The Transgender Debate

[Postvieww]

It's a story about gang rape of strangers. Not really relevant to contemporary debates about homosexuality.

Those are all good points. You are right, it's hard for a western person to understand the story of Soddom and Gomorrah being about hospitality, or the lack thereof. Hospitality is still an important value in Middle Eastern cultures, with attention being given to the concept of ibn-al-sabeel, a "son of the road", a traveler that is vulnerable or in need.

Well which is it gang rape or hospitality? Do hermeneutics change with the direction of the wind?

 

[Postvieww]

Question: How much do you know about the experiences of actual trans people, or the actual science and scientific work that's been done trying to understand gender dysphoria, and things of that nature.

The term "Gender dysphoria" sounds impressive but what is it really? I would say it is a phrase and concept coined by the psychiatrist Norman M. Fisk in the early 1970s. Apparently the antidote for this condition is to expose our young children to transgenders shaking their junk, and having our teachers coach our children on the need to physically alter their bodies without the input of their parents. Not to mention this new manufactured "crisis" is promoted largely or exclusively by the left. This is junk science masquerading as a real problem for our youth.

How much of what you know about "transgenderism" comes from conservative media, and how much comes from objective investigation into the real lives and experiences and the science?

Conservative media that "evil entity" that actually reports on what liberals try to force on children and parents under the guise of intellectual superiority and so called science.

I don't know anywhere in my Bible that actually talks about trans people. I see people quote Genesis where it reads "male and female He made them" and see there something proscriptive; but the problem I have with that is it creates a massive disconnect between the Bible and objective reality. I don't think there should be a dissonance between God's word and objective reality, because I believe God's word speaks to and addresses objective reality. Objectively speaking, "male and female" simply isn't the kind of black and white matter some might think it is. Because, from a purely biological perspective, there are people who don't fit either category. I have often brought up cases of those who have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, these are persons who have a Y-chromosome and are therefore genetically male, but who do not develop male sex characteristics, they are born with female sex characteristics and develop secondary female sex characteristics during puberty. Such a person can live their entire life as a woman, and unless they had a genetic screening or invasive test done, there's simply no way they'd know they were genetically male. In the past they would simply have been classified as "barren" because a person with AIS doesn't have ovaries.

Correct the Bible doesn't mention "trans people" it also does not mention teaching young children they may need surgery to make their body line up with their mind. Yes ,there are actually physical anomalies that exit, but if you are trying to say that is what is going on in our culture today you are sadly mistaken. The trash being promoted to our youth today has nothing to do with chromosomes it is an all out EVIL assault on the minds and bodies of our youth.

That's just one example of many examples. Now, here's the thing, the usual counter to this is: 1) That's not a transgender person, and I agree, that's not the point I'm making; and 2) such cases are outliers, they aren't the norm, but again, I also agree. To the second point, transgender persons are also a very tiny percentage of the population. We are talking about a very small part of the population who, for various reasons, simply do not conform to the "ordinary" male-female dynamic. Sometimes that's because of genetics, sometimes because of hormones, and sometimes it's because of brain chemistry (dysphoria). But the fact of the matter is that all these people exist, and demanding that they simply conform to what a certain part of the wider population demands based solely on ideological and, frankly, ignorant grounds doesn't communicate love, or even truth-telling, or abstaining from sin. It only communicates hate, fear, and othering. That they aren't deserving of the same respect, love, kindness and just being able to live as cis-het people do.

The main disagreement I have with your assessment of this issue is that 1.This is a relatively new created crisis promoted by self
proclaimed experts mainly on the left politically. 2. God was not caught off guard in His Word by not anticipating a current day phenomenon. 3. The physical anomalies you mention are not the norm and absolutely are not the driving factor in this trans movement today. Nobody is testing the chromosomes of our children before they expose them to sexual deviancy.

My Bible doesn't proscribe that a person be "male" or "female", and if they don't then they are living in sin. Rather I see the Bible offering a rather simple description of the ordinary, but not the exclusive, reality of the sexual binary that typically exists for reproductive purposes. Male and female, because that's how reproduction works in human beings and most (but not all) animals. Snails, for example, are not existing in sinful rebellion against God because they are hermaphrodites, that's just what they are.

