum, I'd lose credibility with other professionals before I even opened my mouth.

To your point, sure, if someone were to show to the service dressed like a pimp, I'd be concerned, as I would if I attended a service with no "meat", but none of those conditions concerns me as much as my own slow, ongoing process of sanctification.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Which church—that is, which denomination of Christianity—is the “true church”? Which church is the one that God loves and cherishes and died for? Which church is His bride? The answer is that no visible church or denomination is the true church, because the bride of Christ is not an institution, but is instead a spiritual entity made up of those who have by grace through faith been brought into a close, intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9). Those people, no matter which building, denomination, or country they happen to be in, constitute the true church.

In the Bible, we see that the local (or visible) church is nothing more than a gathering of professing believers. In Paul’s letters, the word church is used in two different ways. There are many examples of the word church being used to simply refer to a group of professing believers who meet together on a regular basis (1 Corinthians 16:9; 2 Corinthians 8:1; 11:28). We see Paul’s concern, in his letters, for the individual churches in various cities along his missionary journey. But he also refers to a church that is invisible—a spiritual entity that has close fellowship with Christ, as close as a bride to her husband (Ephesians 5:25, 32), and of which He is the spiritual head (Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 3:21). This church is made up of an unnamed, unspecified group of individuals (Philippians 3:6;1Timothy 3:5) that have Christ in common.

The word church is a translation of the Greek word ekklesia, meaning “a called–out assembly.” The word describes a group of people who have been called out of the world and set apart for the Lord, and it is always used, in its singular form, to describe a universal group of people who know Christ. The word ekklesia, when pluralized, is used to describe groups of believers who meet together. Interestingly enough, the word church is never used in the Bible to describe a building or organization.

It is easy to get ensnared by the idea that a particular denomination within Christianity is “the true church,” but this view is a misunderstanding of Scripture. When choosing a church to attend, it is important to remember that a gathering of believers should be a place where those who belong to the true church (the spiritual entity) feel at home. That is to say, a good local church will uphold the Word of God, honoring it and preaching faithfully, proclaim the gospel steadfastly, and feed and tend the sheep. A church that teaches heresy or engages in sin will eventually be very low on (or entirely bereft of) those people that belong to the true church—the sheep who hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him (John 10:27).

Members of the true church always enjoy agreement in and fellowship around Jesus Christ, as He is plainly revealed in His Word. This is what is referred to as Christian unity. Another common mistake is to believe that Christian unity is just a matter of agreeing with one another. Simple agreement for the sake of agreement does not speak the truth in love or spur one another on to unity in Christ; rather, it encourages believers to refrain from speaking difficult truths. It sacrifices true understanding of God in favor of a false unity based on disingenuous love that is nothing more than selfish tolerance of sin in oneself and others.

The true church is the bride of Christ (Revelation 21:2, 9; 22:17) and the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 12:27). It cannot be contained, walled in, or defined by anything other than its love for Christ and its dedication to Him. The true church is, as C. S. Lewis put it, “spread out through all time and space and rooted in eternity, terrible as an army with banners.”

 

[Extraneous]

The Church is here>


Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

To put this church dress code thing to rest, the bible makes absolutely clear where God stands on the subject.

My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? ...

James 2:1-9

But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

1 Samuel 16:7

Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,

1 Timothy 2:9

Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

1 Peter 3:3-4


So in a nutshell, the bible clearly states that God does not put a lot of interest in outward appearance while attending church. His primary concern is the beauty and nature of your heart. In James 2, it instructs christians to dress modestly and not to wear fancy high-dollar clothes and accessories. Doing so will only bring division in the church and discourage the poor and less fortunate to attend church out of fear of shame.

 

[Extraneous]

The Church dress code: Our clothing is also our armor.

Revelation 16:15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

Colossians 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.


Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

1 Peter 5:5 In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,

“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”[a]
6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I believe I understand what you are trying to say. However I just want to clarify some things to make sure we are on the same page.

The Church dress code: Our clothing is also our armor.

Revelation 16:15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

The scripture is not referring to literal "clothes" but rather not to leave yourself spiritually vulnerable. This is because nothing is hidden from God. Especially the nature of your heart. So vigilant in protecting your heart because in the end, one day your true nature will be exposed and when that day happens you want the nature of your heart to bring glory to God and not shame on yourself.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

The "gold refined in fire" is obviously not referring to literal gold. Rather it is referring to works as described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 "13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Colossians 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Once again, compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience are not literal clothing but rather spiritual garments that will protect you from exposure to our spiritual enemy.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the[/b] sword of the Spirit[/b], which is the word of God.

All text that I put in bold font are obviously "spiritual armor" to protect yourself from spiritual attacks from our spiritual enemy and not literal armor.