The Trinity

[razzelflabben]

The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4.30); He has a will (1 Corinthians 12.11); historically among Bible believing Christians the word Person has fitted discussion of the Holy Spirit.

amen, but that doesn't mean He is a person, which is my point about semantics when it comes to this issue.

 

[JustHisKid]

really? Jesus life on this earth was the exact same role as the Father who asked Jesus to come and suffer and die and the HS who dwells within every believer has the exact same role as Jesus who suffered and died for our sins? I'm sorry but that argument doesn't hold any water at all as best I can tell. Now if you want to say as I already did that they have the same goal, that is a different matter, but you will never convince me that the suffering and death of Christ is the same role as the indwelling HS that is our guarantee of the salvation that Jesus secured on the cross.

That looks like one God expressing Himself in three ways.

 

[razzelflabben]

That looks like one God expressing Himself in three ways.

? and your point? Seriously, it is as if you aren't following what I am saying...I don't see any difference in saying God is three "persons" (see above post about the HS being called a person) and saying that God is revealed Himself in 3 different ways in three different roles. It's all semantics.

 

[faroukfarouk]

amen, but that doesn't mean He is a person, which is my point about semantics when it comes to this issue.

...but the characteristics of a Person who feels and has a will. Scripturally recorded, fit with the term far more than with the idea of a supposed 'it'. Historically also this is one of the matters that cause the rift with the Eastern Byzantine church, which refused to see Scriptural evidence of the Spirit's Personality.

 

[razzelflabben]

...but the characteristics of a Person who feels and has a will. Scripturally recorded, fit with the term far more than with the idea of a supposed 'it'. Historically also this is one of the matters that cause the rift with the Eastern Byzantine church, which refused to see Scriptural evidence of the Spirit's Personality.

My husbands family is long time brethren and one of the things that caused a rift in their denomination is which way to baptize....seriously!? We allow these things to tear us apart and then proclaim that we have the heart of God, or even the mindset of Christ...give me a break.

My point is, that saying, "God in three persons blessed trinity" is not really any different than saying, "God revealed Himself to us in the roles of FAther, Son and HS." Both are equally true, how we chose to say it doesn't really amount to a hill of beans, the heart of the issue is that God is 3 but 1.

As to the personality of God, we have an entire bible that tells us about His personality and I honestly believe that if more people took time to look at and study God's personality traits, the better they would understand God.

 

[JustHisKid]

? and your point? Seriously, it is as if you aren't following what I am saying...I don't see any difference in saying God is three "persons" (see above post about the HS being called a person) and saying that God is revealed Himself in 3 different ways in three different roles. It's all semantics.

It's not really my point. I believe in the trinity. It was a debate that evolved from someone else.

 

[JustHisKid]

My husbands family is long time brethren and one of the things that caused a rift in their denomination is which way to baptize....seriously!? We allow these things to tear us apart and then proclaim that we have the heart of God, or even the mindset of Christ...give me a break.

My point is, that saying, "God in three persons blessed trinity" is not really any different than saying, "God revealed Himself to us in the roles of FAther, Son and HS." Both are equally true, how we chose to say it doesn't really amount to a hill of beans, the heart of the issue is that God is 3 but 1.

As to the personality of God, we have an entire bible that tells us about His personality and I honestly believe that if more people took time to look at and study God's personality traits, the better they would understand God.

I agree. Eternity and a triune God are things we can accept but can't comprehend, anyway.

 

[razzelflabben]

It's not really my point. I believe in the trinity. It was a debate that evolved from someone else.

which is fine, as long as the argument reflects what I am saying, so that it is not just some arbitrary comment that is disassociated from the flow of conversation.

 

[brinny]

...but the characteristics of a Person who feels and has a will. Scripturally recorded, fit with the term far more than with the idea of a supposed 'it'. Historically also this is one of the matters that cause the rift with the Eastern Byzantine church, which refused to see Scriptural evidence of the Spirit's Personality.

That is interesting and a subject i've meditated on, and that is that the Holy Spirit has a personality. It fits right in where it says that we can "grieve" the Holy Spirit, amongst other things.

Thank you kindly for sharing that.

 

[JustHisKid]

which is fine, as long as the argument reflects what I am saying, so that it is not just some arbitrary comment that is disassociated from the flow of conversation.

I'm not sure why you are taking this tone. I started this thread.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'm not sure why you are taking this tone. I started this thread.

I'm not sure why you call it a tone....I said that both the one who is saying, "God in three persons blessed trinity" and the one who is saying, "God revealed in different roles" are saying the same thing to which you replied that some think that God the Father, God the Son and God the HS had the exact same roles. Really, how does any of that relate to what I said. I'm okay with you saying it, but it has no meaning at all to what I said and that is what I pointed out to you. In fact, I am one of the few people who answered your OP question and you didn't even address that response at all.

