The true and faithful ones.

[CharlesYTK]

How do you good folks feel about this scripture? The true saints of the Lord are seen in the last days being persecuted by the Antichrist. But notice how they are described:

Rev 12: [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

They have saving faith in Jesus and in response to that faith they are obedient to the commandments of God.

 

[JohnJones]

Rev 14[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Notice also they keep "the faith of Jesus" not merely "faith in Jesus." The phrase "the faith" indicates not merely a belief, but an entire set of beliefs and practices. So Paul says in Rom 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" -- "The faith" is something to be obeyed, not merely believed. Acts 6:7 "...and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." Romans 3:3 "...shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?" Shall anyone's unbelief render Christianity null and void? Certainly not! 2 Cor 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;..." -- "The faith" is something we can obey/disobey, believe/disbelive, and be in/out of. 1st Tim 4:1 "...that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,..." -- "The faith" can be departed from. 1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." -- The faith can be denied. 1 Tim 6:10 "...they have erred from the faith,..." -- The faith can be erred from. 2 Tim 4:7 "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:" -- The faith can be kept!

 

[In Christ Forever]

Rev 12: [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

They have saving faith in Jesus and in response to that faith they are obedient to the commandments of God.

Here, not only the saints are rewarded, but the Prophets also. Can't wait to see that

This shows the true diety of Christ, also being called The Lord God Almighty who is to come!!!!

revel 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith [is] futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, [and] has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

 

[DanielRB]

How do you good folks feel about this scripture? The true saints of the Lord are seen in the last days being persecuted by the Antichrist. But notice how they are described:

Rev 12: [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

They have saving faith in Jesus and in response to that faith they are obedient to the commandments of God.

Hi Charles,

Those who keep the commandments of God follow according to the Spirit, not the letter:

"Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. " (Romans 7:4-6, ESV)

So now we follow God by the new life he has given us through his Spirit. The commandments of God are not equal to the written law, though the written law pointed to them.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[JohnJones]

The commands of God are written, in the NEW Testament.

 

[In Christ Forever]

Those who keep the commandments of God follow according to the Spirit, not the letter:

"Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. " (Romans 7:4-6, ESV)

So now we follow God by the new life he has given us through his Spirit. The commandments of God are not equal to the written law, though the written law pointed to them.

Rev 12: [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

That was pretty interesting Daniel. That made me look at revelation in a new light. It appears there those that believe in God and follow the letter of the Law, and those that believe in God but also are of the faith of Jesus. So you have to have both belief in God and the faith of Jesus.

According to this passage, John is not only measuring the temple and altar, but the ones worshipping there. This would have be ones of the jewish faith or Levitical faith I assume as most of them didn't believe in Jesus. What else could it be?

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

1 corin 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them,] because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[CharlesYTK]

Well I did not expect so many responses. I have read them all and appreciate your responses. So considering these I will point to this. Paul says that a spiritual man, pleases God because his mind is subject to the Law of God.

Ro 8: [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And lets look at the actual Gospel of Jesus for a moment.

Forgive me for copying this from another posting, but it fit this conversation at this point.

MT 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repent (return to Torah, quit breaking Torah, for the breaking of Torah is what sin is)


for the kingdom ((the active ruling of the king through his laws (will, laws, Torah) and exercised by his people through obedience.))


of heaven (God's Kingdom, Heaven = God in this reference)


is at hand. (at hand or near, in Hebrew means before you, right here right now. To draw near to God is to come before His presence.)

The Gospel of Yeshua:

Quit sinning and breaking Torah, turn and become obedient to Torah for this is the will of the King, that you obey the king for his kingdom is right now, before you.



Yeshua said,"If you love me, then keep the commandments." He also said "Whoever breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be the least in the Kingdom of God."

John said, "If you say that you love him and keep not His commandments, then you are a liar and there is no truth in you."

 

[CharlesYTK]

The commands of God are written, in the NEW Testament.

There is nothing in the New testament that was not already in the Old Testament. Jesus is presenting the same laws, and bringing them to a proper understanding. Consider this:

MT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

When Jesus said I come "to fulfil" this does not mean to put an end to it. Certainly the context makes that clear as he has already said that he did not come to destroy the law and anyone who is not obedient to it will be the least in the Kingdom. . What is missed often is that the word "Fulfil" in the Greek means "to bring to its fulness, to fully establish, or to set upon a firm foundation." This is especially true in the context of this verse. So Jesus was moving the law to the heart. Yet it is the same law. Only now with the spirit in you, you no longer are at odds with the law. Now you want to keep the commandments from the very depth of your hearts. This is the essence of the New covenant, Jer 31. I will write my Torah (law) upon their hearts and every man shall know me. . .

