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Featured The Torah is still valid..

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Rubiks, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    It means that He was born from the physical tribe of Judah, meaning He followed the Commandments.
     
  2. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    You understand nothing regarding the law. Yes I capiche, you do not. You are equating the healing of the man with a direct prohibition regarding gathering wood for a fire on Shabbat. Yeshua NEVER told anyone to violate Torah.
     
  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    My Bible tells me that the servant of the Lord must not strive; so suffice it to say that I disagree with you and we will leave it at that. Romans 7:6 is key to our understanding however.
     
  4. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Yet that verse has nothing to do with Yeshua breaking the Sabbath or are you equating the healing of the man with a direct prohibition regarding gathering wood for a fire on Shabbat. Again, Yeshua NEVER told anyone to violate Torah.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    So it was not a violation of the sabbath for the lame man to carry his bed on the sabbath day (John 5:8-12, John 5:18)?

    Exodus 20:9-11, Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it shalt thou not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it.

    It's not work for me to carry my bed, obviously.

    Sometimes you can end up believing things that are absolutely absurd (such as it is not work to carry something) when you have a bias about some teaching in God's word. People lose all rationality and begin to think things are true that cannot possibly be true, that go against what your eyes see in front of you.

    I'm waiting for you to tell me that to carry something is not work. That would be an indication that you have been completely blinded to reality because of your bias.
     
  6. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Why do YOU think it was? It was likely his only possession and was not a bed like we think of today. It was a small mat (krabatton in Greek). Would you consider that a burden? Do you understand what work (Melakhah) is? The lame man does not come under this prohibition. Do you not find it contradictory to your premise that a few verses later in John 5:14 Yeshua finds the man in the Temple and tells him not to sin, yet you say Yeshua told him to break Shabbat earlier?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Why don't you educate me.
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    In the New Testament it is not a sin to break shabbat. Hebrews 7:12, Colossians 2:16-17.
     
  9. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    You understand neither verse nor do either prove Yeshua ever broke the Sabbath or told the lame man to...
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Okay. Believe what you want to believe. It is not an essential issue or doctrine.
     
  11. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    I believe Yeshua and Scripture. Not essential? You are teaching that Yeshua broke the Commandments and also taught others to do so!!!! Matthew 5:19
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    John 5:18, did Jesus claim to be equal with God? Then He also broke the sabbath.

    I don't need to argue with you any further. I know what my Bible says.

    You have a preconceived bias that prevents you from seeing the truth.

    All you have to do is take the scripture at face value and you will know that what I am saying is true.

    Jesus didn't sin. He was High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec, after the power of an endless life; He was not subject to the law of Moses under the Levitical priesthood.

    Colossians 2:16-17 tells me clearly that in the New Testament it is not a sin to break the sabbath.
     
  13. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    He was from the PHYSICAL tribe of Judah, so YES, He was born UNDER THE LAW...PAUL even says so...you are right, you do not need to argue with me any further because YOU HAVE NO ARGUEMENT!
     
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Hebrews 7:12-17, For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda, of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchizedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedec.

    In Matthew 12, Jesus broke the sabbath again. He justified it by citing the example of David, how he ate the shewbread, which was not lawful for the common people to eat; and was blameless. And also how the priests in the temple violated the sabbath doing the work of the sanctuary and were blameless.

    To Jesus, the priests doing the work of the sanctuary on a Saturday was a technical violation of the sabbath; but lo and behold, they were excused because of the temple: and Jesus is greater than the temple.

    He has the power of an endless life. He is without sin in His nature and character. And therefore, the fact that He violated the letter of the sabbath day law does not mean in any way that He sinned. Jesus Himself was greater than the temple, He is the Son of God. Jesus Himself is the Lord of the sabbath day; that means He created it and is therefore not bound by it: and if He violated the letter of the sabbath day law it does not mean that His character and nature of perfect holiness was in any way compromised. The sabbath is an outward requirement; but its fulfillment in the New Testament is that it boils down to a relationship with the Lord (as an inward law). Jesus' relationship with the Father was perfect, and I am certain that He Himself esteemed every day alike (see Romans 14:5). The sabbath was fulfilled in Him in that He had a perfect relationship with the Father, not in the observing of a specific day. For what is the purpose of the sabbath? Is it not that we set aside time to spend sitting at the feet of Jesus to hear from Him in His word, resting from our labours just to sit at His feet? That good part will not be taken away from us. We are not cumbered about by many things as was Martha; but we have chosen that good part of sitting at the feet of Jesus hearing from Him. See Luke 10:38-42.

