Credo or Paedo?

[Clare73]

In Ephesians 1:9 μυστήριον (Greek text) = sacramentum (Vulgate) = mystery (KJV)
What more need be said.

Yes, an example of what I presented; i.e., Jerome translating the Greek musterion as "sacramentum" instead of "mysterium" which is what it actually is in Latin.To be linguisticly correct, yours above should be:

In Ephesians 1:9 μυστήριον (Greek text) = mysterium (Latin) = mystery (KJV).

Jerome took the liberty to change the Latin language (mysterium to sacramentum) to bring it into agreement with Catholic doctrine.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, an example of what I presented; i.e., Jerome translating the Greek musterion as "sacramentum" instead of "mysterium" which is what it actually is in Latin.To be linguisticly correct, yours above should be:

In Ephesians 1:9 μυστήριον (Greek text) = mysterium (Latin) = mystery (KJV).

Jerome took the liberty to change the Latin language (mysterium to sacramentum) to bring it into agreement with Catholic doctrine.

I apologise if this sounds harsh to you, but I think saint Jerome knew Koine Greek better than you and he knew Latin better than you; you are not really in a position to correct his Latin, are you?

 

[Clare73]

I apologise if this sounds harsh to you, but I think saint Jerome knew Koine Greek better than you and he knew Latin better than you; you are not really in a position to correct his Latin, are you?

No apology needed. . .

Any Latin dictionary is in a position to correct Jerome's Latin.

 

[Valletta]

Yes, an example of what I presented; i.e., Jerome translating the Greek musterion as "sacramentum" instead of "mysterium" which is what it actually is in Latin.To be linguisticly correct, yours above should be:

In Ephesians 1:9 μυστήριον (Greek text) = mysterium (Latin) = mystery (KJV).

Jerome took the liberty to change the Latin language (mysterium to sacramentum) to bring it into agreement with Catholic doctrine.

Some did simply use the transliteration to mysterium, but Jerome chose the best translation for the word. At that time it was not applied to what we today call the "sacraments." Realize that the meaning of a word changes over time.

 

[concretecamper]

Yes, an example of what I presented; i.e., Jerome translating the Greek musterion as "sacramentum" instead of "mysterium" which is what it actually is in Latin.To be linguisticly correct, yours above should be:

In Ephesians 1:9 μυστήριον (Greek text) = mysterium (Latin) = mystery (KJV).

Jerome took the liberty to change the Latin language (mysterium to sacramentum) to bring it into agreement with Catholic doctrine.

That's the explanation? Jerome intentionally mistranslated, haha. Btw, non Catholics don't agree with that weak argument either. Who knows what else Jerome intentionally changed. It's better question everything in scripture now

A Greek Lexicon for Christmas makes one able to rival Jerome, good grief

 

[Clare73]

Some did simply use the transliteration to mysterium, but Jerome chose the best translation for the word.

So what translation for Greek musterion is better in the Latin than mysterium?

At that time it was not applied to what we today call the "sacraments."

Interesting. . .

Realize that the meaning of a word changes over time.

"Sacramentum" is the way it is being presented in this discussion.

Does truth change over time?

 

[Clare73]

That's the explanation? Jerome intentionally mistranslated, haha. Btw, non Catholics don't agree with that weak argument either.

Linguisticly, it's pretty black and white. . .Gr: musterion = L. mysterium, and not L. sacramentum.

Who knows what else Jerome intentionally changed.

It would be simple to find out, just take the Greek text and compare its translation in the Latin text.

It's better question everything in scripture now

A Greek Lexicon for Christmas makes one able to rival Jerome, good grief

Strawman. . .good grief!

Who has ever said the word "Christmas" is in the NT text?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No apology needed. . .

Any Latin dictionary is in a position to correct Jerome's Latin.

That's such a brash claim. Do you speak Latin? Are you a fluent colloquial Koine Greek speaker? Saint Jerome was. Maybe he knows better than you? I am inclined to believe that saint Jerome does know better.

