The Transgender Debate

[Richard.20.12]

Is there any indication of these guidelines of hospitality in the New Testament?

 

[Lost Witness]

2 Corinthians 10:5

 

[Eschatologist]

This is simply untrue. Homosexual orientation isn't caused by ones upbringing.

Actually, sexuality is a combination of nature and nurture. Some of sexuality is innate, but some of it is determined by sociocultural factors. Where it gets tricky is that it varies by the individual. Some people are more malleable to their environment than others.

Also, trauma can change sexuality. So, while it is debatable whether trauma is the primary source of homosexuality or not, it is not debatable that trauma can change someone's sexuality just like it can change various other things. For example, a high percentage of child abusers were abused as children themselves. A high percentage of those who beat their wives grew up in a household where their father beat their mother.

Normalization can be achieved through various means, both traumatic and cultural. For example, pedophilia was normal to certain social groups among the Ancient Greeks when you consider that many adult men openly had relations with young boys back then. That wasn't because Greeks were inherently more attracted to children. It was because the practice became normalized among certain social circles. There are various other cultures where this became normalized, both in the past and even in the present.

So, clearly, sexuality in a society can be influenced by media, academia, culture, and even government. Does it mean that sexuality is purely environmental? Of course not. But you can't deny that it isn't purely innate either, at least when looking at it on the aggregate societal level. Cultural preferences and tolerances strongly determine the prevalence of certain orientations.

 

[Eschatologist]

My point is that her assessments of the world in general tends to be cruel and cynical, and lack the kind of ethos I associate with good rhetoric.

It's too difficult to say what is happening in popular culture regarding gender, in terms of broad generalization. Paglia's critique sounds like a moral panic, and she makes broad sweeping generalizations about history that seem unwarranted. While most Americans favor non-discrimination against trans people in terms of housing, employment, and access to public facilities, they don't necessarily believe that gender should be the result merely of self-identification. Only a very small minority think that way. Other countries in the western world have generally taken a similar attitude, and have gone with evidence-based care for transgender individuals, over ideology.

I would say the world is cruel and cynical to begin with. 1st World inhabitants just have the luxury of distancing themselves from most forms of scarcity and barbarity. Depending on whether Ukraine escalates into WW3 or not, these conditions may change.

It's not that difficult to say what's happening in popular culture regarding gender if you research where much of gender ideology came from. John Money is the forefather of much of this ideology and is quite an insidious figure regarding his view of pedophilia. Alfred Kinsey's role in pushing certain ideas regarding sexuality are also of significance. His methodologies were suspect at best, and his own proclivities raised several questions about confirmation bias.

When you figure in the Marxist principles that underpin most leftist social movements regarding race, sex, gender, and orientation, it becomes clear that a lot of the trans narrative is nonsense. Unfortunately, the American Psychological Association is dominated by leftists, while our medical system has been compromised by financial interests in the very profitable practices of sex reassignment surgery and hormone therapy. Add to that the governmental pressure to forward the agenda in terms of legislation regarding "access to care" and supposed "discrimination."

In short, the West is taking a path that goes against both general sanity and Christianity in any meaningful sense.

 

[Eschatologist]

You must be confused. I in no way support evolution. Go back and read “tiimf” post #29 I agree with that post. Firedragon76 commented on that post in post # 30 taking a swipe at those who believe in creationism like “ intellectuals”have this all figured out . I was commenting on post # 30 which I disagree with. I believe the Genesis account as written. Evolution is junk science just like many claims on climate change and other claims on things such as alcoholism, homosexuality, transgenderism . Those that put what they believe to be science above scripture are not as intellectually developed as they think.

I'm new here, but from the posts I've read by you, I think we probably agree on most things.

That being said, evolution has far more evidence than anthropogenic global warming. I don't view evolution as being incompatible with Genesis. I tend to take Genesis more allegorically than some, in the same way that Augustine did.

At its simplest level, I figure that God had to provide a culture of people who had no concept of science a suitable explanation for things. If God had gone into the Big Bang, evolution, and quantum physics, He would have totally lost them.

Also, if you look at the order of life forms that are listed in Genesis by day, it broadly mirrors the order of life forms that developed in evolution. I think that's by more than a coincidence.

 

[Eschatologist]

The Transgender Tragedy

There have been periods of history where people have had the opportunity to indulge various delusions. These were mostly limited to kings, emperors, and aristocracy. The present age is perhaps the first time that there has been such a widespread opportunity for many to so indulge themselves.

There was a newspaper photograph of a man who had his head completely tattooed with red and green patches and had his ears and nose surgically removed so he could support his delusion that he was a dragon. Today many children (for whom such fantasy and delusional thinking is more common) are being encouraged to damage themselves physically and irrevocably so that they can obtain a little more pleasure from artificially supporting their delusions.

One might think that the fact that half of the people encouraged down this road will attempt suicide would cause alarm. One might think it would be considered at least as dangerous as smoking. Sadly, most so-called social influencers seem to urge others down this road as if they would also cry out to a distressed soul standing at the edge of a roof to jump.