    But if you believe that the letter of the sabbath day law is not a nonessential of the faith, then be fully convinced in your own mind. Believe it with all of your heart; and be sure to never even start up your car on any given Saturday; because that is kindling a fire.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
  15. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Again, you are desperately trying to make connections where there are none. NONE of what you wrote proves or even suggests that He ever broke the sabbath or ever taught anyone to break it.
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Have it your way...what I see in John 5:18 is a plain declaration by John that Jesus claimed to be equal with God...and that He broke the sabbath according to John's testimony by the Holy Spirit.

    But you may be right, and John was really saying that Jesus broke the sabbath in the Pharisees' eyes...I guess that John and the Holy Spirit, too, are not very good writers...they didn't accurately portray what they really wanted to say. All it would have taken would have been to add a few words, to have John 5:18 say, Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath in their eyes, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    But it doesn't say that. John, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, testifies that Jesus broke the sabbath period:

    John 5:18,
    Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath, but said that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    But to me, it isn't anything that I find essential to salvation, that you should believe that Jesus broke the sabbath...it is a deeper understanding that some may reject even because they have a high view of God's law and do not want to see it diminished by any teaching.

    I would only say that the law is a schoolmaster to lead you to Christ. Once faith comes, you will no longer be under a schoolmaster.
     
  17. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Yet we KNOW that what Yeshua did, did NOT break the Sabbath. We KNOW that the Pharisees SAID He did and also called Him a blasphemer because He said The Almighty was His Father. So you agree with them? John was explaining they wanted to kill him because they said He broke the Sabbath AND He made Himself equal to The Almighty. They have said so previously. Matthew 12:10-12

    BTW, Shabbat Shalom :)
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Jesus is the Lord of the sabbath and redefined the sabbath laws before the Pharisees. Whereas they said that no work whatsoever is allowed, according to the letter of Exodus 20:9-11, Jesus taught that it is okay to do work on the sabbath if it is virtuous.

    Technically, He broke the sabbath as they (and the apostle John) understood it. Since John 5:18 is inspired by the Holy Spirit, I would say also as the Holy Spirit understood it.

    But even though He broke the technical letter of the law of the sabbath, He did not come after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. He did not sin because He is the Lord of the sabbath, He created it and therefore He is able to redefine it.

    He never broke the spirit of the sabbath law because His communion with the Father was never broken. He also said in John 5:17, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. After which John testifies that He broke the sabbath in John 5:18. Jesus in John 5:17 claimed to work on the sabbath day; and this would be a violation of the letter of Exodus 20:9-11. But because Jesus is Lord of the sabbath, He was able to redefine it according to the spirit of what the sabbath day is all about; for He taught that it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. Therefore He did not sin by technically violating the sabbath in that He worked on the sabbath alongside of His Father; but He was doing the righteous thing and did not violate the sabbath as He had redefined it to the Pharisees and scribes.

    Note that in Exodus 20:10 any work is forbidden according to the letter of the Old Testament. therefore in doing any work Jesus was violating the letter of the Old Testament. However His coming was not after the law of a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life; and He lived what the Holy Spirit would later teach us in Romans 7:6 and 2 Corinthians 3:6; that it is not the letter of the law that binds us as Christians, but that it is the spirit of the law that we are to abide in.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Likewise; may the Lord abundantly bless you today! :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  20. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    There is NO prohibition regarding doing good works on the Sabbath. You can keep repeating that he broke the Law, but it is not so. His "work" was doing the work of the Almighty...doing GOOD, which does NOT break the Law of The Almighty. To tell you the truth, I think we actually are kind of saying the same thing, but disagree in the way we are expressing it. Shavua Tov!
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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