The Bible absolutely describes sexual sin and so called intellectual scholars that try to water down what God has said are not intellectually honest with themselves and with the Word of God.

If we are genuinely interested in taking the Bible seriously, and taking people seriously, then that means we can't just make up our own version of reality that makes us feel better about ourselves. It means we have to take the Bible seriously enough that we engage the world in truth and love. Truth and love being not what we want it to be, but what it is. It is not truth-telling to tell someone that they are an abomination when they are just existing; that is not what Jesus did to the woman caught in adultery. So using that simply doesn't work here.

I never tell anyone they are an abomination, but things God said are an abomination still in the so called enlightened age are an abomination to Him. God is the judge, Christ died for all men, the answer for all of our problems are in scripture even thought God didn't specifically use our modern terms such as 'trans" He did cover all we need for an abundant life.

Let's get real here, anyone that tells me trans people shaking their junk in front of young children has any redeeming qualities sanctioned by a Holy Father, I will not pay very much attention to their eschatological prowess. Jesus loves trans people , gay people, murderers , thieves, drunkards, and religious phonies He died for all mankind but He does not whitewash that which wrong. That is why He told the woman caught in adultry go and sin no more. He didn't condemn her but He pointed her in the way she should go, that is love . Coddling sin is not love.

So that is why, at the beginning of this post I asked how much have you done to actually look into this, rather than simply getting information from biased media sources and operating from a purely a priori set of assumptions and biases?

Science never overrules the Word of God. Everything men calls science is not true science. Mens science changes. God never changes.

Men having sex with men is scripturally wrong no matter how many intellectuals, or scholars use hermeneutical tactics to change what God has said.

So is lying, stealing and many other things we do not get to chose what we think is right and wrong God has already done that for us.

The age we live in is not as enlightened as many think.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well which is it gang rape or hospitality? Do hermeneutics change with the direction of the wind?

It is a story about the lack of hospitality, and demonstrated by the attempt to rape three vulnerable travelers.

 

[FireDragon76]

The term "Gender dysphoria" sounds impressive but what is it really?

Christians should stop this kind of anti-intellectualism. You shouldn't attack science just because it's inconvenient. It's been well-documented for decades. A profound and persistent unhappiness with ones gender, causing a substantial impairment to day-to-day functioning.

I would say it is a phrase and concept coined by the psychiatrist Norman M. Fisk in the early 1970s. Apparently the antidote for this condition is to expose our young children to transgenders shaking their junk, and having our teachers coach our children on the need to physically alter their bodies without the input of their parents. Not to mention this new manufactured "crisis" is promoted largely or exclusively by the left. This is junk science masquerading as a real problem for our youth.

What you are describing is a "moral panic". You are conflating different things together into one, including things no one is seriously suggesting. That's not a fair or accurate response.

Conservative media that "evil entity" that actually reports on what liberals try to force on children and parents under the guise of intellectual superiority and so called science.

Maybe you should stop seeing this as a conservative vs. liberal issue?

 

[Postvieww]

Christians should stop this kind of anti-intellectualism.

Intellectualism never trumps nor defines scripture.

 

[Postvieww]

It is a story about the lack of hospitality, and demonstrated by the attempt to rape three vulnerable travelers.

Genesis 19​

1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

Not just a few deviates but a major problem in the city.

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

That they may have sex with them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

"Wickedly" is not a chromosome problem. Not a hospitality problem. This was a sin problem!


2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Postvieww]

Maybe you should stop seeing this as a conservative vs. liberal issue?

Ok, does a sin issue sound better. Men with men, is scripturally a sin issue. Intellectualism many times has a problem with right and wrong and scripture in general. Now if God wanted an exception in scripture for those that have been confused and propagandized He would have covered it in His word.

Sorry for the bluntness but I do believe this is a Christians only thread so I will unashamedly express my Christian views and support them with Gods Holy written Word.

 

[Postvieww]

You shouldn't attack science just because it's inconvenient. It's been well-documented for decades.

