The Trinity

[Light of the East]

He is literally the Son of God, but not God incarnate.

HERESY ALERT!!!!

 

[JustHisKid]

HERESY ALERT!!!!

Agreed! That is not my belief. I was posing a possible position of someone who did not believe God was one.

 

[djkms]

HERESY ALERT!!!!

LOL, love it!! Great pic!

 

[Light of the East]

Agreed! That is not my belief. I was posing a possible position of someone who did not believe God was one.

Oh! Sorry. Glad to hear that.

 

[oi_antz]

I haven't built a doctrine, I just know that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is different from the baptism of repentance, as taught in the passage you posted and the passage that I posted. The Holy Spirit abides in me. I know because His spirit testifies to my spirit that I belong to Him. How could I possibly be engaging in pagan worship?

If I may, most respectfully, that although He has accepted you as you are, He is exposing you to these topics for personal growth. It is more wise to become like a child, in order to learn from others. Your conduct on this thread has been quite the opposite though. You are skeptical of this poster, though he is reasonable and you have swallowed what was fed to you by djkms n post #44 when it actually should be questioned. There is questionable conclusions being made in that post, yet you have not looked upon it with the same skepticism as you have this post. Then you aren't behaving like a child who is seeking to understand what they don't yet understand, but more like a teenager who is looking for identity within a preferred coterie. I haven't read the rest of this thread, I will get to it later. I saw this in my email notifications today, it's interesting.

 

[oi_antz]

If I may, most respectfully, that although He has accepted you as you are, He is exposing you to these topics for personal growth. It is more wise to become like a child, in order to learn from others. Your conduct on this thread has been quite the opposite though. You are skeptical of this poster, though he is reasonable and you have swallowed what was fed to you by djkms n post #44 when it actually should be questioned. There is questionable conclusions being made in that post, yet you have not looked upon it with the same skepticism as you have this post. Then you aren't behaving like a child who is seeking to understand what they don't yet understand, but more like a teenager who is looking for identity within a preferred coterie. I haven't read the rest of this thread, I will get to it later. I saw this in my email notifications today, it's interesting.

Oh, and now I have seen the last few posts in this thread, maybe my hope for you to find real understanding is wasted, since you aren't getting encouragement for that, you are being prevented from exploring.

 

[djkms]

You are skeptical of this poster, though he is reasonable and you have swallowed what was fed to you by djkms n post #44 when it actually should be questioned.

Please question. If what I said was inaccurate please let me know how with scripture backing up your point. I am always willing to learn and grow in my knowledge and understanding of God.

 

[oi_antz]

Please question. If what I said was inaccurate please let me know how with scripture backing up your point. I am always willing to learn and grow in my knowledge and understanding of God.

Sure, I would like to do this, but I will need to do it a bit later on. It is daylight hours now and I have to make use of it. I have just stopped for lunch. I also need to check forum rules first. Thank you for the invitation

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JustHisKid,

He most certainly did claim to be God.
John 8
…57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

The phrase “I am” is not quoting Exodus 3:14 as Exodus 3:14 is better rendered “I will be” as per the RV and RSV margins and also Tyndale’s translations. The same expression “I am” is also translated “I am he” in the immediate context and Jesus is stating that He is the Christ.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The teaching of Jesus and the Apostles is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Romans 1:1-4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[morse86]

I don't get it. We got verse after verse after verse showing us the trinity.

Just a sample:

Genesis 1:26:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

The bible states "Let US". What image was man made? In the image of God. Like God (God the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit), man has flesh, soul, and spirit.

1 John 5:7:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

There are 3, the 3 are ONE.

And my favorite verse:
Psalm 45:6:
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

This is God the father talking to Jesus Christ. He is saying, THY THRONE, O God, is forever and ever. He is saying Jesus Christ is God! These three are ONE! It's the same God!

Hebrews 1:8:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

In Hebrews, we have the same verse. God the father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are ONE! It's a trinity!

 

[oi_antz]

Please question. If what I said was inaccurate please let me know how with scripture backing up your point. I am always willing to learn and grow in my knowledge and understanding of God.

.. So I have just spent an hour typing up a response, but I'm looking at this response and going "why on earth am I doing this? I'm not non-trinitarian, and I'm not even interested in getting into a discussion about this!" So I wonder how did I get into this situation then, and I know how it happened. I told JustHisKid that she was acting biased and that her behaviour was causing her to close her eyes and block her ears. I used your post as an example of this unfair, unbalanced, biased investigation she is leading. I think you have been offended that I said your statement is not robust, or at least concerned that you might need to improve. Well anyway, point is I have spent all this energy on this and it's going to lead me into a discussion that I am not really interested in. But for your sake, I would like to show you my response because sure, I understand that you will want to have evidence of a claim brought against you. Please let me know if that is ok, and if you would like to, we can discuss more in private what I said. Then we can let OP get on with her thread without me jumping in and robbing it from her. Please let me know if that is ok. Also JustHisKid, you might be interested to know what I said to djkms and I could either PM you too or add you to that conversation so three of us are included.

