The Torah is still valid..

[justbyfaith]

There is NO prohibition regarding doing good works on the Sabbath. You can keep repeating that he broke the Law, but it is not so. His "work" was doing the work of the Almighty...doing GOOD, which does NOT break the Law of The Almighty. To tell you the truth, I think we actually are kind of saying the same thing, but disagree in the way we are expressing it. Shavua Tov!

Yes; according to the spirit of the law, to do well on the sabbath is not to break the law of God; Jesus redefined the sabbath and taught that it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Yet Exodus 20:10 says specifically:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor anything that is within thy gates.

So then, the letter of the Old Testament sabbath law prohibited us to do any work on the sabbath days.

Nevertheless the Lord pointed out that the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath; and that He is the Lord of the sabbath.

Therefore because of these things, it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. If you have an ox or donkey that falls into a pit on the sabbath day, it is certainly lawful for you to lift it out of the pit. And how much better is a man than a sheep?

So Jesus was not violating the spirit of the law in doing what He did, when He violated the letter of the sabbath day laws: He was obeying the higher law of love.

Just as Corrie Ten Boom in Nazi Germany: the story of how her family lied to the Nazis in order to harbor Jewish people and save their lives from certain death. It can be said that in not telling the truth, she and her family violated the letter of the law; but in taking a closer look, she did not violate the spirit of the law because a higher law of love was applicable, that superseded the law about telling the truth.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes; according to the spirit of the law, to do well on the sabbath is not to break the law of God; Jesus redefined the sabbath and taught that it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Nevertheless the Lord pointed out that the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath; and that He is the Lord of the sabbath.

Therefore because of these things, it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. If you have an ox or donkey that falls into a pit on the sabbath day, it is certainly lawful for you to lift it out of the pit. And how much better is a man than a sheep?

So Jesus was not violating the spirit of the law in doing what He did, when He violated the letter of the sabbath day laws: He was obeying the higher law of love.

It was never unlawful to do good works on the Sabbath. So there was actually no violation of the letter or the spirit. Adam was created on the 6th day, while the Sabbath was on the 7th, thus the Sabbath was made after Adam was created, so it was made for him.

 

[justbyfaith]

All you have to do is look at the letter of Exodus 20:10, and you will see that in that verse any work is prohibited on the sabbath day, according to the letter.

 

[justbyfaith]

This has been a good discussion impaho.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

All you have to do is look at the letter of Exodus 20:10, and you will see that in that verse any work is prohibited on the sabbath day, according to the letter.

You need to understand what that ("work") entails

 

[justbyfaith]

You need to understand what that ("work") entails

Please elaborate further.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Please elaborate further.

"Melakah" is "work" associated with occupation, creation, physical labor, commerce, business, servile work, selling, buying, etc...

 

[justbyfaith]

Is it physical labour for a man to carry his bed?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Is it physical labour for a man to carry his bed?

In this case, it being just a mat, no. It is not associated with any of the other work

 

[justbyfaith]

That's where we disagree. How much does something have to weigh before carrying it is physical labour?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That's where we disagree. How much does something have to weigh before carrying it is physical labour?

it is not just about weight per se...it is not a bed, it was a small mat

 

[Soyeong]

The essence of the law is still valid, but not by adhering to the set of rules as spelled out in the 613 laws. One could follow each and every law to the letter and still not be saved and this is the message Jesus brought to us. Just as the Pharisee who invited Jesus to dinner performed the ceremonial washing of the cup, Jesus pointed out that the outside is clean, but the inside is still dirty. The point: An outward act doesn't make us holy. It doesn't save us. Our only salvation is in loving God with all our heart, all our soul and all our might and loving our neighbor the same. If we do that, all other things will fall into place.

We are not saved by obeying God's Law primarily because it was never given for that purpose in the first place, nor was it intended to be obeyed by the letter, but by the spirit. However, the fact that we aren't saved by obeying God's laws doesn't mean that we don't need to obey them. In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love and obey His commands and in Isaiah 29:13, God disdained it when His people honored him with their lips, so obedience to God has always been a matter of the heart. Obedience to God has never made us righteous or holy, but rather it is what we are to do because God has made us righteous and holy. When we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God gives us His righteousness and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His Law. In Deuteronomy 10:12-13, it defined what it looks like to love God with all of our heart and soul. Jesus expressed His love through His actions and what that looked like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, and that is how we are to love as he loved us.

Regarding the Sabbath, it is important to our well being, first of all. Jesus said, the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. In other words, we have the sabbath to give us rest and to allow us to reconnect with God and re-energize. Yes it is still valid, but again, if we love God with all we are, we'll WANT to spend some time with him. But what if we obey the sabbath by not doing any work, but we also ignore God. We don't pray, we don't offer thanksgiving, we just take the day off? Maybe we go to Church, but then the minute we leave, we put God on the back burner and go to the park or go to friends and enjoy their company without a thought of God? Is that obeying the sabbath?