A profound and persistent unhappiness with ones gender, causing a substantial impairment to day-to-day functioning.

I don't attack science in general, only when it contradicts the written Word of God .

Jesus offers a cure for all kinds of unhappiness the one you describe is no exception.

 

[Postvieww]

What you are describing is a "moral panic". You are conflating different things together into one, including things no one is seriously suggesting. That's not a fair or accurate response.

The things I have described are the things that have brought this issue to the public square for debate. This is not moral panic.

 

[Richard.20.12]

How you read Ezekiel 16:49-50 and focus on hospitality when its clear they were about to rape the angels in Genesis and in Exekiel God is chastising Israel for a myriad of faults, yet hospitality is never mentioned. It was Sodom's mindset that was the problem. They were lucky in that the ground around them was very fertile so they didn't have to slave away at it to get fed so instead of using that time to help others they focused on pleasure for themselves. Its just another example of a self centered mentality that is the foundation to all sin. I believe you're looking for excuses. For some reason you don't want to accept the fact that gay is not OK with God. So you read something and refuse to accept what it clearly says. Hospitality is hilarious. That's like saying Charles Manson was inhospitable. I suppose he was though. So we better focus just on that and forget the slaughtering part. And I could care less what some Rabbi or what the Talmud says. I focus on one book: The Bible. And here its clear. Gay is NOT OK. Along with a myriad of other things Christians today indulge in without much thought.

You've got your etymology backward. The word "sodomy" is an English word that is taken from the name of the city, based on the late idea that Sodom's big problem was sexual deviance, including (but not exclusively) homosexuality.



As I mentioned in my previous post, we westerners have a hard time conceiving how hospitality could be such an important concept biblically and int he ancient near east. But feel free to do your own homework on this subject. But Scripture is clear what Sodom's issue was, as written in Ezekiel 16:49-50. Likewise rabbinic commentary points to the same, such as in Pirkei Avot 5:10,

"There are four types of people: One who says, "What is mine is yours, and what is yours is mine" is a boor. One who says "What is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours" — this is a median characteristic; others say that this is the character of a Sodomite. One who says, "What is mine is yours, and what is yours is yours" is a chassid (pious person). And one who says "What is mine is mine, and what is yours is mine" is wicked."

In the Talmud, in Sanhedrin 109a, we see several references to Sodom's sin, all relate to Sodom's pride, arrogance, and mistreatment of travelers, such as here,

"The people of Sodom said: Since we live in a land from which bread comes and has the dust of gold, we have everything that we need. Why do we need travelers, as they come only to divest us of our property? Come, let us cause the proper treatment of travelers to be forgotten from our land, as it is stated: “He breaks open a watercourse in a place far from inhabitants, forgotten by pedestrians, they are dried up, they have moved away from men”"

According to St. John Chrysostom, the abundance of luxuries and gratifying the gluttonous appetites of the flesh by the elite is routinely the cause of judgment and destruction,

"For indeed both Adam by the incontinence of the belly was cast out of paradise; and the flood in Noah's time, this produced; and this brought down the thunders on Sodom. For although there was also a charge of whoredom, nevertheless from this grew the root of each of those punishments; which Ezekiel also signified when he said, "But this was the iniquity of Sodom, that she waxed wanton in pride and in fullness of bread, and in abundance of luxury."" - Homily 13 on Matthew, 2

"Would you that I bring before you those [that live] in luxury? Let us ascend from the last to the first. The rich man who is burning in the furnace; the Jews who live for the belly, "whose god is their belly" Philippians 3:19, who were ever seeking ease in the wilderness, were destroyed; as also those in Sodom, on account of their gluttony; and those in the time of Noah, was it not because they chose this soft and dissolute life? For "they luxuriated," it says, "in fullness of bread." Ezekiel 16:49 It speaks of those in Sodom. But if "fullness of bread" wrought so great evil, what should we say of other delicacies? Esau, was not he in ease? And what of those who being of "the sons of God" Genesis 6:2, looked on women, and were borne down the precipice? And what of those who were maddened by inordinate lust? And all the kings of the nations, of the Babylonians, of the Egyptians, did they not perish miserably? Are they not in torment?" - Homily 29 on Hebrews, 4

