The Torah is still valid..

[Kaon]

So we have to make an assumption that Adam observed the sabbath? Because scripture does not explicitly state that Adam honored the sabbath.

The written law was given to us because we are too ignorant to know right from wrong on our own. It is actually quite pathetic.

When Adam and Eve were fresh off of perfection, and actually communion with the Word of God, they knew His Law as intimately as any child knows the written and unwritten rules of their parents. Adam knew the expectations of the Most High God, which is why the children knew to give sacrifices after they fell. They were taught by their parents (Adam and Eve.)

Whenever you see the Law written - given - to us, it is because we "forgot the face of our Father." We became lost, and the Law points us back in the right direction.


When the Redeemer was coming, the Most High God set to re-instate the original unity and community He had with His people by writing the Law on our hearts - the same way the wise Patriarchs, Adam, the Prophets, and so on knew His Law before it was written.

This is why the Law of the Most High God has never, and will not pass away.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yeshua freed us from the CURSE of the Law...

No he became a curse for us. We cannot do anything without him.

And cursed is he who does not continue in all things written in the law. If a man wants to go back under the bondage of the law he must continue in all things written in the law. But no believer is under the law again.

And we must not try to mix the law of Moses with the grace in Christ.

Paul says similar in Galatians 3 and Romans 7

Consider this section closely

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."(Romans 7:1-4 KJV)

So when some today try to mix the law of Moses with the freedom in Christ, they are in some sense spiritually in adultery as Paul says here.

I hear some imply that now that they have come to Christ they can now keep the law and follow Moses rightly. This is exactly what Paul is saying is wrong. Also read Galatians three closely.

 

[claninja]

Adam knew the expectations of the Most High God, which is why the children knew to give sacrifices after they fell. They were taught by their parents (Adam and Eve.)

And we have scripture that states they performed animal sacrifices.

We have scripture that it was wrong to murder (Cain and Abel)

We have scripture that Joseph knew it would be wrong to sleep with potiphers wife

We have scripture that sodom and Gomorrah had sinned.

But we do not have scripture that they kept the sabbath prior to Moses and the Israelites

This is why the Law of the Most High God has never, and will not pass away.

Which part of the law? Some or all?

Because the law did change with Christ:


For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.
Hebrews 7:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 7:12&version=ESV

 

[Kaon]

And we have scripture that states they performed animal sacrifices.

We have scripture that it was wrong to murder (Cain and Abel)

We have scripture that Joseph knew it would be wrong to sleep with potiphers wife

We have scripture that sodom and Gomorrah had sinned.

But we do not have scripture that they kept the sabbath prior to Moses and the Israelites

In the canon, maybe.

But, honestly if we need writings or tablets to know what the Most High God expects of us, then that is a sign of our incredible spiritual degeneracy. Just like any parent, they expect you to know what they expect of you based on 1) love, 2) communication, and 3) respect for them.


If the Most High God Himself made the Sabbath day Holy from Creation, then it is probably safe to say His images would also need to hold the seventh day holy as a communion with Him. The antediluvian people realized this without documents to tell them what to do.

Which part of the law? Some or all?

Because the law did change with Christ:


For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.
Hebrews 7:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 7:12&version=ESV

It didn't change, it just doesn't exalt its recognition through the sons of Levi. No one is more qualified than the Redeemer to be a priest - and since He is the authority, He is the Priest and King. That is a matter of consequence; our ridiculously fallen nature is nowhere near comparative to the perfection of the Redeemer - just like our ability to judge is embarrassingly outclassed by the Redeemer.

Notice,He didn't remove it, or make it null. That would be asinine, because that would be He would be making Himself null, or void (He is the Living Word of God, and the Law is part of the Word of God.)

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I believe Jesus was talking about what is lawful on the sabbath in regards to the law of Moses.

Again, where does it say Adam remembered the sabbath by keeping it holy? You still have not provided scripture for this.

Yeshua said so...It was given to Adam

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No he became a curse for us. We cannot do anything without him.

And cursed is he who does not continue in all things written in the law. If a man wants to go back under the bondage of the law he must continue in all things written in the law. But no believer is under the law again.

And we must not try to mix the law of Moses with the grace in Christ.

Paul says similar in Galatians 3 and Romans 7

You are mistaken, the Law is not for salvation. Yes Yeshua freed us from the curse by becoming it.

 

[claninja]

But, honestly if we need writings or tablets to know what the Most High God expects of us, then that is a sign of our incredible spiritual degeneracy.

Which is why God gave the law of moses, no?

Just like any parent, they expect you to know what they expect of you based on 1) love, 2) communication, and 3) respect for them.

Yes, but certain things like the Sabbath, food and drink rituals, and sacrifice ordinances would have to be taught. That is not something written on their heart.

