The True Church

[Tree of Life]

I can't agree to this, however. Wearing lavish and obviously expensive clothing, strictly on one's own volition, does indeed raise Scriptural concerns about vanity, etc. as well as common decency if, for instance, the pastor wants financial contributions from the members and they aren't as well-heeled as the pastor is making himself look.

Are you saying that if a pastor receives an expensive suit as a gift he is not free to wear it in the pulpit?

 

[Albion]

Are you saying that if a pastor receives an expensive suit as a gift he is not free to wear it in the pulpit?

Is he receiving a gift suit? Does he wear it every Sunday? And are you seriously contending that this explains the all-too-common fact that some pastors do dress much more expensively than the members of their flocks? IOW, the rare exception doesn't actually address the issue, and the issue is valid.

 

[sculleywr]

Is he receiving a gift suit? Does he wear it every Sunday? And are you seriously contending that this explains the all-too-common fact that some pastors do dress much more expensively than the members of their flocks? IOW, the rare exception doesn't actually address the issue, and the issue is valid.

However, the wearing of ornate vestments does not have to do with vanity. It is simply use bringing our best to bring before God. We come to Church to worship God. So we dress the best we can, and we dress our clergy the best we can. In my first two parishes, the entire wardrobe of vestments the presbyters had were donated to them or given as gifts. But the vestments are not, with rare exception, the property of the clergy, but of the Church itself.

Besides that, do you wear your rattiest clothing when you come to Church?

If a pastor happens to be really successful in financial investments, is it really vanity for him to purchase nice clothes to come to Church in?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Beyond some obvious biblical parameters that apply to all people and every situation, I don't think it matters how church officers (pastors included) dress. They are free to wear what they want. If they want to wear nice suits because they want to show respect to the office then they are free to do so. If they want to wear robes as a means of sanctifying the ministry of the word they are free to do this. If they want to wear blue jeans and a t-shirt to be more relatable to everyone they are free to do this.

I see no biblical requirements for condemning any of these practices or mandating them. Of course there are heart issues that can be condemned. But because we cannot see man's heart we cannot clearly judge these matters. That's between the person and God.

It's more the optics it can create... not saying it's wrong per se, but we are admonished from creating a stumbling block for the brethren. Televangelists that have mansions and private jets and wear $$$ clothing are a bane to the message of Christianity as a whole... I would think most would agree. I'm just sliding the threshold a little lower to understand the need for some to dress beyond their humble calling.

I find unembellished robes, casual neat dress and even collars are suitable so the hearer focuses on the message and not the messenger.

 

[Root of Jesse]

During the 1970's I worked at several men's clothing outlets in retail sales, both department stores and specialty shops. I started in the men's clothing department at Sears, worked the same job at Rose's department store, and worked at Men's Warehouse (You may have seen their commercials on t.v.), a national chain of men's clothing stores that deals exclusively with "business attire" featuring upper scale garments at reduced prices. Naturally, this also includes accessories like shirts, belts, shoes and the like.

From experience, I can tell from a glance by looking at a man's suit and dress, whether he's wearing a low end "off the rack" suit, or whether he's wearing a more expensive one that has been properly fitted and tailored. It's like being able to spot the difference between a guy who is works as a public defender and can only afford a suit at Walmart or Sears, and someone working in the DA's office, as well as a bank manager or stock broker type who can generally afford much more expensive clothes.

As for tele-evangalists like Irvin Baxter, I can assure you that he doesn't buy his suits "off the rack" at Sears. I have seen him up close in person at a church where he "performed" in Humble, Texas. He arrived in a Lincoln Town car with a security entourage, and I estimate the cost of his tailored suit at around $800 dollars. His shirt and tie were silk, and you can kick out another $200 dollars for his silk pocket handkerchief, socks and expensive leather shoes. At over one thousand dollars, definitely bank manager attire.

Just thought I'd point out the difference between "regular" business attire, and someone who dresses in a particularly "luxurious" style of attire that says, "I am successful, and I am affluent, and I spend lots of money to look that way". Irvin Baxter definitely spends lots of money to look the way he does.

You guys decide for yourself, whether or not it's appropriate for a "man of the cloth" to dress in that lavish a manner. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

I'd say you were distracted by the suit, in many cases. I'd suggest closing your eyes and listening to the message. Then, if the message is wrong, you have another valid criticism. I agree that costly trappings like those are inappropriate in most cases, especially for 'clergy', but then I think it's just as true for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton too. Oh, I know they justify it, but I don't let expensive luxury cloud my faith.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

If a pastor happens to be really successful in financial investments, is it really vanity for him to purchase nice clothes to come to Church in?

In a word, yes.... if you are a stumbling block to someone and tempt them to covet what you have, then it is wrong to do.