 

[CharlesYTK]

Hi Charles,

Those who keep the commandments of God follow according to the Spirit, not the letter:

"Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. " (Romans 7:4-6, ESV)

So now we follow God by the new life he has given us through his Spirit. The commandments of God are not equal to the written law, though the written law pointed to them.

In Christ,

Daniel

Here is a snip from David Sterns CJB commentary.

4​

You have been made dead with regard to the Torah. It is not the Torah that has been made dead (abrogated), nor is a believer made dead in the sense of no longer responding to its truth. Rather, he has been made dead not to all of Torah, but to three aspects of it: (1) its capacity to stir up sin in him (vv. 5–14), (2) its capacity to produce irremediable guilt feelings (vv. 15–25), and (3) its penalties, punishments and curses (8:1–4). A few remarks on each in turn (and also see v. 6):
​

(1) How the Torah has the capacity to stir up sin in an individual, alluded to earlier (2:18; 3:20; 5:13, 20), is analyzed carefully in vv. 5–14 and on through 8:13. This capacity of the Torah to make us sin is not a fault in the Torah but a fault in ourselves. A healthy person thrives in an environment deadly to someone who is ill; likewise the Torah, beneficial to a believer living by faith, is an instrument of death to those controlled by their sinful nature. The fault in ourselves is that we have a sinful propensity (5:12–21&N) to misuse the Torah, making it into a framework of legalism instead of what it is, a framework of grace (6:14–15&N, 8:2&N).
​

(2) The Torah can still produce guilt feelings in a believer—as it rightly should whenever he contemplates how his behavior falls short of the standard God sets in the Torah. But these feelings are not irremediable. The remedy is once-and-for-all trust in Yeshua the Messiah’s final atonement for sin (3:21–26), followed by ongoing confession of and repentance from sins (1 Yn 1:9–2:2) coupled with restitution to injured parties and reliance on the power of the Holy Spirit (7:25–8:39).
​

(3) It is through the Messiah’s body, through his atoning death (3:21–26), that believers have been made dead to the penalties set forth by the Torah for disobeying it. "The Messiah redeemed us from the curse pronounced in the Torah by becoming cursed on our behalf" (Ga 3:13&N). This is clarified in v. 6&N.
​

 

[DanielRB]

Here is a snip from David Sterns CJB commentary.

4​

You have been made dead with regard to the Torah. It is not the Torah that has been made dead (abrogated), nor is a believer made dead in the sense of no longer responding to its truth. Rather, he has been made dead not to all of Torah, but to three aspects of it: (1) its capacity to stir up sin in him (vv. 5–14), (2) its capacity to produce irremediable guilt feelings (vv. 15–25), and (3) its penalties, punishments and curses (8:1–4). A few remarks on each in turn (and also see v. 6):


​

(1) How the Torah has the capacity to stir up sin in an individual, alluded to earlier (2:18; 3:20; 5:13, 20), is analyzed carefully in vv. 5–14 and on through 8:13. This capacity of the Torah to make us sin is not a fault in the Torah but a fault in ourselves. A healthy person thrives in an environment deadly to someone who is ill; likewise the Torah, beneficial to a believer living by faith, is an instrument of death to those controlled by their sinful nature. The fault in ourselves is that we have a sinful propensity (5:12–21&N) to misuse the Torah, making it into a framework of legalism instead of what it is, a framework of grace (6:14–15&N, 8:2&N).​

(2) The Torah can still produce guilt feelings in a believer—as it rightly should whenever he contemplates how his behavior falls short of the standard God sets in the Torah. But these feelings are not irremediable. The remedy is once-and-for-all trust in Yeshua the Messiah’s final atonement for sin (3:21–26), followed by ongoing confession of and repentance from sins (1 Yn 1:9–2:2) coupled with restitution to injured parties and reliance on the power of the Holy Spirit (7:25–8:39).​

(3) It is through the Messiah’s body, through his atoning death (3:21–26), that believers have been made dead to the penalties set forth by the Torah for disobeying it. "The Messiah redeemed us from the curse pronounced in the Torah by becoming cursed on our behalf" (Ga 3:13&N). This is clarified in v. 6&N.


