Credo or Paedo?

Xeno.of.athens

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In a protestant context is the following a fair summary?

For credobaptists, baptism is a public profession of faith in Jesus Christ and a symbol of the individual's union with Christ and identification with the Christian community. Credobaptists, also known as advocates for believers' baptism, hold the belief that baptism is only to be performed on individuals who have made a personal confession of faith in Jesus Christ and many also require the the baptised person has demonstrated a change in their life as a result of that faith. In other words, credobaptists believe that baptism should follow a credible profession of faith, and not be based on family tradition or covenantal relationship.

Baptism is seen as an outward expression of an inward change and a testimony to others of the individual's faith in Jesus. It is seen as an act of obedience to Christ and a way to publicly identify with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. In credobaptist traditions, baptism is typically performed by full immersion in water, representing the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, as well as the believer's death to their old self and the beginning of a new life in Christ.

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For paedobaptists, baptism is a sacrament that signifies the initiation of an individual into the covenant community of the church. Paedobaptists, also known as advocates for infant baptism, hold the belief that baptism should be administered to both believers and their children, as a sign of God's covenant with His people.

In paedobaptist traditions, baptism is seen as a continuation of the Old Testament practice of circumcision, which was performed on male infants as a sign of God's covenant with Abraham and his descendants. Similarly, baptism is seen as a sign of God's covenant with believers and their children, symbolizing their inclusion in the people of God and their reception of the spiritual blessings of salvation.

For paedobaptists, baptism is not just a symbol of personal faith, but also a sign of the individual's participation in the larger community of faith and their membership in the church. It is seen as a way to pass on the faith from generation to generation and to publicly declare the individual's connection to the wider body of Christ. In paedobaptist traditions, baptism is typically performed by pouring or sprinkling water on the head, representing the cleansing and renewing power of the Holy Spirit.

-----

Herman Hoeksema wrote a book called "Believers and their Seed" which is a theological treatise on the subject of baptism and the covenant relationship between God and His people.

In the book, Hoeksema argues that the Bible teaches a covenant of grace, in which God establishes a covenant relationship with His people and extends the blessings of salvation to them and their children. He argues that this covenant is administered through the sacrament of baptism, which is a sign and seal of the individual's inclusion in the covenant community of the church.

Hoeksema asserts that the New Testament teachings on baptism are consistent with the Old Testament practices of circumcision, and that baptism should be administered to the children of believers as a sign of God's covenant with them. He argues that baptism is not merely a symbol of personal faith, but a sign of the individual's connection to the wider body of Christ and their membership in the church.

Overall, "Believer's and Their Seed" is a robust defence of paedobaptist theology and a critique of credobaptist views on baptism. It offers a comprehensive understanding of the significance of baptism in the life of the believer and the church and provides a biblical basis for the practice of baptizing the children of believers.
 

BobRyan

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In a protestant context is the following a fair summary?

For credobaptists, baptism is a public profession of faith in Jesus Christ and a symbol of the individual's union with Christ and identification with the Christian community. Credobaptists, also known as advocates for believers' baptism, hold the belief that baptism is only to be performed on individuals who have made a personal confession of faith in Jesus Christ

Indeed -
Mark 16:15 “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 The one who has believed and is baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned. "

as opposed to "the one who has not repented but is baptized"

Peter says this in Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “ Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As opposed to "be baptized - whether you repent or not"

and many also require the the baptised person has demonstrated a change in their life as a result of that faith.

For example - the choice to follow Christ in baptism

In other words, credobaptists believe that baptism should follow a credible profession of faith,

True: Holding strictly to Peter's teaching in Acts 2 and Christ's teaching in Mark 16.

Baptism is seen as an outward expression of an inward change and a testimony to others of the individual's faith in Jesus. It is seen as an act of obedience to Christ and a way to publicly identify with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
True.
In credobaptist traditions, baptism is typically performed by full immersion in water, representing the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, as well as the believer's death to their old self and the beginning of a new life in Christ.