For general information I offer this:

Saint Jerome used the Latin word "sacramentum" in his translation of the Bible, the Vulgate. The word "sacramentum" is used throughout the Vulgate to translate several different words in the Greek and Hebrew texts, including "mysterion" and "berith."​

​

For example, Saint Jerome writes,​

• Ephesians 1:9 ut notum faceret nobis sacramentum voluntatis suae secundum bonum placitum eius quod proposuit in eo
• Ephesians 3:3 quoniam secundum revelationem notum mihi factum est sacramentum sicut supra scripsi in brevi
• Ephesians 5:32 sacramentum hoc magnum est ego autem dico in Christo et in ecclesia
• 1 Timothy 3:16 et manifeste magnum est pietatis sacramentum quod manifestatum est in carne iustificatum est in spiritu apparuit angelis praedicatum est gentibus creditum est in mundo adsumptum est in gloria
• Revelation 1:20 sacramentum septem stellarum quas vidisti in dextera mea et septem candelabra aurea septem stellae angeli sunt septem ecclesiarum et candelabra septem septem ecclesiae sunt
• Revelation 17:7 et dixit mihi angelus quare miraris ego tibi dicam sacramentum mulieris et bestiae quae portat eam quae habet capita septem et decem cornua

​

 

[Valletta]

So what translation for Greek musterion is better in the Latin than mysterium?

Interesting. . .

"Sacramentum" is the way it is being presented in this discussion.

Does truth change over time?

Jerome, a fantastic linguist, translated the words to the best of his ability. Now his translation was roughly 300 years or so after the books of the Bible were written. As I said, the meaning of words changes, even in our country where communications from area to area are so much better. If you said today that "He was gay" that would have a completely different meaning than it would have in the United States less than a hundred years ago. Both words we are discussing were used differently over time. In fact, if you read Tertullian you will see how he specifically pointed out the huge difference between the Christian associated word "sacramenta" and the word "mysteria" which he associated with pagan rituals. Jerome had a better understanding of the two languages during his time than people trying to second guess him over 1600 years later.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No apology needed. . .

Any Latin dictionary is in a position to correct Jerome's Latin.

You want to use a modern dictionary to correct Jerome's own fluency in the Latin tongue?

This is like correcting your English on the basis of what some future dictionary of English might look like--that's an absurd proposition.

When Jerome chose sacramentum to translate mysterion he did so because these two words were understood to mean the same thing. Latin speaking Christians used sacramentum where Greek speaking Christians used mysterion, and at the same time Syriac speaking Christians used 'eraza to mean the same.

This is why the word "sacrament" gets used to refer to more than just "the Sacraments" (whether a church counts 2, 3, or 7, or more). Jesus Christ is Himself called the chief Sacrament. It's why "sacramentals" are spoken of in Western Christian theology, to refer to all manner of things, such as the oil used in Holy Unction.

The word "sacrament" refers to sacred mystery, with "mystery" having the meaning of a thing revealed or brought to light. Specifically "sacrament", or the idea of the sacramental, being that God acts and works through means. The Bible itself is sacramental, for the Scriptures are the means through which God has given us His word, written by human authors but divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and therefore the Scriptures are properly called the word of God rather than the words of men.

The Incarnation is the Sacrament of Sacraments, the very Revelation of God and means of our salvation. It is the Mystery of Mysteries, the central and sacred truth. God became man.

The language of sacrament is as biblical as the language of Trinity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

That's such a brash claim. Do you speak Latin? Are you a fluent colloquial Koine Greek speaker? Saint Jerome was. Maybe he knows better than you? I am inclined to believe that saint Jerome does know better.

For general information I offer this:

Saint Jerome used the Latin word "sacramentum" in his translation of the Bible, the Vulgate. The word "sacramentum" is used throughout the Vulgate to translate several different words in the Greek and Hebrew texts, including "mysterion" and "berith."​

Agreed. . .and it is a mistranslation of the Greek musterion, which is the Latin mysterium., not the Latin sacramentum, which is being used to justify an extra-Biblical theology.

For example, Saint Jerome writes,​

• Ephesians 1:9 ut notum faceret nobis sacramentum voluntatis suae secundum bonum placitum eius quod proposuit in eo
• Ephesians 3:3 quoniam secundum revelationem notum mihi factum est sacramentum sicut supra scripsi in brevi
• Ephesians 5:32 sacramentum hoc magnum est ego autem dico in Christo et in ecclesia
• 1 Timothy 3:16 et manifeste magnum est pietatis sacramentum quod manifestatum est in carne iustificatum est in spiritu apparuit angelis praedicatum est gentibus creditum est in mundo adsumptum est in gloria
• Revelation 1:20 sacramentum septem stellarum quas vidisti in dextera mea et septem candelabra aurea septem stellae angeli sunt septem ecclesiarum et candelabra septem septem ecclesiae sunt
• Revelation 17:7 et dixit mihi angelus quare miraris ego tibi dicam sacramentum mulieris et bestiae quae portat eam quae habet capita septem et decem cornua

Agreed. . .and the NT texts, composed in Greek, use musterion (i.e., Latin: mysterium) in the above where you see sacramentum used in the Latin Vulgate.