In my families little hamlet of 500 people, there was one family that ran the local quarry and cement plant... millionaires. The lived in a slightly larger but still modest ranch style house and drove pickup trucks and dressed as normal as everyone around them... you would not know their wealth status to just meet them. They were also very humble and giving people and no one in that hamlet, thought negative about that family because of the money they had, it was all character based.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'd say you were distracted by the suit, in many cases. I'd suggest closing your eyes and listening to the message. Then, if the message is wrong, you have another valid criticism. I agree that costly trappings like those are inappropriate in most cases, especially for 'clergy', but then I think it's just as true for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton too. Oh, I know they justify it, but I don't let expensive luxury cloud my faith.

The problem is, it causes some to be tempted by covetousness, envy, jealousy etc... especially in this celebrity idolized society we live in. They don't do "red carpets" for the interviews...

 

[Root of Jesse]

The problem is, it causes some to be tempted by covetousness, envy, jealousy etc... especially in this celebrity idolized society we live in. They don't do "red carpets" for the interviews...

That's why I appreciate clergy who appear in public as clergy-priests, religious brothers and nuns.

 

[Tree of Life]

It's more the optics it can create... not saying it's wrong per se, but we are admonished from creating a stumbling block for the brethren. Televangelists that have mansions and private jets and wear $$$ clothing are a bane to the message of Christianity as a whole... I would think most would agree. I'm just sliding the threshold a little lower to understand the need for some to dress beyond their humble calling.

I find unembellished robes, casual neat dress and even collars are suitable so the hearer focuses on the message and not the messenger.

I would agree that there are some strange excesses among televangelists and among certain health-and-wealth prosperity gospel churches. But the problems there are much deeper than how the pastor dresses. The latter is just a small sign of a much deeper issue - which is confusion about the gospel itself. So I wouldn't go to great lengths to attack this small outward detail when I could spend my energy fighting the false prosperity gospel itself. Kill the prosperity gospel and the rest will die too.

 

[sculleywr]

In a word, yes.... if you are a stumbling block to someone and tempt them to covet what you have, then it is wrong to do.

In my families little hamlet of 500 people, there was one family that ran the local quarry and cement plant... millionaires. The lived in a slightly larger but still modest ranch style house and drove pickup trucks and dressed as normal as everyone around them... you would not know their wealth status to just meet them. They were also very humble and giving people and no one in that hamlet, thought negative about that family because of the money they had, it was all character based.

I could be a stumbling block to ANYONE, regardless of what I wore. If I were worried about being a stumbling block because of clothing, I WOULD NOT COME TO CHURCH!

No, it is not vanity to wear the best you have to Church. What makes vanity a sin is not whether or not what you do offends someone, but intent. If a man has nice clothes and wears them because he is going to meet God and wants to present himself in his best clothes when he comes before the King of all creation, that is not vanity. That is a recognition that this is the almighty God we are talking about. I don't wear paint splattered shorts and a ripped up T shirt when I come to Church because that would be bringing my worst before God. I wear a nice button down shirt and the only pair of slacks I own that still fits.

If you are so worried about offending someone, then don't come to Church, because you can't offend someone by your clothes when you aren't there.

 

[stephen583]

I'd say you were distracted by the suit, in many cases. I'd suggest closing your eyes and listening to the message. Then, if the message is wrong, you have another valid criticism.

Believe me, I didn't drive all the way there just to look at Irvin Baxter's town car and his expensive clothes. He lost me when he started comparing Bible prophecy to the predictions of the astrologer Nostradamus. Next he started in with the sink holes appearing in the permafrost of Russia and the sulfurous fumes and screams from Hell emanating from them. Naturally, this discourse of complete nonsense, was interrupted by frequent requests for offerings supporting his ministry.

That was enough for me to tell this "evangelical" freak show was definitely not based on real Christianity or any serious study of eschatology. That's when I walked out.

 

[stephen583]

This ^ is one good reason for vestments, at least just a black gown. It avoids all the second-guessing over cost of the suit, whether the pastor should be wearing one rather than jeans, the color, etc. All of that.

Anyone who has read the NT knows Christ was against the superficial, showy, ostentatious spectacle the Pharisees turned the temple into. In fact, they had turned it into quite a lucrative enterprise, which led to Jesus turning over the tables of the moneychangers in the temple courtyard, (Matthew 21:12). Jesus also stressed in the Gospel that prayer should be a private, rather than public matter, (Matthew 6:6). It seems to me both these teachings are generally being ignored by Christians nowadays.

Before I am publicly stoned in this forum for bringing up these two points of Christian theology, let me add I am not an opponent of public prayer. Jesus prayed in public, and so did his disciples. There is also plenty of evidence in the teachings of the Apostles that believers in Christ should "congregate" with each other, and should listen to their teachers, ministers and prophets. At times a congregation may pray as a church body, as it did when it prayed for the deliverance of the Apostle Peter, when he was arrested and imprisoned, (Acts 12:5).