​

Hi Charles,

Thanks for the post. I do like David Stern's work, though I'm not completely comfortable with all of his conclusions.

I agree that Torah--God's instruction--is not abrogated, in that God always has certain commandments for his followers at different times. It's obvious that certain commandments are for only one time or a limited time. For example, God instructed Noah to build an Ark, gather animals, etc. This instruction was only for a particular person at a particular time.

Other instructions last for a longer period, but are eventually ended. For example, humans (and all the animals) were originally commanded only to eat plants (Genesis 1:29-30); yet after the flood God allowed humans to eat meat, but not blood (Genesis 9:3-4).

Even in the Torah given to Moses there are commandments that were for a temporary time. For example, Passover in Exodus 12 was to be eaten in individual homes; in Deuteronomy 16, however, it was supposed to be eaten in the Santuary in Jerusalem (where the Passover lamb could be sacrificed).

There is an excellent analysis of the question about the immutability of Torah at http://www.christian-thinktank.com/finaltorah.html .

Remember that the New Testament teaches that Torah (the one given to Moses in the context) is our schoolmaster (or "guardian" here in the ESV) to bring us to Christ, but now we are not under that schoolmaster:

"So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian," (Galatians 3:24-25, ESV)

I don't believe that the Mosaic code is the essence of God's Torah for the follower of Christ--though it points quite well in many respects to God's eternal standards to which we are still subject today.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[CharlesYTK]

It is understood that there are parts of Torah that can not be applied in this day as you have mentioned Noahs instructions. Another is the preisthood for Temple service. There is no temple or Tabernacle at this time so we need not be concerned with that. Yet there are other basic principles that can be established by things that are given. Additionally there is an eternal framework within Torah. I believe the Ten commands are very close to these. They predate the code of Moshe. For example we see that Noah understood the difference between clean and unclean, and Caine and Able knew about proper sacrifice, as did Abraham. And Speaking of Abraham: he is the father of all those who are saved through faith. and yet we have this testimony concerning him:

Gen 26: [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham understood this eternal core of Torah even before Moshe received it.


The Church long ago lost sight of the fact that Gentiles who were Pagans before were grafted into Israel and into her covenants and become part of the Torah community. And not the other way around. God didn't change his mind about Israel and His Torah and make all Men into lawless Pagans. He make both Jew and Gentiles into on redeemed people. This was the Gospel of Paul.

Eph 2:

13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. 14 For he himself is our shalom—he has made us both one and has broken down the m<chitzah which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create In union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus killing in himself that enmity.
​

17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby, 18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
​

19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God’s people and members of God’s family.

Gentiles are grafted into Israel and made to be one people, one new man.

 

[DanielRB]

It is understood that there are parts of Torah that can not be applied in this day as you have mentioned Noahs instructions. Another is the preisthood for Temple service. There is no temple or Tabernacle at this time so we need not be concerned with that. Yet there are other basic principles that can be established by things that are given. Additionally there is an eternal framework within Torah. I believe the Ten commands are very close to these. They predate the code of Moshe. For example we see that Noah understood the difference between clean and unclean, and Caine and Able knew about proper sacrifice, as did Abraham. And Speaking of Abraham: he is the father of all those who are saved through faith. and yet we have this testimony concerning him:

Gen 26: [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham understood this eternal core of Torah even before Moshe received it.

Hi Charles,

Yet it is clear that Abraham did certain things that would, under the code given through Moses, be worthy of death, such as marrying his half-sister (Gen 20:12). Most Christians would agree that the prohibition against incest was a timeless principal that was not aborgated, even if we aren't under the Mosaic code. I still don't have an answer for this one, but I think it's something important to remember, for God never condemned Abraham's choice in a wife.

As to clean/unclean: since before the flood, humanity was only supposed to eat plant life, the only distinction between clean and unclean would be in regard to sacrifice, not food. Indeed, after the flood, Noah and his family were given permission to eat all meat (Gen 9:3), not just all clean meat. I think clean/unclean were primarily in reference to sacrifice, and only after the Mosaic code were they also applicable to what can be eaten and what was forbidden.

I agree there is something eternal underlying Moses' Torah. The Ten Commandments are a pretty good summation, but I think Jesus pointed out what he viewed as the best summation of Torah:

"“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” " (Matthew 22:36-40, ESV)

Even when relating parts of the Ten Commandments, Jesus never referred to them in toto, only a few select ones:

"And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions." (Matthew 19:16-22, ESV)

Again, I would say that much of the instruction given through Moses can be used to gain insight on God's character and eternal nature; but I don't believe that all of Torah--even excluding the parts that require a tabernacle or temple--is binding on today's Christian.