The sacraments are nowhere presented as mysteries in the original Greek NT, where musterion
does not mean "imcomprehensible," as in English "mystery,"
nor did it refer to "pagan mystery religions" as in Latin "mysterium," but rather
it means "secret," never before revealed (Ro 16:25; 1 Co 2:7, 1 Co 4:1, Col 1:26-27), as in the secrets of

the death of Christ, as secret wisdom (1 Co 2:1-2, Eph 6:19, Col 2:2-3, 4:3),
God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9),
the inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Eph 3:3-4:9),
the church as the bride and body of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),
the change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Co 15:51),
the power of lawlessness at work (2 Th 2:7),
the truths of the faith (1Ti 3:9),
godliness (1Ti 3:16), Christianity is not a mystery of philosophy or speculation.

Jerome misapplied "sacramentum" to the Greek "musterion,"
which application (sacramentum) is nowhere found in the Greek NT use of "musterion" (Latin mysterium).

 

[Valletta]

Agreed. . .and it is a mistranslation of the Greek musterion, which is the Latin mysterium., not the Latin sacramentum.

Agreed. . .and the NT texts, composed in Greek, use musterion (i.e., Latin: mysterium) in the above where you see sacramentum used in the Latin Vulgate.


The sacraments are nowhere presented as mysteries in the original Greek NT, where musterion does not mean "imcomprehensable," it means "secret," never before revealed (Ro 16:25; 1 Co 2:7, 1 Co 4:1, Col:1:26-27), as in the secrets of

the death of Christ, as secret wisdom (1 Co 2:1-2, Eph 6:19, Col 2:2-3, 4:3),
God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9),
the inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Eph 3:3-4:9),
the church as the bride and body of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),
the change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Co 15:51),
the power of lawlessness at work (2 Th 2:7),
the truths of the faith (1Ti 3:9),
godliness (1Ti 3:16), Christianity is not a mystery of philosophy or speculation.

Jerome misapplied "sacramentum" to the Greek "musterion,"
which application (sacramentum) is nowhere found in the Greek NT use of "musterion" (Latin mysterium).

Once again you are confusing transliteration with translation.

 

[Clare73]

You want to use a modern dictionary to correct Jerome's own fluency in the Latin tongue?

It's not about the age of dictionaries, it's about linguistics,
which common roots are still evident in the words musterion, mysterium, mystery.

You've got a long way to go before you have demonstrated that the Greek musterion translates sacramentum instead of mysterium in the Latin.
And then you have a long way to go before you have Biblically demonstrated that "sacraments" are anywhere presented in the NT as mysteries.

This is like correcting your English on the basis of what some future dictionary of English might look like--that's an absurd proposition.
When Jerome chose sacramentum to translate mysterion he did so because these two words were understood to mean the same thing. Latin speaking Christians used sacramentum where Greek speaking Christians used mysterion, and at the same time Syriac speaking Christians used 'eraza to mean the same.

This is why the word "sacrament" gets used to refer to more than just "the Sacraments" (whether a church counts 2, 3, or 7, or more). Jesus Christ is Himself called the chief Sacrament.

Where do you find Christ presented as "sacrament" in Christian doctrine. . .or the NT?
Sacraments are a rite, not an appellation.

The word "sacrament" refers to sacred mystery, with "mystery" having the meaning of a thing revealed or brought to light. Specifically "sacrament", or the idea of the sacramental, being that God acts and works through means.

That action is not a former secret newly revealed. . .that is seen throughout the OT, e.g., circumcision, animal sacrifices, cleansing rites.

The Bible itself is sacramental, for the Scriptures are the means through which God has given us His word,

That is some serious morphing of theology by grammatical misapplication,
the meaning of the Greek musterion (new revelation) morphed to
the meaning of the Latin sacramentum (God acts through means), now presented as meaning the same thing.

written by human authors but divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit, and therefore the Scriptures are properly called the word of God rather than the words of men.

The Incarnation is the Sacrament of Sacraments, the very Revelation of God and means of our salvation. It is the Mystery of Mysteries, the central and sacred truth. God became man.

