The Transgender Debate

[Postvieww]

My point is that her assessments of the world in general tends to be cruel and cynical, and lack the kind of ethos I associate with good rhetoric.

It's too difficult to say what is happening in popular culture regarding gender, in terms of broad generalization. Paglia's critique sounds like a moral panic, and she makes broad sweeping generalizations about history that seem unwarranted. While most Americans favor non-discrimination against trans people in terms of housing, employment, and access to public facilities, they don't necessarily believe that gender should be the result merely of self-identification. Only a very small minority think that way. Other countries in the western world have generally taken a similar attitude, and have gone with evidence-based care for transgender individuals, over ideology.

Sound to me like you are over analyzing. The current movement in our country to normalize this, especially indoctrinating our children at a very young age is just plain wrong on many levels. Since this is a Christian thread I don't feel we can ignore scriptural implications. This is not the fuzzy math you propose.

 

[Postvieww]

I don't think the Bible is as clear-cut as you claim in giving us those kinds of easy certainties or ethical mandates.

I think it is on this topic, If you can make a scriptural argument to support this you have my attention. If not we can just agree to disagree.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sound to me like you are over analyzing.

Analysis is a bad thing?

I think processing things and not rushing to snap judgements is much better. It's important to weed out our own prejudices and biases when deliberating on important matters.

The current movement in our country to normalize this, especially indoctrinating our children at a very young age is just plain wrong on many levels.

As I pointed out, that's only confined to a small minority of actual people in the US.

Since this is a Christian thread I don't feel we can ignore scriptural implications. This is not the fuzzy math you propose.

We differ on what "scriptural implications" look like. Like I said, the Bible must be read dialogically, or else it's just being used to justify our own existing attitudes.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think it is on this topic, If you can make a scriptural argument to support this you have my attention. If not we can just agree to disagree.

I don't have hundreds of pages to explain why a naive biblicist hermeneutic doesn't work, and why it's actually antithetical to Jesus' own hermeneutic.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It should be pointed out that homosexuality and transgenderism, are two different things.

In fact, many homosexuals are distancing themselves from the transgender movement and
even oppose laws supporting it.

A homosexual female, generally, still wants to remain a female as
a homosexual male, generally still wants to remain a male.

Most with gender dysphoria, are males and express it at an early age. Left
alone, 70% will grow out of it, the rest will suffer from the dysphoria, for the
rest of their lives, even after surgical and drug transition therapy.

It's a mental disorder which should be accepted as such and not praised as
being a courageous thing to identify with and society should not be forced
into accepting it as being normal.

 

[FireDragon76]

It should be pointed out that homosexuality and transgenderism, are two different things.

In fact, many homosexuals are distancing themselves from the transgender movement and
even oppose laws supporting it.

A homosexual female, generally, still wants to remain a female as
a homosexual male, generally still wants to remain a male.

Most with gender dysphoria, are males and express it at an early age. Left
alone, 70% will grow out of it, the rest will suffer from the dysphoria, for the
rest of their lives, even after surgical and drug transition therapy.

That's not accurate to the actual scientific evidence. The prognosis is far better than that. For most people born biological males with gender dysphoria, the dysphoria itself largely goes away with hormone treatment. A minority of those also will require surgery.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

That's not accurate to the actual scientific evidence. The prognosis is far better than that. For most people born biological males with gender dysphoria, the dysphoria itself largely goes away with hormone treatment. A minority of those also will require surgery.

The experts in the field say that 70% of males grow out of gender dysphoria. Actually, I had 70% as too low
according to experts.

See,

Leading gender dysphoria expert says 80% of children grow out of gender confusion

Progressives in America like to think that Europe is very far ahead of us. And since Europe is more progressive than us, we should become more progressive to catch up to them. But what happens when…

winteryknight.com

And

4 out of 5 kids who question gender ‘grow out of it’: Transgender expert

Dr. Riittakerttu Kaltiala has presided over youth gender transition treatments for more than a decade.

nypost.com

Transgender Docs Warn About Gender-Affirmative Care for Youth

Leading experts on transgender medicine are accusing trans activists of muffling their concerns about the quality of evaluations of adolescents and young adults with gender dysphoria.

www.webmd.com

and in the video here;

 

[FireDragon76]

The experts in the field say that 70% of males grow out of gender dysphoria.