What usually brings an end to fantasy and delusions is reality. For the transgender, the intrusion of reality can be abrupt and filled with monumental regret. Parents who encourage children down this road may face the same lifelong haunting that parents who incited their sons to go off in a pointless war feel when their son comes back home crippled.

There are people like Mark Zuckerberg who are working to create technology like a virtual reality where one can indulge whatever one can imagine. Good parenting includes teaching children how to deal with reality, not how to flee from it. Some parents cloaked in self-righteousness declare that they are defending their children from those who would cause harm, blind to the fact that they are the ones who are causing harm.

Consider what the bible says;

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. - Luke 17:2

Our society took two hammer blows in the 20th century. The first was the theory of evolution cloaked as “science” which undercut the faith of many. The second was moral relativism which declared that there was no right or wrong. As a result, generations were born with no foundation in the knowledge of their creator and no idea that some of their ideas might be wrong and even harmful.

Forty years ago abortion was celebrated. Twenty years ago homosexuality was celebrated. Now transgenderism is being celebrated. The future does not look bright. The fifty year old woman with secret tears and sorrow for the child she lost, the aging homosexual suffering from disease and the ravages of drug and alcohol use, and now the aging youth beginning to recognize the effect of self-mutilation and considering suicide may all find redemption in the blood of Christ.

There is one who is the father of lies that sets the course of this world. Those vulnerable to his deceptions can pay a very high price. While not often can someone vulnerable be dissuaded from following the lies, those who can have gone down these roads and discovered the consequences of fleeing reality who may be more open to words of truth and love.

For their own good, children need to be skilled at dealing with reality. Hiding in an imaginary playland will only bring tears and sorrow for a neglected and misused life.

While I'm sure evolution affected the faith of some, there are plenty of Christians that believe in evolution and do not see a contradiction with Genesis. Catholicism officially accepts evolution, for example.

 

[Eschatologist]

Fear mongering has never been a good look for followers of Jesus, who are taught that God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of strength, love, and sobriety of mind (2 Timothy 1:7)

A moral panic is the opposite of these things.

Trans people aren't some weird "other", but consist of real human persons. And our job, as followers of Jesus, is to engage real persons with compassion, understanding, and love. That's what "love your neighbor" entails.

-CryptoLutheran

I would agree that accepting people with compassion is the right approach, but furthering a mentally ill person's delusion is not Christian.

If you have a friend who's a compulsive gambler, you don't take him to the casino. If you have a friend who's an alcoholic, you don't take him to the bar.

Part of compassion involves "tough love." Sometimes, you have to stage an intervention. If Joe the bearded dude that looks like Randy Savage thinks he's a woman, you eventually have to tell him that this isn't going to work.

The irony here is that the left promotes "body positivity" for the morbidly obese but takes the opposite approach with those that are gender confused. They should be encouraging people to accept the body they were born with, not trying to sculpt them into science experiments.

 

[Eschatologist]

There is no debate, at most you can say they are not complying with your church and no one should be committed to the procedure prior to 18 but beyond that it's a secular matter...

The same is true of abortion, if you don't think it's ok then don't get one but beyond that it's a secular matter...

The same is there in drag shows and homosexuals, if you're against it stay away otherwise it's a secular matter...

If any of these have a sincere heart God will come to them, so our positions don't matter.

Our work is to expand the inclusiveness of our love, but it's not a mandate in any of these situations... they just want to be accepted as part of society as they are.

Take a look at Galatians 4:19-31 and we learn that our Kingdom is not of this world, that worldly affiliations enslave us.

That isn't contrary to Revelation 22:1-5 which is to come into the world but this is towards an absolute democracy such that all reign together, each having the light of God upon them.

1 John 4:7-21 tells us we can't love God if we don't love each other.

Abortion is definitely more than a secular matter. It's about deciding when life begins. If a society cannot make a consistent distinction on that, then you might as well legalize murder.

 

[BeyondET]

I would agree that accepting people with compassion is the right approach, but furthering a mentally ill person's delusion is not Christian.

If you have a friend who's a compulsive gambler, you don't take him to the casino. If you have a friend who's an alcoholic, you don't take him to the bar.

Part of compassion involves "tough love." Sometimes, you have to stage an intervention. If Joe the bearded dude that looks like Randy Savage thinks he's a woman, you eventually have to tell him that this isn't going to work.

The irony here is that the left promotes "body positivity" for the morbidly obese but takes the opposite approach with those that are gender confused. They should be encouraging people to accept the body they were born with, not trying to sculpt them into science experiments.

I agree the lefts approach isnt sociological help. The first choice is a knife.

 

[Eschatologist]

I understand the Old Testament through an historical-critical lens. I don't see it as eternal truths about God for all peoples for all time. It reflects a particular time and culture, and their experiences of God.

While it is true that cultural context plays heavily into all parts of the Bible, the Bible does consistently regard homosexuality as sinful.