Only by change of the Biblical meaning of musterion from "new revelation" to "God acting through means" (sacramentum).

The language of sacrament is as biblical as the language of Trinity.

Au contraire. . .

Only by morphing what is not presented in Scripture (musterion--from "new revelation," to sacramentum--"God acts through means")
while Trinity is presented in Scripture, where the NT shows

1) three separate agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the work of salvation and atonement:
----a) at its beginning (Lk 1:35) in the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Mt 3:16-17),
----b) in its completion (Ac 2:38-39, Ro 8:26, 1 Co 12:4-13, Eph 1:3-14, Eph 2:13-22, 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2);
----c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (Jn 3:1-15),
----d) atonement (Heb 9:14);

2) Father, Son and Holy Spirit bracketed together as the triune name of God (Mt 28:19, 1 Co 12:4-6, 2 Co13:14, Rev 1:4-5);

3) the following set of relationships:
----a) Son is subject to the Father, being sent by the Father in the Father's name (Jn 5:23, 36, 43),
----b) Spirit is subject to the Father, being sent by the Father in the Son's name (Jn 14:26),
----c) Spirit is subject to the Son as well as the Father, being sent by the Son as well as the Father (Jn 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

Sacramentum enjoys no such Biblical evidence in support of it, it is all human assertion and morphing.

 

[Clare73]

Once again you are confusing transliteration with translation.

Once again, strawman. . .

The issue is not a misunderstanding of "transliteration" vs. "translation."
The issue is transliteration of sacramentum (sacred) for musterion (mystery) which is man's alteration of the text,
which alteration is the issue, not the false assertion of misunderstanding "transliteration" vs. "translation."

 

[Clare73]

Jerome, a fantastic linguist, translated the words to the best of his ability. Now his translation was roughly 300 years or so after the books of the Bible were written. As I said, the meaning of words changes, even in our country where communications from area to area are so much better. If you said today that "He was gay" that would have a completely different meaning than it would have in the United States less than a hundred years ago. Both words we are discussing were used differently over time. In fact, if you read Tertullian you will see how he specifically pointed out the huge difference between the Christian associated word "sacramenta" and the word "mysteria" which he associated with pagan rituals.

Irrelevant what Tertullian associated "mysteria" with. . .

The issue is what the NT associates "musterion" with. . .there is no need to go searching the planet to find the NT meaning of musterion,
it's right there in the Greek text itself; i.e., secrets (Ro 16:25; 1 Co 2:7, 1 Co 4:1, Col 1:26-27), newly revealed in the NT, of:

the death of Christ, as secret wisdom (1 Co 2:1-2, Eph 6:19, Col 2:2-3, Col 4:3),
God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9),
the inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Eph 3:3-4:9),
the church as the bride and body of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),
the change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Co 15:51),
the power of lawlessness at work (2 Th 2:7),
the truths of the faith (1Ti 3:9),
godliness (1Ti 3:16), the mystery of Christianity is not a mystery of philosophy or speculation, but of godliness.

Jerome misapplied "sacramentum" to the Greek "musterion,"
which application (sacramentum) is nowhere found in the Greek NT use of musterion (Latin mysterium, not sacramentum).

Jerome had a better understanding of the two languages during his time than people trying to second guess him over 1600 years later.

Tertullian's mistaken understanding of mysteria in the Greek NT's musterion is not about modern "second guessing" of
the ancient "better understanding of the language,"
it's about misuderstanding the Greek NT's musterion, and use of another word (sacramentum) to take its place,
which changes the NT meaning of musterion from "newly revealed" to "God acts through means."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Irrelevant what Tertullian associated "mysteria" with. . .

The issue is what the NT associates "musterion" with. . .there is no need to go searching the planet to find the NT meaning of musterion,
it's right there in the Greek text itself; i.e., secrets (Ro 16:25; 1 Co 2:7, 1 Co 4:1, Col 1:26-27), newly revealed in the NT, of:

the death of Christ, as secret wisdom (1 Co 2:1-2, Eph 6:19, Col 2:2-3, Col 4:3),
God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9),
the inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Eph 3:3-4:9),
the church as the bride and body of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),
the change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Co 15:51),
the power of lawlessness at work (2 Th 2:7),
the truths of the faith (1Ti 3:9),
godliness (1Ti 3:16), Christianity is not a mystery of philosophy or speculation.