Even accepting that for the sake of argument, 30 percent of those won't outgrow the condition. And the validity of that statistic has been debated, especially given the clinical experience that many of those individuals will continue to have gender dysphoria later in adulthood.

See,

Leading gender dysphoria expert says 80% of children grow out of gender confusion

Progressives in America like to think that Europe is very far ahead of us. And since Europe is more progressive than us, we should become more progressive to catch up to them. But what happens when…

winteryknight.com

And

4 out of 5 kids who question gender ‘grow out of it’: Transgender expert

Dr. Riittakerttu Kaltiala has presided over youth gender transition treatments for more than a decade.

nypost.com

and in the video here;

Abigail Shrier is a lawyer, not a scientist or doctor, and has no particular expertise in the care of transsexual or transgender persons.

Here is a critique of her book, from the organization, Science Based Medicine:

Irreversible Damage to the Trans Community: A Critical Review of Abigail Shrier’s <em>Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters</em> (Part Two)

Part 2 of the review of Abigail Shrier's "Irreversible Damage" provides insight into her harmful beliefs about trans youth, along with evidence-based counterarguments.

sciencebasedmedicine.org

Here is a critique of her book from an actual medical doctor who promotes a skeptical blog. It's somewhat less negative, but still skeptical of her conclusions. The doctor concludes that we simply don't have enough scientific data on trans youth, but she still supports gender-affirming care for adults, including hormones and surgery:

Trans Science: A review of Abigail Shrier’s Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

A review by Dr. Harriet Hall of Abigail Shrier’s 2020 book Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters was originally published on Science-Based Medicine’s website and later removed and put under review by SBM’s Editors “due to concerns expressed over its scientific...

www.skeptic.com

 

[timf]

The Transgender Tragedy

There have been periods of history where people have had the opportunity to indulge various delusions. These were mostly limited to kings, emperors, and aristocracy. The present age is perhaps the first time that there has been such a widespread opportunity for many to so indulge themselves.

There was a newspaper photograph of a man who had his head completely tattooed with red and green patches and had his ears and nose surgically removed so he could support his delusion that he was a dragon. Today many children (for whom such fantasy and delusional thinking is more common) are being encouraged to damage themselves physically and irrevocably so that they can obtain a little more pleasure from artificially supporting their delusions.

One might think that the fact that half of the people encouraged down this road will attempt suicide would cause alarm. One might think it would be considered at least as dangerous as smoking. Sadly, most so-called social influencers seem to urge others down this road as if they would also cry out to a distressed soul standing at the edge of a roof to jump.

What usually brings an end to fantasy and delusions is reality. For the transgender, the intrusion of reality can be abrupt and filled with monumental regret. Parents who encourage children down this road may face the same lifelong haunting that parents who incited their sons to go off in a pointless war feel when their son comes back home crippled.

There are people like Mark Zuckerberg who are working to create technology like a virtual reality where one can indulge whatever one can imagine. Good parenting includes teaching children how to deal with reality, not how to flee from it. Some parents cloaked in self-righteousness declare that they are defending their children from those who would cause harm, blind to the fact that they are the ones who are causing harm.

Consider what the bible says;

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. - Luke 17:2

Our society took two hammer blows in the 20th century. The first was the theory of evolution cloaked as “science” which undercut the faith of many. The second was moral relativism which declared that there was no right or wrong. As a result, generations were born with no foundation in the knowledge of their creator and no idea that some of their ideas might be wrong and even harmful.

Forty years ago abortion was celebrated. Twenty years ago homosexuality was celebrated. Now transgenderism is being celebrated. The future does not look bright. The fifty year old woman with secret tears and sorrow for the child she lost, the aging homosexual suffering from disease and the ravages of drug and alcohol use, and now the aging youth beginning to recognize the effect of self-mutilation and considering suicide may all find redemption in the blood of Christ.