Inline with Paul's teaching in Romans 6

Rom 6: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin​
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For paedobaptists, baptism is a sacrament that signifies the initiation of an individual into the covenant

Agreed - two very different concepts.
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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Here are three more differences that are worth noting:

(1) Baptism for those who are strictly credobaptists is individual-oriented, whereas for those who are paedobaptists it is family-oriented (biological family and covenant family). An important difference in focus.

(2) Important: Both sides affirm believers baptism. The difference is that one side rejects the baptizing of children (who aren't old enough to make a credible profession of faith) while the other side does not.

(3) There are two kinds of paedobaptist: (a) those for whom the sacrament cleanses us from our sin (e.g., Roman Catholic) and (b) those for whom it is a sign and seal of the covenant of grace by which a person is solemnly admitted into the covenant community (e.g., Reformed).

It's also worth noting that paedobaptists are alone in viewing baptism as a sacrament.



Edited: Changed the wording to take into consideration @BobRyan's fair criticism.
 
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Clare73

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Here are three more differences that are worth noting:

(1) Baptism for those who are strictly credobaptists is individual-oriented, whereas for those who are paedobaptists it is family-oriented (biological family and covenant family). An important difference in focus.

(2) Important: Both sides affirm believers baptism. The difference is that one side rejects the baptizing of children while the other does not.

(3) There are two kinds of paedobaptist: (a) those for whom the sacrament cleanses us from our sin (e.g., Roman Catholic) and (b) those for whom it is a sign and seal of the covenant of grace by which a person is solemnly admitted into the covenant community (e.g., Reformed).

It's also worth noting that paedobaptists are alone in viewing baptism as a sacrament.
Where does Ro 6 (dead to sin and alive in Christ) fit in with infant baptism of paedobaptists?
 
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BobRyan

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Here are three more differences that are worth noting:

(1) Baptism for those who are strictly credobaptists is individual-oriented, whereas for those who are paedobaptists it is family-oriented (biological family and covenant family). An important difference in focus.

(2) Important: Both sides affirm believers baptism. The difference is that one side rejects the baptizing of children while the other does not.
Both sides baptize children - but both sides do not baptize infants.

Both sides allow believer's baptism - but one side requires it.
(3) There are two kinds of paedobaptist: (a) those for whom the sacrament cleanses us from our sin (e.g., Roman Catholic) and (b) those for whom it is a sign and seal of the covenant of grace by which a person is solemnly admitted into the covenant community (e.g., Reformed).
Are the "seal of covenant of grace" folks talking about Mark 16 and Acts 2 when they say that about infants?

Mark 16:15 “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 The one who has believed and is baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned. "


Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “ Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
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BobRyan

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Where does Ro 6 (dead to sin and alive in Christ) fit in with infant baptism of paedobaptists?
Or "buried with Him in baptism" where the person who reads that is supposed to recall a prior moment where they made a decision and went through an experience.
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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Where does [Rom 6] (dead to sin and alive in Christ) fit in with infant baptism of paedobaptists?

Your question is too vague for me to properly answer. Would you specify or narrow down your question for me?
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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Both sides baptize children - but both sides do not baptize infants.

Fair point. Well spotted.

I said children because we baptize more than just infants and I was trying to capture that. (For example, my oldest was almost four years old when we joined our Reformed church—definitely not an infant.) But, you're right, strictly credobaptist do baptize children who are old enough to make a credible profession of faith.


Both sides allow believer's baptism - but one side requires it.

I am not aware of either side NOT requiring it. Both my old credobaptist church required it and my new paedobaptist church requires it. Which side do you have in mind that doesn't require it?
 
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concretecamper

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In a protestant context is the following a fair summary?

For credobaptists, baptism is a public profession of faith in Jesus Christ and a symbol of the individual's union with Christ and identification with the Christian community. Credobaptists, also known as advocates for believers' baptism, hold the belief that baptism is only to be performed on individuals who have made a personal confession of faith in Jesus Christ and many also require the the baptised person has demonstrated a change in their life as a result of that faith. In other words, credobaptists believe that baptism should follow a credible profession of faith, and not be based on family tradition or covenantal relationship.

