The Trinity

[Albion]

It's so simple.
"Father" is God above us. He is eternal, He exists outside of His creation.

"Son" is God with us. When God (the one and only God) condescends into our dimension, or manifests himself to His creation.

"Holy Spirit" is God (the one and only God) IN us.

It's not 3 persons. It is God manifesting himself.

As has already been noted, that belief--called modalism--was rejected as a heresy long, long ago in church history. It doesn't come close to agreeing with what the Bible tells us of the persona of God, even though it sounds simple and reasonable.

 

[donfish06]

As has already been noted, that belief--called modalism--was rejected as a heresy long, long ago in church history. It doesn't come close to agreeing with what the Bible tells us of the persona of God, even though it sounds simple and reasonable.

That means absolutely nothing. The pharisees rejected Jesus and the Disciples as heretics. Paul stated that he worshipped I'm they way they called heresy.

Show me one time in the Bible that the TRUE way of God was received by the majority? The majority ALWAYS HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL reject the TRUTH in favor of MANS understanding.

 

[donfish06]

As has already been noted, that belief--called modalism--was rejected as a heresy long, long ago in church history. It doesn't come close to agreeing with what the Bible tells us of the persona of God, even though it sounds simple and reasonable.

Also, please show me where it disagrees with scripture. And I will show you 20+ things the Catholic Church does that disagrees with scripture

 

[Albion]

That means absolutely nothing.

If so, where's that leave your guesswork??

Show me one time in the Bible that the TRUE way of God was received by the majority? The majority ALWAYS HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL reject the TRUTH in favor of MANS understanding.

The majority (both in numbers and in history) does not necessarily prove correctness, but it carries a heck of a lot more weight than what some guy on the internet says he figured out all by himself while the rest of Christianity just didn't notice it in the Bible!

 

[Albion]

Also, please show me where it disagrees with scripture. And I will show you 20+ things the Catholic Church does that disagrees with scripture

Why would I care if you show me 20+ things the Catholic Church does that disagrees with scripture?? We're talking about your theory about God being not a Trinity.

 

[donfish06]

If so, where's that leave your guesswork??
The majority (both in numbers and in history) does not necessarily prove correctness, but it carries a heck of a lot more weight than what some guy on the internet says he figured out all by himself while the rest of Christianity just didn't notice it in the Bible!

I suppose that you would consider Paul a heretic...
Ephesians 4:6, 10
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

So, again please show me how the Bible does not support this understanding??

Please show me one time when the majority held any weight? The majority in Scripture has NEVER NOT ONE TIME been correct. King Ahab had 400 prophets all saying the same thing, but guess what? It was ONE MAN (Micaiah) that had the truth. Maybe a good idea to re read the Bible. ALL the Pharisees were against what John the Baptist was saying and doing, but he was the ONE MAN (Before Christ's ministry, then HE was the ONE) Who had God used!

I am NOT claiming to be that man. This is NOT my interpretation, but as the Scripture says,
Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Jesus even said it:
Matthew 17:11
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

This has come to pass, and just like the Jews, the vast majority who were looking for the messiah MISSED HIM WHEN HE CAME. (Please prove me wrong) So has the vast majority missed the fulfillment of these Scriptures and will also miss His Second Coming!

 

[donfish06]

Why would I care if you show me 20+ things the Catholic Church does that disagrees with scripture?? We're talking about your theory about God being not a Trinity.

Because as I have shown previously your understanding of the Godhead comes from the Catholic Church. There is no history of the teaching of the trinity before the 2nd or 3rd century.

 

[Albion]

I suppose that you would consider Paul a heretic...

No, I wouldn't.

I'm glad we could dispel any doubts about that.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That means absolutely nothing. The pharisees rejected Jesus and the Disciples as heretics. Paul stated that he worshipped I'm they way they called heresy.

Show me one time in the Bible that the TRUE way of God was received by the majority? The majority ALWAYS HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL reject the TRUTH in favor of MANS understanding.

So since the majority believe the Bible is the inspired word of God they must be wrong. Correct?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Because as I have shown previously your understanding of the Godhead comes from the Catholic Church. There is no history of the teaching of the trinity before the 2nd or 3rd century.

And Modalistic Monarchianism didn't exist until the 2nd or 3rd century.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Albion]

Because as I have shown previously your understanding of the Godhead comes from the Catholic Church. There is no history of the teaching of the trinity before the 2nd or 3rd century.

Actually, my understanding comes from Scripture. Others before you have tried to debunk it, but I still see in Scripture the testimony that God is triune. There being only One god, but the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost each being referred to with personal pronouns completely demolishes the theory that it's one god merely doing three different things at different times.