What I am criticizing, is when the public spectacle and pomp of a gathering of the Church, or public appearance of one of its' leaders, (such as Pope Francis' visit in September 2015 to America), completely outweighs any "spiritual" reason for the occasion, and the focus becomes a commercial and political spectacle for the mass media, the paparazzi and photo ops with American politicians.

Somehow, I don't think that kind of "celebrity" worship is what Jesus and his disciples had in mind when they established the Church., what do you think ?!

 

[Albion]

To answer that question...I think the example shown by St. Francis of Assisi ought to be appreciated by more bishops, priests, and ministers than it seems is the case.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Believe me, I didn't drive all the way there just to look at Irvin Baxter's town car and his expensive clothes. He lost me when he started comparing Bible prophecy to the predictions of the astrologer Nostradamus. Next he started in with the sink holes appearing in the permafrost of Russia and the sulfurous fumes and screams from Hell emanating from them. Naturally, this discourse of complete nonsense, was interrupted by frequent requests for offerings supporting his ministry.

That was enough for me to tell this "evangelical" freak show was definitely not based on real Christianity or any serious study of eschatology. That's when I walked out.

OK. Then it wasn't 'just' the suit.

 

[sunlover1]

What are some of your thoughts on the way we present our "men of God" and our method of worship? Is it acceptable to wear everyday clothes to worship God or do we have to participate in the fashion show at church?

I don't have a problem with the garb as long as it's not symbolic of paganism or something like that.
other than that, I don't see how it would matter if they wear a purple dress suit or a black robe.
I'm posting without having read the other responses, so it will be interesting to see how others
feel about these things.
I guess the main thing is humility? If someone's wearing a long robe and it makes them feel like
they're somehow more holy than me, or if someone's wearing an expensive watch and then they
look down their nose at me... well actually, either of these scenarios would be a problem not so
much with what the put on that day as much as what's in their hearts?

 

[sunlover1]

God could care less, He looks on our hearts, so why the need to "dress up" to be part of a church?

Amen!
But you might find that a lot of members can't see this.
Reminds me of this time:

 

[Albion]

• It's a delicate issue, and abuses can happen in either case. But obviously, I'd say, wearing a dress suit or any street dress invites everyone else who's looking at the pastor -- because the people wear suits or jeans themselves -- to be distracted by the attire. It gets judged. Is it too expensive a suit? Is it too casual for church? Should he be wearing a tie with that suit? And so on. By contrast, a simple robe (or something like it) is something like the people who change the sets between acts in Kabuki theater. You're not supposed to notice them since they are dressed in all black without adornments. No impression at all is made. In the church, the attention is instead directed at the message. That's the thinking, anyway.

 

[sculleywr]

• It's a delicate issue, and abuses can happen in either case. But obviously, I'd say, wearing a dress suit or any street dress invites everyone else who's looking at the pastor -- because the people wear suits or jeans themselves -- to be distracted by the attire. It gets judged. Is it too expensive a suit? Is it too casual for church? Should he be wearing a tie with that suit? And so on. By contrast, a simple robe (or something like it) is something like Kabuki theater in that it tends to make almost no statement and the attention is focused on the person and his message.

One could literally do that with any dress attire. If he comes into church in any outfit, he can be judged for his attire

 

[Albion]

One could literally do that with any dress attire. If he comes into church in any outfit, he can be judged for his attire

Probably so, but it's much, much harder to be concerned and second-guessing of a Geneva gown (and surplice, let's say) than by the $800 dollar suit a lot of people are thinking about. Or, for that matter, too casual attire on the part of the pastor.

Now, I suppose that this raises the issue of more extensive vestments. Some people will say that an alb, for example, is too showy...and, therefore, a cause of vanity on the priest's part or a distraction to the parishioners. But the idea in all of this was to aim at avoiding the extremes, not that there is an absolute answer about "this attire instead of that attire."

 

[sunlover1]

• It's a delicate issue, and abuses can happen in either case. But obviously, I'd say, wearing a dress suit or any street dress invites everyone else who's looking at the pastor -- because the people wear suits or jeans themselves -- to be distracted by the attire. It gets judged. Is it too expensive a suit? Is it too casual for church? Should he be wearing a tie with that suit? And so on. By contrast, a simple robe (or something like it) is something like the people who change the sets between acts in Kabuki theater. You're not supposed to notice them since they are dressed in all black without adornments. No impression at all is made. In the church, the attention is instead directed at the message. That's the thinking, anyway.

Well to be honest, my church isn't judgy. We've had a good example, and plus we'd get
disciplined for it! ) When an African Bishop came dressed in Africa's colors, and the clothes
very loud, it didn't disrupt my ability to hear his message. It was years ago but i remember
as though it were yesterday.
I don't care much what someone's wearing but some do treat ppl differently based on what
they wear. And some can't be pleased no matter what you do. It's just another of those things.