The Church long ago lost sight of the fact that Gentiles who were Pagans before were grafted into Israel and into her covenants and become part of the Torah community. And not the other way around. God didn't change his mind about Israel and His Torah and make all Men into lawless Pagans. He make both Jew and Gentiles into on redeemed people. This was the Gospel of Paul.

Eph 2:

13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. 14 For he himself is our shalom—he has made us both one and has broken down the m<chitzah which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create In union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus killing in himself that enmity.​

17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby, 18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.​

19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God’s people and members of God’s family.

Gentiles are grafted into Israel and made to be one people, one new man.

I totally agree that gentile believers are now grafted into Israel. I'm not sure I would say "Torah Community", unless "Torah" is looked at in the broader context and not just the Torah given through Moses. Gentiles are not to be subject to the whole of the Mosaic code, as Acts 15 and Galatians amply testify. I am also troubled if anyone tries to resurrect a wall of division amoung gentile and Jewish believers (as you quoted from Ephesians above).

I also agree that we are not now "lawless", but are subject to God's Law, though God's Law for the Christian is not identical to God's Law given in the Torah through Moses.

Believers can follow Jewish customs and traditions from Torah if they so chose, so long as they're not trying to either say it's necessary for salvation or that it somehow makes them more faithful to God then other believers for doing so. But I think it's an error to make Moses' Torah equivalent to what believers should do today to be faithful to God. Would you agree?

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[CharlesYTK]

"“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” " (Matthew 22:36-40, ESV)

Thanks for the coments. On this one though I would stipulate that Yeshua said that the others hang on these two prinicple, they are key. But the others still hang there. These two do not replace all the others, they support all the others. You see?

 

[DanielRB]

Thanks for the coments. On this one though I would stipulate that Yeshua said that the others hang on these two prinicple, they are key. But the others still hang there. These two do not replace all the others, they support all the others. You see?

Hi Charles,

Good point. However, remember there are specific aspects of the law to which the gentiles werre not subject, such as circumcision, obvservance of specific days and food laws (Col 2:17). These things do not have to be done in order to follow the two greatest commandments.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[CharlesYTK]

Hi Charles,

Good point. However, remember there are specific aspects of the law to which the gentiles werre not subject, such as circumcision, obvservance of specific days and food laws (Col 2:17). These things do not have to be done in order to follow the two greatest commandments.

In Christ,

Daniel

Yes you are correct. However the four initial commandments of Acts 15, 3 of them are Kosher food laws. However they are given to the Gentiles to show separation from Pagan involvement in which these were common factors. Also the Gentiles are told to seek out the synagogues in their own towns and to study Moses (Torah). They were expected to grow in their Torah observance in the areas that did apply to them. Today the Church has tossed out the Torah in toto.

 

[DanielRB]

Yes you are correct. However the four initial commandments of Acts 15, 3 of them are Kosher food laws. However they are given to the Gentiles to show separation from Pagan involvement in which these were common factors. Also the Gentiles are told to seek out the synagogues in their own towns and to study Moses (Torah). They were expected to grow in their Torah observance in the areas that did apply to them. Today the Church has tossed out the Torah in toto.

Hi Charles,

Thanks for your post.

This brings up some questions: first, why was eaten food sacrificed to idols forbidden in Acts 15, but Paul indicates it's no big deal in 1 Cor 8? Second, I'm not sure if I agree that they were told to seek out synagogues--though James talks about Moses being taught, it isn't presented as a command--or even a suggestion--in the letter iteself. Why do you see this as a command for Gentiles to seek out synagogues? Third, on "growing in Torah observance"--the letter specifically says "...lay no other burden on you", indicating that no more of Torah was binding on them. (Of course, the list seems woefully inadequate even from the perspective of one who believes the Mosaic Torah is ended--there is no prohibition to murder, to hate, to steal, etc.) Why do you think only these few items were listed?

My own current understanding of Acts 15 is that the Gentile believers were given instruction on just the areas that would most offend their Jewish brethern in Christ. When Paul talks about meat sacrificed to idols, he emphasizes that though there is nothing wrong with the meat (though according to Moses, it is unclean), if your eating would offend someone, then don't do it.

By the way, I am really enjoying our discussion.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[CharlesYTK]

Hi Charles,

Thanks for your post.