 

[donfish06]

No, I wouldn't.

I'm glad we could dispel any doubts about that.

So, what I said is exactly what he said? You forgot to speak on that...

 

[Albion]

So, what I said is exactly what he said? You forgot to speak on that...

You didn't present anything to comment on. What Paul wrote and what you are advocating are not connected.

You can't just quote passages almost at random and then act as though they prove something that's unrelated to their content.

And, BTW, the argument that the majority of Christians must not know as much as you do because they are the majority is a line of defense that will only get you tuned out, it's so ridiculous.

 

[donfish06]

You didn't present anything to comment on. What Paul wrote and what you are advocating are not connected.

You can't just quote passages almost at random and then act as though they prove something that's unrelated to their content.

And, BTW, the argument that the majority of Christians must not know as much as you do because they are the majority is a line of defense that will only get you tuned out, it's so ridiculous.

Funny Paul uses nearly the exact wording I did, but was he was talking about something completely different? Tell me what he was talking about since you have the interpretation.

You were the one who said that I was teaching heresy. My point is show me one time in the Scriptures where that means it is wrong. You can't. All you can do is speak your way out of it. I use scripture, you combat it with words. No scripture to back it up.

 

[Albion]

Funny Paul uses nearly the exact wording I did, but was he was talking about something completely different? Tell me what he was talking about since you have the interpretation.

Sure he did, but he didn't mean by those words what you tried to turn them into! That was my point there. Sorry if I was unclear.

You were the one who said that I was teaching heresy.

No, I didn't say that. I make it a policy not to accuse anyone of heresy.

 

[donfish06]

Sure he did, but he didn't mean by those words what you tried to turn them into! That was my point there. Sorry if I was unclear.

Since you know what he meant, could you please tell me?

 

[donfish06]

No, I wouldn't.

I'm glad we could dispel any doubts about that.

Nothing?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings donfish06,

It's so simple.
"Father" is God above us. He is eternal, He exists outside of His creation.
"Son" is God with us. When God (the one and only God) condescends into our dimension, or manifests himself to His creation.
"Holy Spirit" is God (the one and only God) IN us.
It's not 3 persons. It is God manifesting himself.

I find it difficult to fully understand your view and do not accept that your position is supported when some of the detail of the Scriptures is considered, even though there appears to be some validity in your ideas. Below are a few of the details where I presently cannot reconcile with your view.

The Scriptures teach that Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God the Father in heaven. How does this fit with your view?
Acts 2:34-36 (KJV): 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Also in Posts #28 and #88 you stated the following:

#28 The NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is Lord Jesus Christ!
#88 The Bible teaches that Lord Jesus Christ is the NAME of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

If the name of God is the Lord Jesus Christ, why does Jesus say “thy Name” and not “my name” or “our name” in the following:
John 17:6 (KJV): I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

My belief is that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They are distinct beings, and God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. How do you understand the following?
Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Here is simply taught that God is the Father of Jesus, while Mary is his mother. Because God is His Father, then Jesus is the Son of God, not God as per your view, or as the Trinitarian view God the Son.

Also the NAME of God the Father is revealed in Exodus 3:14 as Yahweh, while the name of Jesus is a combination of this name, YAH-OSHEA or similar. This has the meaning Yah’s Salvation or as I believe Yahweh is future tense, then “Jesus” means “He will be Salvation” and this fits the announcement of his name, that this name is associated with salvation:
Matthew 1:21 (KJV): And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

I also have trouble with your view and the Trinitarian view, in that if Jesus was born as God, how then did he need to learn wisdom, and grow in favour with God:
Luke 2:52 (KJV): And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[donfish06]

Greetings donfish06,


I find it difficult to fully understand your view and do not accept that your position is supported when some of the detail of the Scriptures is considered, even though there appears to be some validity in your ideas. Below are a few of the details where I presently cannot reconcile with your view.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hello Trevor. I only have 15 min before work to talk so I will just leave you for know with the foundation of my understanding that I showed elsewhere, then I will address specific questions after work!

HOW DOES GOD REVEAL HIMSELF?

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:​

Based upon the scriptures above, it is fairly easy to conclude that God, being a Spirit, can NOT be seen. Spirits are invisible. Not only is he a Spirit, but he is an ETERNAL Spirit, meaning he has exists outside of time and space. Time and space are his creation, thus he exists outside of his creation.


This will get real deep so please pay attention and pray that if what I am saying is the truth, that the Lord would reveal himself to you in a great way!