The point of taking a break from our work is to have time to focus on God's love for us, so without that it would be missing the whole point. In Philippians 3:8, Paul counted His outward obedience to God's Law without having a focus on growing in a relationship with Christ to be rubbish because he had been missing the whole point. So the right solution to incorrectly obeying the Law is to start obeying it correctly with the right focus.

Is the sabbath actually Saturday or does it matter as long as 1 day out of every 6 you worship God and rest from your normal work? It is so easy to get caught up in obeying the rules that we miss the point. It is similar with the food laws. In times of sacrifice, many pagans/gentiles sacrificed animals to gods an din most cases it was swine which is one of the reasons God made it a detestable animal. But Paul was clear, if you can eat it without associating it to another god, then it's ok, but don't let someone who can't make that discernment partake or see you eating it either.

If God had wanted us to take one day out of the week off to worship Him, then that it what He would have commanded, but he only blessed the 7th day and made it holy and commanded His followers to observe it. Paul was a servant of god, not His enemy, so you should not interpret him as speaking against obeying what He command. The issue of whether it is permissible to eat an offering that had previously been offered to idols is independent from the issue of whether it is permissible to eat swine.

So yea, I agree that the spirit of the Torah is still very much a part of our worship, but not in it's specific set of rules, but rather what's in our hearts.

To love God is to obey His commands (1 John 5:3), so there is no sense is saying that what matters is what's in our hearts as justification for not obeying God's commands. Rather if our hearts are in the right place then we will obey God's commands.

 

[Soyeong]

It only proves the sabbath was for the folks God brought out of Egypt and placed into a warm climate. Until Jesus abolished the Sabbath and circumcision along with the Ten Commandments on the cross.

Crosses were never used for the purpose of abolishing laws. Whenever someone was crucified they would make a sign that listed the charges that were against them and nail it to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed (Matthew 27:37). This works as a perfect analogy for the list of the sins that we have committed being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with abolishing God's eternal laws. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to free us from God's Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness. In other words, he gave himself to free us from sin, not to free us so that we could do the things that God revealed to be sin.

 

[Soyeong]

The point is you cannot keep the sabbath without keeping all of the Law.

“For the one who obeys the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.” (James 2:10)

In James 2:1-10, he was not trying to warn them away from obeying all of God's laws, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and do a better job of obeying God's Law more consistently by not showing favoritism.

You are confusing the Ten Commandments (now abolished) with the Two Great Commandments that believers of all time lived by. And also live by today in the New Covenant.

Jesus was not asked about which of the commands should be followed, but about what the greatest command was. All of the 613 laws of the OT and 1,050 laws of the NT can be put into one of both of the categories of being about how to love God and our neighbor, so the greatest two commands don't replace the other commands, but rather they are the essence of the other commands.

They did not. They tried to kill Paul for teaching against it.

"Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:16)

If you look at Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is ambiguous as to when Paul was saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them, but it we look at the context of the views of the people judging them and keep in mind the theme that we must obey God rather than man, then it becomes clear:

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would never have described those who were teaching obedience to the holy, righteous, and good commands of God in accordance with the example that Christ set for his followers as taking people captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition and not according to Christ. He went into more details about what these elemental spirits of the world are later in the chapter:

Colossians 2:20-23 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

So the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to His commands and in accordance with the example Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by those teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was writing to encourage them not to let any man judge them keep them from obeying God.

““Therefore I conclude that we should not cause extra difficulty for those among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood.” (Acts 15:19–20)

Why no Sabbath?

When a employer hires a new employee, they don't want to make it too difficult for them by making them memorize everything that they will ever need to know about how to do their job up front, but rather they start with the basics with the understanding that they will learn how to do the rest on the job. Acts 15:19-21 expresses this same line of thought where they didn't want to make things too difficult for new believers coming to faith by making them memorize a long list of laws up front, but rather they started with the basics, which they excused by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues, which implies that they were already keeping the Sabbath in obedience to God's command in accordance with what Jesus taught by word and by example.

 

[Soyeong]

So if it didn’t pass away, then nothing is overridden.What you quoted wasn’t a law. Sabbath was law, to stone for that was law. The OT law also mandated people to follow through on the punishments.

If you’re defending to keep the OT law of Sabbath, don’t cut and paste. You know that Sabbath had a punishment attached to it to those who didn’t abide. Lol don’t disneyfy the Most High God.

Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, so it would not be judge to enforce a penalty that has already been paid. However the fact that God considers breaking the Sabbath to be worthy of the death penalty and the fact that Jesus gave himself to pay that penalty should make you want to go and sin no more.

 

[Soyeong]

In the New Testament it is not a sin to break shabbat. Hebrews 7:12, Colossians 2:16-17.