If the Most High God Himself made the Sabbath day Holy from Creation, then it is probably safe to say His images would also need to hold the seventh day holy as a communion with Him. The antediluvian people realized this without documents to tell them what to do.

and yet there is no scripture that states anyone prior to Moses and the Israelites were commanded to keep the Sabbath.

It didn't change,

Notice,He didn't remove it

According to the author of Hebrews, when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change/removal of what? the law.

Hebrews 7:12 when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change (metathesis) in the law as well

metathesis: a change, removal
Original Word: μετάθεσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metathesis
Phonetic Spelling: (met-ath'-es-is)
Short Definition: change, transformation, removal
Definition: (a) change, transformation, (b) removal.

 

[claninja]

Yeshua said so...It was given to Adam

Please provide scripture where adam was commanded to keep the Sabbath.

 

[Kaon]

Which is why God gave the law of moses, no?



Yes, but certain things like the Sabbath, food and drink rituals, and sacrifice ordinances would have to be taught. That is not something written on their heart.



and yet there is no scripture that states anyone prior to Moses and the Israelites were commanded to keep the Sabbath.




According to the author of Hebrews, when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change/removal of what? the law.

Hebrews 7:12 when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change (metathesis) in the law as well

metathesis: a change, removal
Original Word: μετάθεσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metathesis
Phonetic Spelling: (met-ath'-es-is)
Short Definition: change, transformation, removal
Definition: (a) change, transformation, (b) removal.

Ok.

 

[discipler7]

The Torah is still valid..
..for whom it was originally intended for, i.e. the Jewish People.

.
Actually, the Torah or God's Law or Moses Law is still valid but has changed in its application with time, ie in how the Torah was applied to the Jews during the Old Testament(OT) era and in how the Torah is applied to the Gentile Christians(GC) and Jewish Christians during the New Testament(NT) era.(ROMANS.11 - the rejection of Israel)

As per ACTS.15:24-29, the Holy Spirit of God has exempted Gentile Christians from all the burdensome laws found in Moses Law, eg circumcision and kosher foods. They are to begin their born-again lives in the Spirit by keeping 4 simple laws of Moses, ie avoid eating blood, strangled animals, idol-sacrificed food and sexual immorality = minimum legal requirement, in order to escape the curse of God for sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking.
....... This was to prevent GC from losing their newfound faith in Jesus Christ because of the heavy burden of fully keeping Moses Law since most Gentiles had led lawless lives from childhood = cursed by God with a sad and short life on earth.
....... IOW, for GC adults who might be carrying some curses before they converted,(eg drug addiction, alcoholism, mental disorders, STDs, etc) eternal life through faith in Christ trumps a long life on earth through the Law of Moses. Like they say, "Election has consequences" or "What's done is done and what's past is past" or "You can't turn back time".

In comparison, Jewish Christians were required by God to continue to fully keep Moses Law, as many laws as possible, because it was not a burden to them = no risk of them losing their newfound faith in Christ because of the heavy burden of the Law since most Jews had kept the Law from childhood = blessed by God with a good and long life on earth.

Keeping the Law, either partially or fully, brings earthly blessings from God = DEUT.28, ROMANS.2:10.
....... Hence in USA, many good and law-abiding Jews are well-off and live long on earth = blessed by God, even though they won't have eternal life or be saved from hell when they die.

God's ideal is Jewish Christians or Messianic Jews who receive both earthly and heavenly blessings from God, ie earthly blessing through Moses Law and heavenly blessing through faith in Jesus Christ.(MATTHEW.19:16-23)

HEBREWS.8:10 = 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

 

[fat wee robin]

It only proves the sabbath was for the folks God brought out of Egypt and placed into a warm climate. Until Jesus abolished the Sabbath and circumcision along with the Ten Commandments on the cross.

The ten commandments are still valid.

 

[fat wee robin]

Then you do not understand what He said...Man (Adam) was created on the 6th day.

Well what about me and people like me who know that Creation did not start with Adam 6000 years ago ,but know that Jesus is Lord and Saviour .There is much to dispute that Adam was the very first man ,and that the Original Creation was only some thousands of years ago -a drop in the ocean of the time since God created the heavens and the earth .

 

[salt-n-light]

What I quoted came directly from the Word of God Himself - He is the Arbiter of the Law and the only One who has authority to change it.

If He said it, it is. No one is "disnefying" the Most High God except people who would think we could freely disobey Him, and still reap the same rewards despite what He said. The Sabbath was a gift to man, and if the Hebrews were fine being saved from slavery in Egypt but cant understand why their God would demand they take one day - the seventh day - for rest, then the penalty is consequential. Their penalty is the foolishness that comes from the ignorance of the Sabbath.

Where did the Most High God, or the Word of God ever say that we could dismiss, void or make inoperable His Law?

Noooooooooooo the penalty was Death. Again, if you gonna tell people not to disregard Sabbath, then you have to give the entire law. The commmand and consequence. No chopping.