This brings up some questions: first, why was eaten food sacrificed to idols forbidden in Acts 15, but Paul indicates it's no big deal in 1 Cor 8? Second, I'm not sure if I agree that they were told to seek out synagogues--though James talks about Moses being taught, it isn't presented as a command--or even a suggestion--in the letter iteself. Why do you see this as a command for Gentiles to seek out synagogues? Third, on "growing in Torah observance"--the letter specifically says "...lay no other burden on you", indicating that no more of Torah was binding on them. (Of course, the list seems woefully inadequate even from the perspective of one who believes the Mosaic Torah is ended--there is no prohibition to murder, to hate, to steal, etc.) Why do you think only these few items were listed?

My own current understanding of Acts 15 is that the Gentile believers were given instruction on just the areas that would most offend their Jewish brethern in Christ. When Paul talks about meat sacrificed to idols, he emphasizes that though there is nothing wrong with the meat (though according to Moses, it is unclean), if your eating would offend someone, then don't do it.

By the way, I am really enjoying our discussion.

In Christ,

Daniel

Hi Daniel,

We need to look at this in relationship to the new situation that had developed. Gentiles wee flooding into the synagogues. These were pagans, with all sorts of filth and dirt on them (metaphorically speaking). They had uncleaness written all over them. They had not ben raised in a Torah community and Torah home. They had a pagan smell to them. Now by the grace of God they are saved, forgiven and being filled with the spirit and have repented, but have no clue where to go from there. The answer is in the synagogue where the only scriptures exist for each town and where the only instruction from God can be found. They need to be in fellowship in the synagogues (there were no church houses then right) and the new faith is a sect of Judaism and not something separate.

So the decision of Acts 15 is a point of entry. It is what needs to be done in order to get these former pagans into table fellowship with mature Jewish brothers so that they can learn how to live righteous and holy lives. They still need to know what is approved of God and what isn't. Acts 15 is a point of entry, so as to prevent being an offense to the Jews who grew up in a righteous comminity. But it is not the end point, the end of their growing. And yet the apostles can not be burdened with the discipleship of so many new believers. So they are directed to go to the synagogues in their own towns and to be discipled there in Moses,(a way of saying Torah). This is where they are to take up permanent membership anyway, because there was no separation between believers and non-believers. They were all Jews, just as the Pharisees, and Saducees and Eccenes were all Jews and worshipped together. (and there were Gentile converts among all of these as well) They have little differences but are all Jews. So were these new Believers in Messiah. Christianity would not separate until almost 200 years later. And they were never meant to separate at all in my opinion.

[20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

When a person as a new believer is filled with the spirit, they have a thirst for knowing more about God. I am sure you have experienced this. We today may have friends, family or some avenue. But in that day there were no "Christian Family Book stores" to go and pick up a copy of the scrptures. And even if you got a copy, could the average Pagan read? Think of the Eunick on the road, he had a desire and the scriptures yet was having trouble understanding. All of us need discipleship.

The Burden that was not to be aded was formal conversion to Judaism by means of the Rabinical process of conversion which is refered to as Circumcision (a short hand name). By Rabbinical Judaism this circumcision and Mikvah was considered an ethnic change. Man goes in the water, then come out and pops up he's a Jew, in every way. The Rabbi's called this being "Born Again"; remember Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus? Pauls Gospel was centered on the fact that God was bringing Gentiles into faith without requiring them first beoming Jews by conversion. God can do this because by His spirit in us we are born again with a new petagree, a new ethnicity, which makes us part of Israel without Rabbinical conversion. (Eph 2) This is Gods plan to take over the world. It is the promise to Abraham. And God is taking Satans Pagan followers away from him and making an open display of his glorious victory over HaSatan, and the principalities in the heavenly places.

 

[CharlesYTK]

My own current understanding of Acts 15 is that the Gentile believers were given instruction on just the areas that would most offend their Jewish brethern in Christ. When Paul talks about meat sacrificed to idols, he emphasizes that though there is nothing wrong with the meat (though according to Moses, it is unclean), if your eating would offend someone, then don't do it.

There is a great deal more to this issue. But I agree that the first important issue related to act 15 is to prevent offense of the Jews, because Paul does not want to turn Jews away from their own Messiah. And the other this is that all this prohabitions are connected to Pagan worship. All these things take place in the Pagan temple everyday. Bu staying away from these they demonstrate their separation from Paganism.