Before anything ever was, God was all alone. You could say that he was not yet "God" since the word means an object of worship, and there was nothing to worship him. But for all of eternity it was IN HIM to be God thus, technically, eternally he IS God. Understand?


Anyways, God had no way to express who he was. How could he be known as a creator if 1) there was no one by whom to be “known”, 2) He had not yet created anything?


We all know how he created, and that was through his WORD. Now hear me: God existed forever alone with only his THOUGHTS. Being eternal, he always knows the beginning from the end. Everything you and I would ever say or do, he already knows. Because he knows that his thoughts are true, then before he even created us, we were just as real to him.


So in His “mind” his thoughts “were” (were is past tense, which doesn’t make sense when speaking of an eternal being, but it is easier to understand instead of me saying his thoughts “are” when I am referring to before this point of time J) always with him. All of creation was (is) REAL inside his thoughts. In order for His thoughts to be expressed, he had to SPEAK them.


I may be repeating some things and I apologize but this is really hard to do over text because I cannot tell what is and is not being comprehended.


God the Father always was (is). When he SPOKE, he expressed what was INSIDE. It was ((is) You get the point now? Okay I’m done) who he WAS. But it was never expressed until he SPOKE! When he spoke, his THOUGHTS were expressed AS his WORD!


THAT!!! Is the relationship between the Father and the Son!! God the Father simply is God. The Son of God is God expressed! This shows why Jesus cannot be coequal and coeternal. There is no such thing as an eternal word! EVERY word has to start out as a THOUGHT! And there is NO way we can know what the thought is unless it is SPOKEN! That is why Jesus said “no man can come to the Father, but by me!” He was the WORD expressed, IN FLESH! We cannot know the Father (God’s eternal thoughts, his being) unless we receive his Son (the word, expressing the thought). Also, there can be no such thing as “eternal sonship.” To be a son you have to have been begotten! To be a Father you have to have begotten something! God does not use these words to describe Himself by accident, Brothers and Sister!


You can see somebody for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, etc and never KNOW who they ARE unless they SPEAK to you! You can guess! “Oh that man is big and strong looking, I bet he is a real tough guy”, then he talks to you, (expressing who he is) and you find out that he is a big teddy bear! Lol.


This is the same with God. If we claim to know who He is, but reject his Son (his Word) we are fooled! It is impossible.

 

[Imagican]

Let's put aside the ideas formed by the Catholic Church and go back to the OT. God revealed Himself to those called: His Chosen. He did NOT reveal Himself as 'three persons in one God'. He revealed Himself as the ONE AND ONLY true God. SINGULAR, uncompounded, NO OTHER GODS BESIDE HIM.
Now, if this is the the God and Father of Jesus Christ, then it is apparent that the formula created by the RCC is 'utterly man made' and has NO bearing on the TRUTH. It is the formation of their OWN God in complete and utter contradiction to that offered BY the 'one true God' in scripture.
We are told to judge those that we would accept by their FRUIT. The RCC's FRUIT couldn't be more apparent. They created their OWN God and OWN religion and it is apparent to ANYONE that has ever read the Bible that MUCH of their created 'religion' is in complete and utter contradiction to the Bible. And not ONLY the Bible, but to those called, His Chosen.
While the Hebrews/Jews reject the Son, they don't DENY that the scriptures PREDICT the coming of the Messiah. And the rest of their faith lies in the laws set down by MOSES and what has transpired since.
But they STILL believe in a MONOTHEISTIC God. ONE God. Singular. Uncompounded. No other Gods beside Him.
Jesus was/IS exactly who He claimed to be: The Son of God. Jesus was/IS exactly who the apostles claimed Him to be: The Son of God. And according to the Bible, the voice of God Himself was heard upon His Baptism, "This is MY BELOVED SON in whom I am well pleased". It couldn't be any clearer than that. And then we have Christ upon the cross making His last utterance: "My God, my God, why hath THOU forsaken ME?" And then we have the apostles that TELL US that God is THE God of Jesus Christ as well as OUR God. How confusing would that be if the truth were that Jesus is God Himself? WHY would they tell us that God is THE God of Jesus Christ IF Christ were God Himself? Seems pretty deceptive if you ask me. And I don't believe that the deception is on the part of God or His TRUE messengers. The deception exists in the teachings of MEN who ignored the truth and created a God and RELIGION of their own.
Christ FREED us from the LAW. And then along came the RCC who did nothing short of creating a whole new SET of LAWS pertaining to THEIR God. And in order to falsely worship the SON as God Himself, they MADE the Son GOD Himself. Since the Son is NOT God Himself, it is apparent that the created their OWN GOD. A God of their OWN design.
Blessings,
MEC