Meanwhile, I did form some other responses too that are relevant to what else has been said on the thread (addressed to OP now):

Ok. So I have caught up on the thread, and it is a relief to see that my concern about freedom to explore was only presented on the last page. The rest of the thread looks quite supportive. But I am concerned that most of the thread is about the debate for whether Trinity is valid teaching or not, whereas that is hardly as interesting to me as the Original Question. IMO, I think that if you were to find that Trinity is not scriptural (though it clearly does seem to be), then you would view with skepticism some of the other teachings you have come to assume are Christian teachings. IMO there is lots of teachings that are common and considered normal in Christianity (eg, post #115 has stated one such assumption - Penal Substitutionary Atonement). This would mostly be a positive thing for you, as I have only met you yesterday, but I can see you are quite rigid in the way you have been taught. But that also makes you fragile. It makes you fragile because your beliefs are more or less what has been taught to you, and you have accepted then grasped, rather than being born of challenging what you believe and arriving at your conclusions through having seriously questioned your beliefs and formed understandings from thinking freely.

So I think you should question it and not stop there. You should find actually that what you think you know about the Trinity is not developed as much as it should be, because you have admitted that you don't really understand it. That means that you believe something you don't understand. It is therefore an unreasonable belief, and that is a fragile belief. Needless to say, fragile beliefs will break, and if other beliefs depend on fragile beliefs, even those beliefs might collapse 'with a mighty crash'.

Naturally, the concept of Trinity is something that requires lots and lots and even lots more thought before you can really grasp it. And, if you are up for a challenge, go and seek out some non-trinitarian believers. You know that steel sharpens steel, so it actually cold be mutually beneficial.

Now, I did say that I think you have not really been inquisitive as you should be, in order to develop this sort of genuine understanding, solid, self-discovered belief structure, and used for example the post by djkms, saying that if you were inquisitive and applying the same bias as you were applying to the other poster, then you should actually have forced him to be more responsible. But you did let him get away with making unjustified conclusions and did not question him as you would have questioned the other poster. He called me out on that, I would like to show you now the problems that I see in that post that I would have asked if I was viewing it with skepticism as you were viewing the other posts.

[..snip - as described, this bit should not enter into the thread because it will distract and rob OP of her topic..]

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just quoting Scripture. Is there something you see in this quote, that I might be missing?

Your purpose for this scripture is not clear, it is confusing. I cannot see what your message is. St Paul said "scripture is good for correction and instruction in righteousness". Therefore, scripture should be used in conjunction with your message. To not explain your message and only to state scripture is sometimes insufficient communication. Sometimes it is sufficient, but this time it wasn't. That particular scripture could be used to support many different points you might want to make with relevance to this topic. You have forced us to guess what your point is. But then to suggest that we should see exactly the same point you have in mind, without actually saying it, I am sure it is a mistake. But it is still not fair. You aren't thinking from our point of view as a reader, to ensure that we do have enough explanation to understand your point. Hopefully this is enough explanation of the problem I have found with your quote.

Very well, but he certainly identified himself as God, so what does that leave you to argue? Just the term itself which is also clearly Scriptural?

Can you please provide the scripture you are referring to "Jesus identified Himself as God".

It would even change the teaching of the resurrection, because the bible depicts the Father exerting himself to pull Jesus out of the grave, to deny the nuance that the trinity represents, it may call the entire crucifixion into question.

Please, can you explain this? Especially if you can consider that Jesus is not God incarnate, but is some eternal being that was with God in the beginning according to John 1:1, I do not understand how this would cal the entire crucifixion into question, and also please elaborate enough on what specific teaching of the resurrection would be changed.

If God is not triune then what has been revealed to us in the bible would mean that God lied about His existence, that would mean our faith is not true. And we understand that God cannot lie and will not lie. Some things can put questions of doubting the truth of Gods word if you go beyond that is written and can cause doubt and confusion so therefore the Christian bible that we believe in is the only standard of truth.

Not necessarily. Some people are satisfied with non-trinitarian doctrines yet they believe God does not lie. I think you are expressing a hesitance based only on fear, unless you have actually found first-hand already that someone who does believe such non-trinitarian doctrines causes God to be considered dishonest and they have accepted that.