There is one who is the father of lies that sets the course of this world. Those vulnerable to his deceptions can pay a very high price. While not often can someone vulnerable be dissuaded from following the lies, those who can have gone down these roads and discovered the consequences of fleeing reality who may be more open to words of truth and love.

For their own good, children need to be skilled at dealing with reality. Hiding in an imaginary playland will only bring tears and sorrow for a neglected and misused life.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Transgender Tragedy

There have been periods of history where people have had the opportunity to indulge various delusions. These were mostly limited to kings, emperors, and aristocracy. The present age is perhaps the first time that there has been such a widespread opportunity for many to so indulge themselves.

There was a newspaper photograph of a man who had his head completely tattooed with red and green patches and had his ears and nose surgically removed so he could support his delusion that he was a dragon. Today many children (for whom such fantasy and delusional thinking is more common) are being encouraged to damage themselves physically and irrevocably so that they can obtain a little more pleasure from artificially supporting their delusions.

One might think that the fact that half of the people encouraged down this road will attempt suicide would cause alarm. One might think it would be considered at least as dangerous as smoking. Sadly, most so-called social influencers seem to urge others down this road as if they would also cry out to a distressed soul standing at the edge of a roof to jump.

What usually brings an end to fantasy and delusions is reality. For the transgender, the intrusion of reality can be abrupt and filled with monumental regret. Parents who encourage children down this road may face the same lifelong haunting that parents who incited their sons to go off in a pointless war feel when their son comes back home crippled.

There are people like Mark Zuckerberg who are working to create technology like a virtual reality where one can indulge whatever one can imagine. Good parenting includes teaching children how to deal with reality, not how to flee from it. Some parents cloaked in self-righteousness declare that they are defending their children from those who would cause harm, blind to the fact that they are the ones who are causing harm.

Consider what the bible says;

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. - Luke 17:2

Our society took two hammer blows in the 20th century. The first was the theory of evolution cloaked as “science” which undercut the faith of many.

And promoting pseudoscience does nothing to commend the Christian faith. Quite frankly, what you are promoting as truth, "Creationism", is disgracefully anti-intellectual. Somebody arguing for Creationism has no business lecturing the rest of us on objective truth.

The second was moral relativism which declared that there was no right or wrong.

Or maybe that Christians don't have a monopoly on truth claims.

A little intellectual humility would help Christians credibility a great deal. Less preaching, more learning.

 

[Lost Witness]

Less preaching, more learning.

This being a similar mindset to what eve had before she ate of the forbidden fruit.
Why live as the LORD has said or trust in what he's said to be true..
When clearly...
'learning' is more important than Truth..

 

[FireDragon76]

This being a similar mindset to what eve had before she ate of the forbidden fruit.
Why live as the LORD has said or trust in what he's said to be true..
When clearly...
'learning' is more important than Truth..

Truth is an ongoing process of discovery that is tied into moral and ethical considerations, even asceticism. It isn't simply unreflectively self-evident.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Even accepting that for the sake of argument, 30 percent of those won't outgrow the condition. And the validity of that statistic has been debated, especially given the clinical experience that many of those individuals will continue to have gender dysphoria later in adulthood.



Abigail Shrier is a lawyer, not a scientist or doctor, and has no particular expertise in the care of transsexual or transgender persons.

Here is a critique of her book, from the organization, Science Based Medicine:

Irreversible Damage to the Trans Community: A Critical Review of Abigail Shrier’s <em>Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters</em> (Part Two)

Part 2 of the review of Abigail Shrier's "Irreversible Damage" provides insight into her harmful beliefs about trans youth, along with evidence-based counterarguments.

sciencebasedmedicine.org

Here is a critique of her book from an actual medical doctor who promotes a skeptical blog. It's somewhat less negative, but still skeptical of her conclusions. The doctor concludes that we simply don't have enough scientific data on trans youth, but she still supports gender-affirming care for adults, including hormones and surgery:

Trans Science: A review of Abigail Shrier’s Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters

A review by Dr. Harriet Hall of Abigail Shrier’s 2020 book Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters was originally published on Science-Based Medicine’s website and later removed and put under review by SBM’s Editors “due to concerns expressed over its scientific...

www.skeptic.com

I was wrong, it's more than 70%

Abigail Shrier is a reporter and talks with the experts and provides the data they present her with.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And promoting pseudoscience does nothing to commend the Christian faith. Quite frankly, what you are promoting as truth, "Creationism", is disgracefully anti-intellectual. Somebody arguing for Creationism has no business lecturing the rest of us on objective truth.