Baptism is seen as an outward expression of an inward change and a testimony to others of the individual's faith in Jesus. It is seen as an act of obedience to Christ and a way to publicly identify with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. In credobaptist traditions, baptism is typically performed by full immersion in water, representing the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, as well as the believer's death to their old self and the beginning of a new life in Christ.

-----

For paedobaptists, baptism is a sacrament that signifies the initiation of an individual into the covenant community of the church. Paedobaptists, also known as advocates for infant baptism, hold the belief that baptism should be administered to both believers and their children, as a sign of God's covenant with His people.

In paedobaptist traditions, baptism is seen as a continuation of the Old Testament practice of circumcision, which was performed on male infants as a sign of God's covenant with Abraham and his descendants. Similarly, baptism is seen as a sign of God's covenant with believers and their children, symbolizing their inclusion in the people of God and their reception of the spiritual blessings of salvation.

For paedobaptists, baptism is not just a symbol of personal faith, but also a sign of the individual's participation in the larger community of faith and their membership in the church. It is seen as a way to pass on the faith from generation to generation and to publicly declare the individual's connection to the wider body of Christ. In paedobaptist traditions, baptism is typically performed by pouring or sprinkling water on the head, representing the cleansing and renewing power of the Holy Spirit.

-----

Herman Hoeksema wrote a book called "Believers and their Seed" which is a theological treatise on the subject of baptism and the covenant relationship between God and His people.

In the book, Hoeksema argues that the Bible teaches a covenant of grace, in which God establishes a covenant relationship with His people and extends the blessings of salvation to them and their children. He argues that this covenant is administered through the sacrament of baptism, which is a sign and seal of the individual's inclusion in the covenant community of the church.

Hoeksema asserts that the New Testament teachings on baptism are consistent with the Old Testament practices of circumcision, and that baptism should be administered to the children of believers as a sign of God's covenant with them. He argues that baptism is not merely a symbol of personal faith, but a sign of the individual's connection to the wider body of Christ and their membership in the church.

Overall, "Believer's and Their Seed" is a robust defence of paedobaptist theology and a critique of credobaptist views on baptism. It offers a comprehensive understanding of the significance of baptism in the life of the believer and the church and provides a biblical basis for the practice of baptizing the children of believers.
Additionally, Baptism is a free gift from God, available to infants as well as those not mentally able to understand the graces received from Baptism. We don't need to do any work to be worthy of Baptism. Praise Jesus!
 
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Malleeboy

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Not all credobaptist are symbolic only. Church of Christ and some non American Baptists hold a view of baptism being effective.
As examples of Baptists that held to effective baptism Wheeler-Robinson, Bruce Milne in "Know the Truth" (a fairly standard evangelical basic theology primer) and Beasley-Murray to some extant.
 
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Clare73

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Your question is too vague for me to properly answer. Would you specify or narrow down your question for me?
Ro 6 presents baptism as our dying to sin and raised to live a new life in Christ, our dying to sin as Christ died for sin.

Can this apply to infants in paedobaptism?
 
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concretecamper

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Can anyone find scripture teaching that baptism is a public profession of faith?
I wonder if a 30 year old mentally ill person who cannot make such a profession is worthy of Baptism (according to some who have posted on this thread).
 
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Malleeboy

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Xeno,

I think you're question should be, can anyone find scripture teaching that baptism's only meaning is a public profession of faith? (Although some credo's do hold to the sign and seal language, but I'm not sure many people today understand that a seal is not meaningless, but something without which the thing in question becomes meaningless. (eg Uni degree needs the college seal, laws need the state seal etc)

Surely you accept that Baptism was received at the hands of a fellow believer and intrinsically was a public profession in the both the past reality of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, a public profession that we are dying and being buried with Christ, and a public profession that we believe in the future resurrection and our faith that Christ will raise us.