So...I have no idea what "tone" you think I am taking. If you post a completely irrelevant comment, I have two options, 1. point out to you that it is irrelevant, as I did, or 2. ignore you, something I personally find rude and offensive. No attitude, no tone, just pointing out that your comment did not reflect what I said in any way, shape, or form...end of it.

 

[JustHisKid]

I'm not sure why you call it a tone....I said that both the one who is saying, "God in three persons blessed trinity" and the one who is saying, "God revealed in different roles" are saying the same thing to which you replied that some think that God the Father, God the Son and God the HS had the exact same roles. Really, how does any of that relate to what I said. I'm okay with you saying it, but it has no meaning at all to what I said and that is what I pointed out to you. In fact, I am one of the few people who answered your OP question and you didn't even address that response at all.

So...I have no idea what "tone" you think I am taking. If you post a completely irrelevant comment, I have two options, 1. point out to you that it is irrelevant, as I did, or 2. ignore you, something I personally find rude and offensive. No attitude, no tone, just pointing out that your comment did not reflect what I said in any way, shape, or form...end of it.

It wasn't irrelevant. Some people do not believe they are the same. That was my point.

 

[7xlightray]

In Fact, Jesus did not peexsist as a person before being born. Cyrus speaks of Christ. To show Cyrus speaks of Christ Isaiah 44:28; 45:1;13-14.

Isaiah 44:28 (KJV) That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Isaiah 45:1(KJV) Thus saith the LORD (Father) to his anointed (Luke 4:18-21; Isaiah 61:1), to Cyrus (Jesus His anointed), whose right hand I (Father) have holden, to subdue nations before him (Jesus, the Father will put all his enemy’s under his feet); and I (Father) will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut (He will put all his enemy’s under his feet); . . .13 I (Father) have raised him (Jesus) up in righteousness, and I will direct all his (Jesus) ways: he (Jesus) shall build my (Father) city (Jerusalem 2 Chronicles 36:23; Ezra 1), and he (Jesus) shall let go my (Father) captives(Luke 4:18; Isaiah 61:1), not for price nor reward (Isaiah 52:3), saith the LORD of hosts. 14 (if you believe in one God, you could not come to any other conclusion, other then God is in His Christ, and doing this through His Christ from reading all of chapter 45, and verse 14 confirms it...)...they shall fall down (bow down) unto thee (Jesus, Philippians 2:10), they shall make supplication unto thee (Jesus), saying, Surely God (Father) is in thee (Jesus John 14:10); and there is none else, there is no God (not a mistake that is the way the KJV words it, but obviously not the meaning, it means there is no other God).

Jesus did not peexist as a person...

Isaiah 45:1(KJV) Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him... 2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight (this speaks of the Father's Spirit in John the Baptist (who was full of the Spirit from birth) to prepare the people for the coming of His Christ, if we use the same reasoning many use for the reason Jesus is God then John the Baptist is also God because God says He is the one who goes before him and makes the crooked places straight, Isaiah 40:4; Luke 3:2-6). . .4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name (Luke 1:31 at his birth): I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me (what? Jesus did not know the Father before he was born, before he came into the world?). 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me (Jesus did not exist before he was born, Jesus could not have been an angel nor God nor the Father nor anyone else that would qualify him as a person before he came into existence):

 

[JustHisKid]

In Fact, Jesus did not peexsist as a person before being born. Cyrus speaks of Christ. To show Cyrus speaks of Christ Isaiah 44:28; 45:1;13-14.

Isaiah 44:28 (KJV) That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Isaiah 45:1(KJV) Thus saith the LORD (Father) to his anointed (Luke 4:18-21; Isaiah 61:1), to Cyrus (Jesus His anointed), whose right hand I (Father) have holden, to subdue nations before him (Jesus, the Father will put all his enemy’s under his feet); and I (Father) will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut (He will put all his enemy’s under his feet); . . .13 I (Father) have raised him (Jesus) up in righteousness, and I will direct all his (Jesus) ways: he (Jesus) shall build my (Father) city (Jerusalem 2 Chronicles 36:23; Ezra 1), and he (Jesus) shall let go my (Father) captives(Luke 4:18; Isaiah 61:1), not for price nor reward (Isaiah 52:3), saith the LORD of hosts. 14 (if you believe in one God, you could not come to any other conclusion, other then God is in His Christ, and doing this through His Christ from reading all of chapter 45, and verse 14 confirms it...)...they shall fall down (bow down) unto thee (Jesus, Philippians 2:10), they shall make supplication unto thee (Jesus), saying, Surely God (Father) is in thee (Jesus John 14:10); and there is none else, there is no God (not a mistake that is the way the KJV words it, but obviously not the meaning, it means there is no other God).

Jesus did not peexist as a person...