-CryptoLutheran

How you read Ezekiel 16:49-50 and focus on hospitality when its clear they were about to rape the angels in Genesis and in Exekiel God is chastising Israel for a myriad of faults, yet hospitality is never mentioned. It was Sodom's mindset that was the problem. They were lucky in that the ground around them was very fertile so they didn't have to slave away at it to get fed so instead of using that time to help others they focused on pleasure for themselves. Its just another example of a self centered mentality that is the foundation to all sin. I believe you're looking for excuses. For some reason you don't want to accept the fact that gay is not OK with God. So you read something and refuse to accept what it clearly says. Hospitality is hilarious. That's like saying Charles Manson was inhospitable. I suppose he was though. So we better focus just on that and forget the slaughtering part. And I could care less what some Rabbi or what the Talmud says. I focus on one book: The Bible. And here its clear. Gay is NOT OK. Along with a myriad of other things Christians today indulge in without much thought. Many hetero Christians!

 

[Richard.20.12]

I'm not a Fundamentalist Christian. It's that simple. I see no reason to accept a Fundamentalist hermeneutic of the Bible.



I'm not into gaming, either. It refers to the year I was born in.

I didn't realize FireDragon was a year.

 

[Richard.20.12]

FireDragon76 said: A profound and persistent unhappiness with ones gender, causing a substantial impairment to day-to-day functioning.

No FireDragon. Its a profound and persistent unhappiness with previous abuse that is causing substantial impairment to day-to-day functioning. Perhaps the root problem of homosexuality is just a stiff necked attitude. And unforgiveness is right in there with that. Things didn't go their way so now they will not accept that part of society (heterosexual). Instead of realizing that the abuser was probably abused, was probably under the influence and wasn't thinking straight. Remove the previous abuse and it wouldn't have happened. Remove the "influence" and it wouldn't have happened. A lot of things have to fall into place before someone really loses touch with reality and sexually abuses someone. It's rarely premeditated. It's impulse control and most gays ironically have precious little of it. Gay men are often "gushing" about something instead of thinking rationally. It's easier to react emotionally. But how do you lead a family when you are so flippant with your emotions? Well its clear its impossible.

 

[Richard.20.12]

Those are all good points. You are right, it's hard for a western person to understand the story of Soddom and Gomorrah being about hospitality, or the lack thereof. Hospitality is still an important value in Middle Eastern cultures, with attention being given to the concept of ibn-al-sabeel, a "son of the road", a traveler that is vulnerable or in need.

This is hilarious! INhospitable Sodom! What else did they do? Talk too loud? Litter? Let's rain fire and brimstone down on them!

 

[Richard.20.12]

The things I have described are the things that have brought this issue to the public square for debate. This is not moral panic.

For someone refusing to change, to accept that they may have made some wrong turns in the road, I suppose it could be a moral panic. Because then you have to admit that your whole life was pointed in the wrong direction. Well I have some good news for gay people out there: You're no different from the rest of us. We were all lost before we found the Lord. It doesn't matter why. And after getting saved its easy to go back to being lost if we don't give Jesus time each day. Otherwise we get blown around by sinful influences all around us. So take heart. You can do it. Begin by turning off your screen, closing your eyes and focusing on the fact that Jesus is right there beside you waiting to bring you to a better way of living.

 

[Richard.20.12]

> I don't attack science in general, only when it contradicts the written Word of God .
Unfortunately that seems to be a full time job now for many in the science world. They seem bent on trying to twist each and every facet of science to embrace evolution even though that is as ridiculous today as it was when Darwin first concocted it. But so much of what you read comes back to evolution as if its the reason for everything. Basically they have a blind faith in this bizarre theory. A theory that ignores their own fundamental laws of science and thermodynamics because sometimes its not convenient!

 

[FireDragon76]

This is hilarious! INhospitable Sodom! What else did they do? Talk too loud? Litter? Let's rain fire and brimstone down on them!

Yes, that is how the story was understood in the cultural context.