Plus that scripture was in terms of adultery, show me in terms of Sabbath Jesus said “He that is without sin cast the first stone”.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

.
They are to begin their born-again lives in the Spirit by keeping 4 simple laws of Moses, ie avoid eating blood, strangled animals, idol-sacrificed food and sexual immorality = minimum legal requirement, in order to escape the curse of God for sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking.

They are Noahide laws

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well what about me and people like me who know that Creation did not start with Adam 6000 years ago ,but know that Jesus is Lord and Saviour .There is much to dispute that Adam was the very first man ,and that the Original Creation was only some thousands of years ago -a drop in the ocean of the time since God created the heavens and the earth .

What does that matter? Did the Almighty create man and the Sabbath?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Please provide scripture where adam was commanded to keep the Sabbath.

Read Genesis and Yeshua said it was made for Adam

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Noooooooooooo the penalty was Death. Again, if you gonna tell people not to disregard Sabbath, then you have to give the entire law. The commmand and consequence. No chopping.

Plus that scripture was in terms of adultery, show me in terms of Sabbath Jesus said “He that is without sin cast the first stone”.

The Sabbath and marriage were given to adam (man) at creation...Yeshua said so

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

..for whom it was originally intended for, i.e. the Jewish People.

Jesus says in Matthew 24 (NRSV) about the end times (which of course comes after Jesus' crucifixion)

“So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; 17 the one on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; 18 the one in the field must not turn back to get a coat. 19 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah! or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Jesus says the Sabbath is still valid.

The physical Sabbath still exists, certainly. Christians aren't required to keep it as we have the true meaning of keeping the Sabbath by rest from dead works (Heb 4), but it's not like the day changed. Many early Christians, including Paul, still kept the Sabbath.

However, note that this passage does not say 'pray that your flight is not on the Sabbath because you might violate it.' Rather, pregnant, nursing, winter and Sabbath all stand for further hardships on the flight.

If their flight was on the Sabbath it would be noticed. It's hard to subtly make your exit when you are the only one walking a long distance on the Sabbath - you'd really stick out to the watching Jews.They might try to stop you, or persecute you.

Fortunately, the Christians who took warning of the signs and used the six month lift in the siege as a window to make their escape through the mountains to Pella and other safe havens were saved from dying in the siege. Though history doesn't record the death of a single Christian in the seige, we know the Jewish population was cut by half from about 4 million to about 2 million.

 

[Kaon]

Noooooooooooo the penalty was Death. Again, if you gonna tell people not to disregard Sabbath, then you have to give the entire law. The commmand and consequence. No chopping.

That is right. None of the Law has been done away with.

The Sabbath was a gift to man, and if the Hebrews were fine being saved from slavery in Egypt but cant understand why their God would demand they take one day - the seventh day - for rest, then the penalty is consequential. Their penalty is the foolishness that comes from the ignorance of the Sabbath.

Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time? Ecclesiastes 7:17
​

Of course the penalty for disobeying the Most High God is death; that is why I said the punishment is consequential to the behavior.


But, there is no place where the Most High God, or the Word of God Himself ever said that any part of the Law is set aside, done away with or void.

Plus that scripture was in terms of adultery, show me in terms of Sabbath Jesus said “He that is without sin cast the first stone”.

You are missing the context. The Word of God never said the law was void, He said that whoever is without sin cast the first stone. Fortunately, no one except the Word of God qualified stone her - not even the Pharisees.

So, in the presence of this alleged charlatan they were trying to pass off as a fake Christ (who was actually the One,) they were still too convicted to do the Law of the Most High God? You bet; they knew He was the One, which is why they left to try and devise a way to attack His character (and, eventual life.)


You are not qualified to stone people because you sinned, and because your KING told you to execute mercy first. Does He need to find someone in danger of being stoned for every unique sin in order for us to get the teaching exercise about mercy? You don't know how to execute mercy. The Pharisees and lost had a binary version of the law without being able to correctly judge shades of gray (either we follow it, or throw it out.)

But, you are not alone; none of us actually know how to qualify to the Law to be worthy to be judges - not yet. Remember, when we get our perfected body, the judgement laws seem to go back into effect because the saints will be qualified to judge people.


It is like any parent that gives their sophomoric, short-sighted child a privilege or charge: initially the dilettante believes s/he can do it. However, when s/he realizes how painfully unprepared s/he is to take the charge, the parent has to come in and set boundaries.

God gave the Hebrews the charge to be judges; and entire tribe was devoted to it (and, what happened to DAN?) Then, when men went whoring against the Most High, and gave vain oblations, He had to literally come down here and set boundaries (i.e. stop stoning people to death when you do the same evil stuff.)

 

[claninja]

Read Genesis and Yeshua said it was made for Adam

Jesus, in genesis, states the sabbath was made for adam? chapter and verse please.