Isaiah 45:1(KJV) Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him... 2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight (this speaks of the Father's Spirit in John the Baptist (who was full of the Spirit from birth) to prepare the people for the coming of His Christ, if we use the same reasoning many use for the reason Jesus is God then John the Baptist is also God because God says He is the one who goes before him and makes the crooked places straight, Isaiah 40:4; Luke 3:2-6). . .4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name (Luke 1:31 at his birth): I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me (what? Jesus did not know the Father before he was born, before he came into the world?). 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me (Jesus did not exist before he was born, Jesus could not have been an angel nor God nor the Father nor anyone else that would qualify him as a person before he came into existence):

Do you believe Jesus is a created being?

 

[donfish06]

Let's put aside the ideas formed by the Catholic Church and go back to the OT. God revealed Himself to those called: His Chosen. He did NOT reveal Himself as 'three persons in one God'. He revealed Himself as the ONE AND ONLY true God. SINGULAR, uncompounded, NO OTHER GODS BESIDE HIM.
Now, if this is the the God and Father of Jesus Christ, then it is apparent that the formula created by the RCC is 'utterly man made' and has NO bearing on the TRUTH. It is the formation of their OWN God in complete and utter contradiction to that offered BY the 'one true God' in scripture.
We are told to judge those that we would accept by their FRUIT. The RCC's FRUIT couldn't be more apparent. They created their OWN God and OWN religion and it is apparent to ANYONE that has ever read the Bible that MUCH of their created 'religion' is in complete and utter contradiction to the Bible. And not ONLY the Bible, but to those called, His Chosen.
While the Hebrews/Jews reject the Son, they don't DENY that the scriptures PREDICT the coming of the Messiah. And the rest of their faith lies in the laws set down by MOSES and what has transpired since.
But they STILL believe in a MONOTHEISTIC God. ONE God. Singular. Uncompounded. No other Gods beside Him.
Jesus was/IS exactly who He claimed to be: The Son of God. Jesus was/IS exactly who the apostles claimed Him to be: The Son of God. And according to the Bible, the voice of God Himself was heard upon His Baptism, "This is MY BELOVED SON in whom I am well pleased". It couldn't be any clearer than that. And then we have Christ upon the cross making His last utterance: "My God, my God, why hath THOU forsaken ME?" And then we have the apostles that TELL US that God is THE God of Jesus Christ as well as OUR God. How confusing would that be if the truth were that Jesus is God Himself? WHY would they tell us that God is THE God of Jesus Christ IF Christ were God Himself? Seems pretty deceptive if you ask me. And I don't believe that the deception is on the part of God or His TRUE messengers. The deception exists in the teachings of MEN who ignored the truth and created a God and RELIGION of their own.
Christ FREED us from the LAW. And then along came the RCC who did nothing short of creating a whole new SET of LAWS pertaining to THEIR God. And in order to falsely worship the SON as God Himself, they MADE the Son GOD Himself. Since the Son is NOT God Himself, it is apparent that the created their OWN GOD. A God of their OWN design.
Blessings,
MEC

Now you are the one off. If Jesus was not God, then his death means nothing for us

 

[donfish06]

And yet, as early as Genesis, the word for him is a PLURAL world.

"The word Elohim possesses a plural intensive syntax and is singular in meaning. However with Elohim, the construction is grammatically singular ...
This is self-evident from the fact that the verb "created" (bara (Gen 1:1)) is in the singular"
- Rabbi Tovia Singer

"God created." The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the One True God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality"
(NIV Study Bible)

 

[donfish06]

One God; one Father, one Son, one Spirit, three Persons.

3 Persons = 3 personalities. 3 does NOT = 1

Please tell me who Jesus' Father is?

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
​

Was God the Father Jesus' Father? Or was the Holy Spirit the Father? Because this states that the child was of the Holy Ghost?

 

[donfish06]

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. God is Spirit. There aren't two Spirits. Just one. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ.

Again, Sister ... Please take note of what the trinity is... These people are arguing the trinity. It is not what you believe!

 

[Albion]

3 Persons = 3 personalities. 3 does NOT = 1

But you do know that "persons" in that context does not mean "individual beings?"
So yes, 3 persona = 1 God.

 

[donfish06]

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are clearly revealed in Matthew 28, John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 - 17, John's First Epistle, etc.

Really? Lets take a deeper look at John 14.

Joh 14:
(8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
(9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
(10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
(14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (The Comforter = Holy Spirit)
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, (This is Jesus) and shall be in you. (This is the Holy Ghost)
(18) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
(19) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
(20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
(21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
(22) Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
(23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
(25) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(27) Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
(28) Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
(29) And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.​

Jesus makes it clear that God is one Spirit. When Jesus was on earth, God dwelt (but was not limited to) inside him, making Him Deity. The man Jesus of Nazareth was not God, of himself. He was the fullness of the Godhead, bodily! (Per Paul). The fullness of God was IN Him, MAKING him God!