CharlesYTK said:
It is understood that there are parts of Torah that can not be applied in this day as you have mentioned Noahs instructions. Another is the preisthood for Temple service. There is no temple or Tabernacle at this time so we need not be concerned with that. Yet there are other basic principles that can be established by things that are given. Additionally there is an eternal framework within Torah. I believe the Ten commands are very close to these. They predate the code of Moshe. For example we see that Noah understood the difference between clean and unclean, and Caine and Able knew about proper sacrifice, as did Abraham. And Speaking of Abraham: he is the father of all those who are saved through faith. and yet we have this testimony concerning him:
Gen 26: [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Abraham understood this eternal core of Torah even before Moshe received it.
Hi Charles,
Yet it is clear that Abraham did certain things that would, under the code given through Moses, be worthy of death, such as marrying his half-sister (Gen 20:12). Most Christians would agree that the prohibition against incest was a timeless principal that was not aborgated, even if we aren't under the Mosaic code. I still don't have an answer for this one, but I think it's something important to remember, for God
never condemned Abraham's choice in a wife.
As to clean/unclean: since before the flood, humanity was
only supposed to eat plant life, the only distinction between clean and unclean would be in regard to sacrifice, not food. Indeed, after the flood, Noah and his family were given permission to eat
all meat (Gen 9:3), not just all clean meat. I think clean/unclean were primarily in reference to sacrifice, and only after the Mosaic code were they also applicable to what can be eaten and what was forbidden.
I agree there is something eternal underlying Moses' Torah. The Ten Commandments are a pretty good summation, but I think Jesus pointed out what he viewed as the best summation of Torah:
"
Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law? And he said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets. " (Matthew 22:36-40, ESV)
Even when relating parts of the Ten Commandments, Jesus never referred to them in toto, only a few select ones:
"
And behold, a man came up to him, saying, Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life? And he said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments. He said to him, Which ones? And Jesus said, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to him, All these I have kept. What do I still lack? Jesus said to him, If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions." (Matthew 19:16-22, ESV)
Again, I would say that much of the instruction given through Moses can be used to gain insight on God's character and eternal nature; but I don't believe that all of Torah--even excluding the parts that require a tabernacle or temple--is binding on today's Christian.
CharlesYTK said:
The Church long ago lost sight of the fact that Gentiles who were Pagans before were grafted into Israel and into her covenants and become part of the Torah community. And not the other way around. God didn't change his mind about Israel and His Torah and make all Men into lawless Pagans. He make both Jew and Gentiles into on redeemed people. This was the Gospel of Paul.
Eph 2:
13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiahs blood. 14 For he himself is our shalomhe has made us both one and has broken down the m<chitzah which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create In union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus killing in himself that enmity.
17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby, 18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with Gods people and members of Gods family.
Gentiles are grafted into Israel and made to be one people, one new man.
I totally agree that gentile believers are now grafted into Israel. I'm not sure I would say "Torah Community", unless "Torah" is looked at in the broader context and not just the Torah given through Moses. Gentiles are not to be subject to the whole of the Mosaic code, as Acts 15 and Galatians amply testify. I am also troubled if anyone tries to resurrect a wall of division amoung gentile and Jewish believers (as you quoted from Ephesians above).
I also agree that we are not now "lawless", but are subject to God's Law, though God's Law for the Christian is not identical to God's Law given in the Torah through Moses.
Believers can follow Jewish customs and traditions from Torah if they so chose, so long as they're not trying to either say it's necessary for salvation or that it somehow makes them more faithful to God then other believers for doing so. But I think it's an error to make Moses' Torah equivalent to what believers should do today to be faithful to God. Would you agree?
In Christ,
Daniel