 

[Eschatologist]

I agree!

Hormones play a larger role in homosexual orientation than anything else. A homosexual can not
be changed to have heterosexual desires.

It's why the transgender claim that sexuality is a social construct falls on it's face.

Individuals vary a lot on this. Trauma can cause some pretty dramatic changes in many people. A lot of asexual people were sexually abused, for example. Trauma can cause a person to feel nauseous during any sort of physical intimacy. Not many people are born asexual -- it's very commonly an indicator of past abuse.

By the same logic, someone could theoretically be conditioned to be gay or straight, but the success of said conditioning has a higher likelihood the younger the person is. Children are extremely malleable in their perceptions and preferences. Adults tend to be more set in their ways.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Individuals vary a lot on this. Trauma can cause some pretty dramatic changes in many people. A lot of asexual people were sexually abused, for example. Trauma can cause a person to feel nauseous during any sort of physical intimacy. Not many people are born asexual -- it's very commonly an indicator of past abuse.

By the same logic, someone could theoretically be conditioned to be gay or straight, but the success of said conditioning has a higher likelihood the younger the person is. Children are extremely malleable in their perceptions and preferences. Adults tend to be more set in their ways.

A study that was presented on PBS Frontline years ago, found that the majority of homosexual
men's(they only looked at male homosexuality), mothers in the study, had gone through some form of
stress, while pregnant. The scientists observed that the mother's bodies had used the little
testosterone they had in order to get through the stress, which normally would've gone to the male fetus.
The results were that the males where born with a deficiency of testosterone. They even gave homosexual
males who had volunteered, testosterone shots and those males became more attracted to females.
It wasn't consistent however. Also, the treatment didn't last long and they returned to having desires for
other males.

It convinced me that homosexual desires among males, is driven primarily by hormones.

Heterosexual males have no desire to have sex with other males. In fact, for many the mere
thought is a gross turn-off.

 

[Christson 24]

In my opinion, one person cannot be a "feminist" and agree with the entire transgender movement.

Case in point.. You cannot be a strong believer in the rights of women, women sports, women in the workplace, .... and then accept that a man can simply state that he "feels" like a woman... and walk in to a women's sport and break all the records.

How rude and dissrespectful for a man to simply "feel" like he's a woman and thus nullify all the progress that women, fighting for their rights have made.

It was nice to see the coach of a women's weight lifting team go into a competition and smash the new bench press record by 100 lbs.

He did this as the record lift that he beat... was set by a man who felt that he was a woman...

Who complained? The transgender female, who was actually a biological man.. complained that a man broke his record.

I full well beleive that men and women are different. We need each other. I believe in equal work... gets equal pay. I believe men are better at some things and women are better at others.

I don't think men and women can do without each other.

I cannot understand why the womens rights and feminist movement is not (edit) sceaming "foul" at the top of their lungs over this who thing.

You are right with your observations,man and women need each other and they cannot do without each other but some people feels different due to their feels and people should respect there right to there own opinion,

 

[RileyG]

There is no debate. Men do not know what it's like to be a woman. Women do not know what it's like to be a man. Transgenderism is nothing but a delusion. IMHO.

 

[RileyG]

Feelings mean nothing. Feelings come and go. They do not define reality.

 

[JacksBratt]

You are right with your observations,man and women need each other and they cannot do without each other but some people feels different due to their feels and people should respect there right to there own opinion,

I don't disagree. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. I don't really care what you do inside your house. I don't really care what you think...
What is wrong is to tell the children that you can have little boy parts and become a little girl.

The whole problem is that this "idea" is in their heads.

Do we tell people with schizophrenia to that the voices they hear are real and they should do what the voices tell them to do?

No, that would be harmful to them and the people around them.

There is "male" and "female". God made it so and stated such.

Some men may be more feminine and some women are more masculine. That doesn't change their sex.

If you dig up any human body... they can undeniably tell you whether it was male or female. It's Science and we are supposed to believe the science.... right?

So, if a man believes he is a woman... so be it... If he wants to have plastic surgery to help him in his "feelings", again, so be it.. But don't make me pay for it... don't expect me to call him a woman, and don't expect me to stand by and have people like him go to young impressionable children and project his issue on to these children who are expecting all adults to be the solid truth.


If someone is 18 years old and still thinks that they are the opposite sex... that is way different than going into a class of 6, , 8 year olds and telling them that they can be the opposite sex..

Some think that they are cats, dogs whatever. What a child feels like at that tender age is far different than what they will feel as an adult.

 

[Postvieww]

Trans woman is cleared of flashing penis because she's too FAT How can this be happening in America?

 

[iarwain]

Abortion is definitely more than a secular matter. It's about deciding when life begins. If a society cannot make a consistent distinction on that, then you might as well legalize murder.

Agreed, and furthermore abortion is also a question about sexual morality. Those who subscribe to the "anything goes" hedonism in the culture today do not want to face the natural consequences of having sex, thus they fiercely support abortion.