As I believe that baptism does save, I cannot answer for other credo baptists.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Additionally, Baptism is a free gift from God, available to infants as well as those not mentally able to understand the graces received from Baptism. We don't need to do any work to be worthy of Baptism. Praise Jesus!
Presbyterian (paedobaptists) have some interesting comments about baptism in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

WCF-Baptism.jpg
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Xeno,

I think you're question should be, can anyone find scripture teaching that baptism's only meaning is a public profession of faith? (Although some credo's do hold to the sign and seal language, but I'm not sure many people today understand that a seal is not meaningless, but something without which the thing in question becomes meaningless. (eg Uni degree needs the college seal, laws need the state seal etc)

Surely you accept that Baptism was received at the hands of a fellow believer and intrinsically was a public profession in the both the past reality of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, a public profession that we are dying and being buried with Christ, and a public profession that we believe in the future resurrection and our faith that Christ will raise us.

As I believe that baptism does save, I cannot answer for other credo baptists.
In face to face discussions with a Baptist gentleman, some years ago, it was maintained by the Baptist that Baptism's meaning is as a public profession of faith but I am not sure that such is a widely held view among Baptists.
 
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Malleeboy

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Xeno,

You are correct that public declaration of faith is the most common Baptist view of baptism.

But surely all Christians believe that some part of baptism is a public declaration of faith, you cannot privately get baptized without anyone knowing, the issue is reducing it only that. However we both believe that scripture teaches that it is also the occasion when God acts to connect us to the death, burial and Resurrection of our Lord, washes us in the lather of regeneration and remits our sins, (In Protestant terms, saved by grace, through faith, at baptism, as the how, why and when of regeneration/justification (initial justification for you))
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Xeno,

You are correct that public declaration of faith is the most common Baptist view of baptism.

But surely all Christians believe that some part of baptism is a public declaration of faith, you cannot privately get baptized without anyone knowing, the issue is reducing it only that. However we both believe that scripture teaches that it is also the occasion when God acts to connect us to the death, burial and Resurrection of our Lord, washes us in the lather of regeneration and remits our sins, (In Protestant terms, saved by grace, through faith, at baptism, as the how, why and when of regeneration/justification (initial justification for you))
Baptism is usually done before the church which is less public than John's baptisms in a river before mixed crowds.

Paul baptised the Ephesian disciples who never heard of the Holy Spirit in a place without any mention of the church being present as a crowd of people.
 
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For paedobaptists, baptism is not just a symbol of personal faith, but also a sign of the individual's participation in the larger community of faith and their membership in the church.
That’s a Zwinglian interpretation and is insufficient to describe the sacramental importance of the sacred mystery of Baptism, which like the Eucharist, directly imparts salvific grace.
 
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[Romans 6] presents baptism as our dying to sin and [being] raised to live a new life in Christ, our dying to sin as Christ died for sin.

Can this apply to infants in paedobaptism?

Yes, this applies to all the elect, whether adult or infant. According to the Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF 28:6), the salvific grace promised in this sacrament is not only offered but actually conferred by the Holy Spirit to everyone to whom that grace belongs (i.e., the elect), whether adult or infant—"according to the counsel of God’s own will, in his appointed time." But that baptized infant may grow up and not experience salvation until she is 24 years old. Her baptism was a sign and seal of God's covenant faithfulness but the efficacy of this sacrament is not necessarily "tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered" (ibid.). There is no necessity that one's dying to sin and being raised to new life occur on the day the sacrament which communicates that grace is administered.

And it's no different for credobaptists. I remember hearing as a Baptist countless stories of adults whose experience of salvation was separated by months or years from their baptism—and even people who were baptized but, in the end, never experienced salvation.

As explained by Ligonier Ministries (2017), "Something actually happens in baptism—grace is conferred—but only to the elect, who invariably respond to that grace with repentance and faith, though the time of response does not necessarily coincide with the time of baptism."
 
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