 

[djkms]

Greetings again JustHisKid,
The phrase “I am” is not quoting Exodus 3:14 as Exodus 3:14 is better rendered “I will be” as per the RV and RSV margins and also Tyndale’s translations. The same expression “I am” is also translated “I am he” in the immediate context and Jesus is stating that He is the Christ.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Kind regards
Trevor

Exodus 3:14King James Version (KJV)
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

So inserting "I will be" reads to you:
14 And God said unto Moses, I will be That I will be: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I will be hath sent me unto you.

Moses was asking God who he should say Gods name is to Israel. Why would God answer Moses with a future tense answer? Doesn't it make more sense God would answer in a present tense answer? Heck, "I AM" is absolute, and depending on how the question is asked it can be placed in past, present or future tense.

Not one translation here backs up your statement:
http://biblehub.com/exodus/3-14.htm

John 8:58King James Version (KJV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Grammatically alone adding he after I AM in this statement does not make sense. "Before Abraham was" is putting the statement in past tense - again, I AM is an absolute statement and adding he after would make it a present tense statement.

So if in fact, what Jesus is saying to you translates "Before Abraham was, I am he, how can Jesus be before Abraham with a present tense answer when Abraham was in the past?

Not one translation on this page has the word he in it:
http://biblehub.com/john/8-58.htm

Again, we have to keep it all in context:
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Why did the Jews take up stones to cast at him? Because he said he was really old? They wanted to stone him because he was stating he was God. If you really think about it, the Jews wanted him killed for Blasphemy. Jesus never once spoke bad against God - they wanted him killed because in their eyes he claimed to have the power of God, which is in essence, making him God.

.. I used your post as an example of this unfair, unbalanced, biased investigation she is leading. I think you have been offended that I said your statement is not robust, or at least concerned that you might need to improve.

I was not offended at all. I know my statement is not robust and can use improving. I am by no means a Bible scholar or a literary genius. I have thoughts and I type them out in discussion, thats all.

 

[JustHisKid]

Oh, and now I have seen the last few posts in this thread, maybe my hope for you to find real understanding is wasted, since you aren't getting encouragement for that, you are being prevented from exploring.

What is it you hope for me to learn?

 

[oi_antz]

What is it you hope for me to learn?

Hi, I know you are busy and possibly have not noticed what has been said, so I will draw your attention to this that I said to you from #131:

This would mostly be a positive thing for you, as I have only met you yesterday, but I can see you are quite rigid in the way you have been taught. But that also makes you fragile. It makes you fragile because your beliefs are more or less what has been taught to you, and you have accepted then grasped, rather than being born of challenging what you believe and arriving at your conclusions through having seriously questioned your beliefs and formed understandings from thinking freely.

.. Essentially, I hope for you to develop real understanding, to know certainly what you believe is because you discovered it through real examination. I hope that toward everyone who speaks for Him, or even speaks about Him.

 

[7xlightray]

And my favorite verse:
Psalm 45:6:
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

This is God the father talking to Jesus Christ. He is saying, THY THRONE, O God, is forever and ever. He is saying Jesus Christ is God! These three are ONE! It's the same God!

Hebrews 1:8:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

In Hebrews, we have the same verse. God the father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are ONE! It's a trinity!

You know Jesus is the sceptre in that passage, the right sceptre, in God the Father's kingdom, right?

 

[JustHisKid]

Hi, I know you are busy and possibly have not noticed what has been said, so I will draw your attention to this that I said to you from #131:

This would mostly be a positive thing for you, as I have only met you yesterday, but I can see you are quite rigid in the way you have been taught. But that also makes you fragile. It makes you fragile because your beliefs are more or less what has been taught to you, and you have accepted then grasped, rather than being born of challenging what you believe and arriving at your conclusions through having seriously questioned your beliefs and formed understandings from thinking freely.

.. Essentially, I hope for you to develop real understanding, to know certainly what you believe is because you discovered it through real examination. I hope that toward everyone who speaks for Him, or even speaks about Him.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings morse86 and djkms,

I appreciate your response, but I am not sure if we should use this thread to fully discuss the Trinity as the OP was about the effects on a person if he believed in the Trinity or something different. Perhaps I could briefly respond to your citations and comments and suggest some difference in perspective as a result of these two different views.

I don't get it. We got verse after verse after verse showing us the trinity.
Just a sample:
Genesis 1:26:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
The bible states "Let US". What image was man made? In the image of God. Like God (God the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit), man has flesh, soul, and spirit.

I believe the “US” and “OUR” of Genesis 1:26 is God the Father and the Angels. God invites the Angels to participate in the Creation of Man. This is confirmed by David’s succinct summary of creation in Psalm 8 where man was made “a little lower than the angels”.