If the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness changed when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but God's righteousness and all of His righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:142, 160), so Hebrews 7:12 is not speaking about a change in the content of God's unchanging laws. Rather, rather in context it is speaking about a transition of the priesthood, which would also require there to be a transition of the Law to go along with it in regard to its administration.

If you look at Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is ambiguous as to when Paul was saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them, but it we look at the context of the views of the people judging them and keep in mind the theme that we must obey God rather than man, then it becomes clear:

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would never have described those who were teaching obedience to the holy, righteous, and good commands of God in accordance with the example that Christ set for his followers as taking people captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition and not according to Christ. He went into more details about what these elemental spirits of the world are later in the chapter:

Colossians 2:20-23 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

So the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to His commands and in accordance with the example Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by those teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was writing to encourage them not to let any man judge them keep them from obeying God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Luke 11:41, But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and behold, all things are clean to you.

Romans 14:14, I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

1 Timothy 4:1-6, Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy: having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

 

[justbyfaith]

Romans 14:6, One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord: and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks, and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 

[Soyeong]

Luke 11:41, But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and behold, all things are clean to you.

Romans 14:14, I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

1 Timothy 4:1-6, Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy: having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

The fact that 1 Timothy 4:1 describes what he was speaking about as the doctrines of demons should be a major clue that he was not speaking about the holy, righteous, and good commands of God. Everything in verses 1-8 is clearly describing pagan practices with the possible exception of teaching to abstain from eating certain meats. However, in Colossians 2:20-23, Paul interacted with people who were teaching human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body. In other words, they were teaching abstinence from certain meats that God said were good to eat in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. God's Law is truth (Psalms 119:142), so those who believe and know the truth know that we are permitted to eat those things and that they should be received with thanksgiving. We also know that God's Word has not sanctified unclean animals and that we should not receive with thanksgiving that which God was was an abomination for us. So every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused IF it is something that is to be received with thanksgiving that has been sanctified by God's Word.

The topic of Romans 14 is stated in the first verse, namely it is in regard to how to handle disputable matters of opinion, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow His commands, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as speaking against obeying God. In verse 5-6, Paul spoke about those who were eating or refraining from eating unto the Lord, so he was speaking about fasting. The only day that God commanded fasting is on the Day of Atonement, but in the 1st century it had become a common practice to fast twice a week or to commemorate certain events (Luke 18:12). Those who esteemed certain days for fasting were passing judgement on those who did not and were in turn being resented and this was exactly the sort of judging each other over opinions that Paul was seeking to quelle in this chapter. So whether someone fasts twice a week is a disputable matter of opinion, but whether someone chooses to fast on the Day of Atonement is a matter of obedience to God. Paul was not suggesting that obedience to God is optional as long as we become convinced in our own minds that it is ok to do, but rather he instructed us in Galatians 6:1-4 to gently restore those who are caught in sin.

I believe that Paul never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's commands, but the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so when God has commanded something and you think that Paul said that we don't need to obey what God commanded, then you should be quicker to disregard what he said than to disregard what God commanded. No one had a greater authority than God, so no one has the authority to countermand Him or to tell us not to obey any of His commands, nor should we listen to anyone who tries to tell us that.

 

[Dave L]

In James 2:1-10, he was not trying to warn them away from obeying all of God's laws, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and do a better job of obeying God's Law more consistently by not showing favoritism.



Jesus was not asked about which of the commands should be followed, but about what the greatest command was. All of the 613 laws of the OT and 1,050 laws of the NT can be put into one of both of the categories of being about how to love God and our neighbor, so the greatest two commands don't replace the other commands, but rather they are the essence of the other commands.



If you look at Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is ambiguous as to when Paul was saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them, but it we look at the context of the views of the people judging them and keep in mind the theme that we must obey God rather than man, then it becomes clear:

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would never have described those who were teaching obedience to the holy, righteous, and good commands of God in accordance with the example that Christ set for his followers as taking people captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition and not according to Christ. He went into more details about what these elemental spirits of the world are later in the chapter:

Colossians 2:20-23 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

So the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to His commands and in accordance with the example Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by those teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was writing to encourage them not to let any man judge them keep them from obeying God.



When a employer hires a new employee, they don't want to make it too difficult for them by making them memorize everything that they will ever need to know about how to do their job up front, but rather they start with the basics with the understanding that they will learn how to do the rest on the job. Acts 15:19-21 expresses this same line of thought where they didn't want to make things too difficult for new believers coming to faith by making them memorize a long list of laws up front, but rather they started with the basics, which they excused by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues, which implies that they were already keeping the Sabbath in obedience to God's command in accordance with what Jesus taught by word and by example.

If you keep the Sabbath, you cannot heat your house in the dead of winter on Saturday.