 

[FireDragon76]

How you read Ezekiel 16:49-50 and focus on hospitality when its clear they were about to rape the angels in Genesis and in Exekiel God is chastising Israel for a myriad of faults, yet hospitality is never mentioned. It was Sodom's mindset that was the problem.

The lack of hospitality was demonstrated in their attempt to rape the visitors.

Hospitality in the ancient world was a code of honor, it was more complicated than simply offering somebody something as a gesture of goodwill, as a modern-day western person might understand it. It also mean that you didn't exploit guests and travelers.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is hilarious! INhospitable Sodom! What else did they do? Talk too loud? Litter? Let's rain fire and brimstone down on them!

Here are a handful of links that I found simply by doing a Google search on the subject of hospitality in the ancient near east. Feel free to browse at your convenience.

Hospitality

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

HOSPITALITY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

Hospitality in the Middle East

The ancient virtue of hospitality imposes duties on host and guest. In the Koran as in the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, the mistreatment of strangers is a sure way to incur divine wrath. The blessed have earned praise for welcoming the stranger.

www.scu.edu

Travelers and Strangers: Hospitality in the Ancient Middle East

Manners & Customs: The sacred duty of hospitality | AHRC

It is part of Oriental etiquette to want to share hospitality with others.

www.ancient-hebrew.org

Old Testament foundations for Christian hospitality

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Postvieww]

Here are a handful of links that I found simply by doing a Google search on the subject of hospitality in the ancient near east. Feel free to browse at your convenience.

Hospitality

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

HOSPITALITY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

Hospitality in the Middle East

The ancient virtue of hospitality imposes duties on host and guest. In the Koran as in the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, the mistreatment of strangers is a sure way to incur divine wrath. The blessed have earned praise for welcoming the stranger.

www.scu.edu

Travelers and Strangers: Hospitality in the Ancient Middle East

Manners & Customs: The sacred duty of hospitality | AHRC

It is part of Oriental etiquette to want to share hospitality with others.

www.ancient-hebrew.org

Old Testament foundations for Christian hospitality

-CryptoLutheran

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/61/61-2/JETS_61.2_307-320_ Peterson.pdf I read over your “proofs” used to support your false notion that it was lack of hospitality and not sexual perversion that brought about the destruction of Sodom. How can you read the entirety of Ezekiel 16 and miss the overwhelming amount of sexual perversion discussed and cherrie pick a couple of verses to try to support a false claim?
Read the link I provided and you will see this “hospitality “ defense falls flat on its face. Gods Word condemns many types of sin both sexual and non- sexual, but to try to remove what scripture clearly says about same sex escapades is NOT rightly dividing the Word of GOD. This trans movement as manifest today in our country has no Godly redeeming qualities, it is solely designed to indoctrinate perversion on our youth. This is not normal behavior, it is not poor helpless people who have no choice but to force their perversion on children and society. This is evil at its root and yes like it or not it is mainly the political left supporting and defending this madness.

 

[Richard.20.12]

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/61/61-2/JETS_61.2_307-320_ Peterson.pdf I read over your “proofs” used to support your false notion that it was lack of hospitality and not sexual perversion that brought about the destruction of Sodom. How can you read the entirety of Ezekiel 16 and miss the overwhelming amount of sexual perversion discussed and cherrie pick a couple of verses to try to support a false claim?
Read the link I provided and you will see this “hospitality “ defense falls flat on its face. Gods Word condemns many types of sin both sexual and non- sexual, but to try to remove what scripture clearly says about same sex escapades is NOT rightly dividing the Word of GOD. This trans movement as manifest today in our country has no Godly redeeming qualities, it is solely designed to indoctrinate perversion on our youth. This is not normal behavior, it is not poor helpless people who have no choice but to force their perversion on children and society. This is evil at its root and yes like it or not it is mainly the political left supporting and defending this madness.

That was flawlessly expressed. Thank you.
Of all the many odd interpretations of Biblical passages this hospitality angle of Sodom is the most absurd by far. The other one is that David and Jonathan were lovers even though there is nothing in scripture insinuating that other than they loved each other which is not sexual when written that way in the Bible.