Or maybe that Christians don't have a monopoly on truth claims.

A little intellectual humility would help Christians credibility a great deal. Less preaching, more learning.

OK so from your post, it seems to me that you believe there are multiple genders.
Men give birth and have ministration cycles too.

Transgendered, biological males, should be allowed to compete in women's sports,
even if it means they get the scholarships over the women.

The majority of scientists agree, that there are only two genders, male and female. It doesn't take
Scripture belief to know this.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Truth is an ongoing process of discovery that is tied into moral and ethical considerations, even asceticism. It isn't simply unreflectively self-evident.

There is only truth. Belief in something else doesn't change truth.

The only truth that exist is that which is revealed to us by God.

Making up your own truth doesn't make it real.

 

[Postvieww]

And promoting pseudoscience does nothing to commend the Christian faith. Quite frankly, what you are promoting as truth, "Creationism", is disgracefully anti-intellectual. Somebody arguing for Creationism has no business lecturing the rest of us on objective truth.

One who does not understand that scripture is not intellectually discerned has no business telling the rest of what is truth is!
1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wisein their own craftiness.

 

[Richard.20.12]

No it hasn't.

Well as I mentioned, in almost every gay person I was able to talk with at length, almost everyone had either direct sexual abuse or an extremely dysfunctional upbringing. Either one can alienate and repel them from the opposite sex. Now that's only about half a century of life experience of course. Maybe all the young gays now are happily well balanced. Right.

I don't think the Bible is as clear-cut as you claim in giving us those kinds of easy certainties or ethical mandates.

Like @2PhiloVoid , I believe in a more dialogical approach to the Scriptures. Our reading of the Bible must be confirmed in our experience of the world. If it doesn't lead us to exhibiting more of the fruits of the Spirit, of kindness and generosity towards our fellow human beings and towards the creation, then something is amiss.

If you don't correct someone that is walking to destruction I'd say you don't care about them. This spineless, mamby pamby attitude of "if it doesn't hurt anyone its OK" that is so very prevalent today shows a callous disregard for their fellow human. Now how you do that must be controlled, show empathy and lots of patience. We can't expect people to turn their life around right away. Most have had catastrophic pasts. This is something we cannot ever forget when ministering to them. I believe this is why so many gay men are so very sensitive to many things. They've been bruised emotionally. It has its effects. They need help with that. But thanks to the gay agenda, that is never encouraged. Instead they are prodded to explore the limits of their nauseating effemininity.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well as I mentioned, in almost every gay person I was able to talk with at length, almost everyone had either direct sexual abuse or an extremely dysfunctional upbringing.

This is simply untrue. Homosexual orientation isn't caused by ones upbringing.

 

[JacksBratt]

I think you mean you can't understand why they are NOT screaming foul at this whole thing. But that's an easy answer. Feminism and Transgenderism both come from the same side of the aisle.

You're correct. My error.
They come from the same side of the isle but they contradict each other. "A house divided"?

 

[Postvieww]

Are you seriously suggesting that evolution is true? That God created something then decided to let it hugely transform over billions of years because He lacked the skills to do it the way it was supposed to be done from the start? That God couldn't just do what He wanted right away? Does that make the slightest bit of sense to you? Its God we're talking about. He can get the job done right the first time. He doesn't need multiple tries. We do. He doesn't.

You must be confused. I in no way support evolution. Go back and read “tiimf” post #29 I agree with that post. Firedragon76 commented on that post in post # 30 taking a swipe at those who believe in creationism like “ intellectuals”have this all figured out . I was commenting on post # 30 which I disagree with. I believe the Genesis account as written. Evolution is junk science just like many claims on climate change and other claims on things such as alcoholism, homosexuality, transgenderism . Those that put what they believe to be science above scripture are not as intellectually developed as they think.