Jerome misapplied "sacramentum" to the Greek "musterion,"
which application (sacramentum) is nowhere found in the Greek NT use of musterion (Latin mysterium, not sacramentum).

Strong's:

mustérion: a mystery or secret doctrine
Original Word: μυστήριον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: mustérion
Phonetic Spelling: (moos-tay'-ree-on)
Definition: a mystery or secret doctrine
Usage: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary; in the NT: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation.

3466 mystḗrion (the root of the English term, "mystery") – mystery. In the Bible, a "mystery" (3466 /mystḗrion) is not something unknowable. Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it.

If Jerome was correct that over 300 years, as someone seemed to be saying a few posts back, the word μυστήριον was better represented by the Latin "sacramentum" than the Latin "mysterium" during Jerome's time, the English should revert to the Greek meaning and not to the modern use of the Latin word, "sacramentum". Simple.

 

[Valletta]

Irrelevant what Tertullian associated "mysteria" with. . .

The issue is what the NT associates "musterion" with. . .there is no need to go searching the planet to find the NT meaning of musterion,
it's right there in the Greek text itself; i.e., secrets (Ro 16:25; 1 Co 2:7, 1 Co 4:1, Col 1:26-27), newly revealed in the NT, of:

the death of Christ, as secret wisdom (1 Co 2:1-2, Eph 6:19, Col 2:2-3, Col 4:3),
God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9),
the inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Eph 3:3-4:9),
the church as the bride and body of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32),
the change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Co 15:51),
the power of lawlessness at work (2 Th 2:7),
the truths of the faith (1Ti 3:9),
godliness (1Ti 3:16), the mystery of Christianity is not a mystery of philosophy or speculation, but of godliness.

Jerome misapplied "sacramentum" to the Greek "musterion,"
which application (sacramentum) is nowhere found in the Greek NT use of musterion (Latin mysterium, not sacramentum).


Tertullian's mistaken understanding of mysteria in the Greek NT's musterion is not about modern "second guessing" of
the ancient "better understanding of the language,"
it's about misuderstanding the Greek NT's musterion, and use of another word (sacramentum) to take its place,
which changes the NT meaning of musterion from "newly revealed" to "God acts through means."

Strong's:

mustérion: a mystery or secret doctrine
Original Word: μυστήριον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: mustérion
Phonetic Spelling: (moos-tay'-ree-on)
Definition: a mystery or secret doctrine
Usage: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary; in the NT: the counsels of God, once hidden but now revealed in the Gospel or some fact thereof; the Christian revelation generally; particular truths or details of the Christian revelation.

3466 mystḗrion (the root of the English term, "mystery") – mystery. In the Bible, a "mystery" (3466 /mystḗrion) is not something unknowable. Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it.

If Jerome was correct that over 300 years, as someone seemed to be saying a few posts back, the word μυστήριον was better represented by the Latin "sacramentum" than the Latin "mysterium" during Jerome's time, the English should revert to the Greek meaning and not to the modern use of the Latin word, "sacramentum". Simple.

The Latin word translation at the time of Jerome was indeed the closest to the Greek meaning at that time. Today's translation would theoretically not need to use either word if there was a word closer to the original meaning. The mistake made by some others around that time was in transliterating rather than translating.

 

[Valletta]

The Latin word translation at the time of Jerome was indeed the closest to the Greek meaning at that time. Today's translation would theoretically not need to use either word if there was a word closer to the original meaning. The mistake made by some others around that time was in transliterating rather than translating. As per my example, translating the English of a hundred years ago from "He is gay" to "He is gay" would not be the best translation, even though the spelling of the word translated is close to or even exactly the same. Over time sometimes the same word can even mean the very opposite of the original word.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Latin word translation at the time of Jerome was indeed the closest to the Greek meaning at that time. Today's translation would theoretically not need to use either word if there was a word closer to the original meaning. The mistake made by some others around that time was in transliterating rather than translating.

The mistake of transliterating from what to what at what time? Are you saying someone made the mistake of transliterating from Jerome's Latin to the English "Sacrament", instead of translating from the original Greek? That's what seems to me to have happened.

 

[Valletta]

The mistake of transliterating from what to what at what time? Are you saying someone made the mistake of transliterating from Jerome's Latin to the English "Sacrament", instead of translating from the original Greek? That's what seems to me to have happened.

No. Words translated may have the same meaning or not. In this case the Latin "mysterium" referred to pagan practices while "sacramentum" did not.