 

[SPALATIN]

Rev 12: [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Cross reference this w/ Genesis 3 and Kings and Chronicles and you have a pretty good picture.

 

[DanielRB]

Hi Daniel,

We need to look at this in relationship to the new situation that had developed. Gentiles wee flooding into the synagogues. These were pagans, with all sorts of filth and dirt on them (metaphorically speaking). They had uncleaness written all over them. They had not ben raised in a Torah community and Torah home. They had a pagan smell to them. Now by the grace of God they are saved, forgiven and being filled with the spirit and have repented, but have no clue where to go from there. The answer is in the synagogue where the only scriptures exist for each town and where the only instruction from God can be found. They need to be in fellowship in the synagogues (there were no church houses then right) and the new faith is a sect of Judaism and not something separate.

Hi again, Charles,

I agree that the situation in the early Church was fluid. We can't always look to their example because the conditions were different--no New Testament, the Temple still stood, the Church was mainly Jewish, etc. Those conditions are no longer true today.

Yet remember Jesus' harsh words for many who were raised in a Torah-observant community (Pharisees, Scribes, Saducees), and his kind words for those who were filthy sinners: prostitutes, tax collectors, samaritans. Everyone started at ground zero with Jesus; the Torah-observant people were the ones he criticized most.

So the decision of Acts 15 is a point of entry. It is what needs to be done in order to get these former pagans into table fellowship with mature Jewish brothers so that they can learn how to live righteous and holy lives. They still need to know what is approved of God and what isn't. Acts 15 is a point of entry, so as to prevent being an offense to the Jews who grew up in a righteous comminity. But it is not the end point, the end of their growing. And yet the apostles can not be burdened with the discipleship of so many new believers. So they are directed to go to the synagogues in their own towns and to be discipled there in Moses,(a way of saying Torah).

I don't see that. James refers to Moses being preached in Acts 15:21, but the Gentiles are not told to go to Synagouge to hear.

This is where they are to take up permanent membership anyway, because there was no separation between believers and non-believers. They were all Jews, just as the Pharisees, and Saducees and Eccenes were all Jews and worshipped together.

This isn't strictly accurate, Charles. The Essenes, for example, seperated themselves from Temple worship which they considered corrupt. There was a wide tapestry of Judaisms in the first century, and they didn't all get along very well--much like Christians today.

(and there were Gentile converts among all of these as well) They have little differences but are all Jews. So were these new Believers in Messiah. Christianity would not separate until almost 200 years later. And they were never meant to separate at all in my opinion.

The divisions began in Jesus' own lifetime--see John 9:22, 34-35.

[20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

When a person as a new believer is filled with the spirit, they have a thirst for knowing more about God. I am sure you have experienced this. We today may have friends, family or some avenue. But in that day there were no "Christian Family Book stores" to go and pick up a copy of the scrptures. And even if you got a copy, could the average Pagan read? Think of the Eunick on the road, he had a desire and the scriptures yet was having trouble understanding. All of us need discipleship.

The Gentile believers were often drawn from the ranks of the God-fearers who attended Synagogues but were not Jews. However, it became evident that the Church needed its own leadership to shepherd new believers--Elders were appointed, seperate from the Elders of the Synagouge (Acts 14:23--before the Jerusalem council, and in Galatia.) The Jerusalem Council did not want the non-Messianic Synagogues to be responsible for shepherding new believers. Some of these Elders were no doubt drawn from the non-Messianic Synagogues and probably had a good background in the Scriptures.

The Burden that was not to be aded was formal conversion to Judaism by means of the Rabinical process of conversion which is refered to as Circumcision (a short hand name). By Rabbinical Judaism this circumcision and Mikvah was considered an ethnic change. Man goes in the water, then come out and pops up he's a Jew, in every way. The Rabbi's called this being "Born Again"; remember Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus? Pauls Gospel was centered on the fact that God was bringing Gentiles into faith without requiring them first beoming Jews by conversion. God can do this because by His spirit in us we are born again with a new petagree, a new ethnicity, which makes us part of Israel without Rabbinical conversion. (Eph 2) This is Gods plan to take over the world. It is the promise to Abraham. And God is taking Satans Pagan followers away from him and making an open display of his glorious victory over HaSatan, and the principalities in the heavenly places.

I agree that formal conversion to Judaism was what was not necessary; and ethnic destinctions and barriers were not to be recognized in the Church (Eph 2:14).

In Christ,

Daniel