Perhaps there may be no immediate difference with these two perspectives, but to say that the principle lesson or a major lesson arising out of Genesis 1:26 is that “man has flesh, soul and spirit” is different to the well established Biblical theme of being in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels. This concept has a moral transforming effect when considered and meditated upon. Eve and Adam grasped at this eqaulity, but the faithful are transformed through faith, waiting for the day of their transformation into the full image and likeness of God and His Son Jesus Christ 1 John 3:1-3

1 John 5:7:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
There are 3, the 3 are ONE.

This passage is regarded by most scholars as spurious and is omitted by most modern translations. Perhaps the fact that this verse is quoted so much by Trinitarians speaks of how little support they have in Scripture for the doctrine of the Trinity. Please consider the implications of Revelation 22:18-19.

And my favorite verse:
Psalm 45:6:
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
This is God the father talking to Jesus Christ. He is saying, THY THRONE, O God, is forever and ever. He is saying Jesus Christ is God! These three are ONE! It's the same God!
Hebrews 1:8:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
In Hebrews, we have the same verse. God the father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are ONE! It's a trinity!

The word “God” in the OT is applied to Angels, Judges and here the Lord Jesus Christ. None of these prove that they are the ONE GOD. John 10:30-36 is a good reference to consider how and why the word God is applied to beings other than the One God, the Father.

The correct form of worship is revealed in the following, where bowing to Jesus upon his throne will redound to the glory of God the Father, not to the Trinity.
Philippians 2:6-11 (KJV): 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Exodus 3:14King James Version (KJV)
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

So inserting "I will be" reads to you:
14 And God said unto Moses, I will be That I will be: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I will be hath sent me unto you.

Moses was asking God who he should say Gods name is to Israel. Why would God answer Moses with a future tense answer? Doesn't it make more sense God would answer in a present tense answer? Heck, "I AM" is absolute, and depending on how the question is asked it can be placed in past, present or future tense.

Not one translation here backs up your statement:
http://biblehub.com/exodus/3-14.htm

I have already stated that the RV magin, the RSV margin and Tyndale’s translation all suggest the future tense. The immediate context of Exodus 3:14 has the same words translated in the future tense, and this sets the basis of a proper translation of Exodus 3:14:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
This indicates that God was going to be active on their behalf to bring out the chidren of Israel out of Egypt. The Yahweh Name is also linked strongly with this activity in Exodus 6:1-8, and the future tense is strongly emphasised..

John 8:58King James Version (KJV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Grammatically alone adding he after I AM in this statement does not make sense. "Before Abraham was" is putting the statement in past tense - again, I AM is an absolute statement and adding he after would make it a present tense statement.

So if in fact, what Jesus is saying to you translates "Before Abraham was, I am he, how can Jesus be before Abraham with a present tense answer when Abraham was in the past?

Not one translation on this page has the word he in it:
http://biblehub.com/john/8-58.htm

Again, we have to keep it all in context:
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Why did the Jews take up stones to cast at him? Because he said he was really old? They wanted to stone him because he was stating he was God. If you really think about it, the Jews wanted him killed for Blasphemy. Jesus never once spoke bad against God - they wanted him killed because in their eyes he claimed to have the power of God, which is in essence, making him God.

Jesus did claim precedence over Abraham, and Jesus is revealed for example in Genesis 3:15 well before Abraham came on the scene. But they were offended by all that he had said concerning their status as not being true sons of Abraham. Perhaps you have not considered the real implications of the previous “I AM” statement by Jesus in John 8:
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Is Jesus here claiming equality with God the Father when he says “I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me”.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[7xlightray]

Psalm 45:6:
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

The word “God” in the OT is applied to Angels, Judges and here the Lord Jesus Christ.

Just like to point this out again, Jesus is the sceptre in these passages, God is referring to the Father.

Genesis 49:10(KJV) The sceptre (is speaking of rulers, but not referring to Jesus) shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him (this is speaking of Jesus) shall the gathering of the people be.

Numbers 24:17(KJV) I shall see him (Jesus), but not now: I shall behold him (Jesus), but not nigh: there shall come a Star (Jesus) out of Jacob, and a Sceptre (Jesus) shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

Psalm 45:6(KJV) Thy throne, O God (Father), is for ever and ever: the sceptre (Jesus) of thy (Father) kingdom is a right sceptre (Jesus, the other sceptres were not right and were rejected). 7 Thou (sceptre, Jesus) lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God (Father), thy (Jesus) God (Father), hath anointed thee (Jesus) with the oil of gladness above thy (Jesus) fellows.

 

[Isaacsname]

If God is not triune, how would that change anything regarding Christian faith?

it wouldn't

 

[donfish06]

It's so simple.
"Father" is God above us. He is eternal, He exists outside of His creation.

"Son" is God with us. When God (the one and only God) condescends into our dimension, or manifests himself to His creation.

"Holy Spirit" is God (the one and only God) IN us.

It's not 3 persons. It is God manifesting himself.