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The terminal decline of Christianity in New Zealand

Discussion in 'Australian & New Zealand' started by Sectio Aurea, Jan 11, 2014.

  1. Sectio Aurea

    Sectio Aurea Guest

    +0

    Then you obviously know my claim is correct.

    Dissecting post 51 will not produce a contemporary historical document. So I'm not going to waste my time.


    John, I have spent many years evaluating the historical evidence, it seem it is you who is ignorant of the facts. If the evidence that I requested existed, I wouldn't need to request it, and you wouldn't be skeptical of my request. I will show you some appreciation when you admit my claim is correct.

    John, you are projecting your own behaviour on to me here. I asked you for evidence which you have failed to supply despite making claims you have supplied it. Do you really consider that a genuine debate?



    John, the facts stand-

    There are no contemporary historical documents for Jesus.

    Don't go making claims that such documents exist if you can not produce evidence of such documents.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2014
  2. Sectio Aurea

    Sectio Aurea Guest

    +0
    You accused me of ignoring John's so called evidence.

    I rejected it as it did not provide evidence for contemporary records.

    I just want you to understand and acknowledge the information he provided failed to provide anything contemporary and for the two of you to accept that any contemporary record is absent.

    Thats all.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2014
  3. Sectio Aurea

    Sectio Aurea Guest

    +0
    I will ask you again...

    Is it even possible for you to choose that?
     
  4. Johnnz

    Johnnz Senior Veteran Supporter

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    See above

    John
    NZ
     
  5. Sectio Aurea

    Sectio Aurea Guest

    +0
    Because most biblical scholars don't accept the Gospels as having contemporary authorship.

    First of all, show me where I claimed N T Wright has got at all wrong?

    Any materials contrary to what most biblical scholars believe, will also be contrary to what I believe, so please excuse my skepticism.

    I'm not disputing the existence of Jesus here...

    I'm disputing the existence of contemporary historical documents for Jesus.
     
  6. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

    +2,127
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    Of course it is possible,your stance is evidence to me.

    And my question ,what do you wish to achieve - is in relation to you gaining the writings you want or not gaining them. What do you you want to achieve ?
    Niether would or could disprove God.
    He is there for those who do believe and for those who refuse to ,he is not there.
    That is to say ,he is life.believe in him and you continue in life increasingly.refuse to and only an end to all that is life awaits.

    Of course you know this.
     
  7. Johnnz

    Johnnz Senior Veteran Supporter

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    No contemporary documents for Socrates - so do we discount his thinking? If Jesus did exist who was he and on what do you base your assessment of Him?

    John
    NZ
     
  8. Sectio Aurea

    Sectio Aurea Guest

    +0
    OK, most biblical scholars agree Jesus existed between 746AUC (7BC) and 789AUC (36 CE).

    Also, most biblical scholars agree the four gospels were written many decades after this period.

    Starting with Mark in aprox 818-822 AUC (66–70 CE)

    This obviously rules the gospels out as being contemporary.

    Not entirely.

    No contemporary documents for Socrates?? Who says?

    If Jesus did exist (which I personally believe is plausible) he was a man of great moral teaching's, however, I reject his divinity, miracles and any other supernatural events attributed to him.
     
  9. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

    +2,127
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    You choose to believe yourself and choose to refuse God.
     
  10. Sectio Aurea

    Sectio Aurea Guest

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    I choose to believe truth, Im sorry I mistook you for a person willing to engage in honest discourse.
     
  11. Johnnz

    Johnnz Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It is commonly accepted by scholars that the synoptic gospels were derived from earlier documents. They, and any underlying sources were also in circulation amongst eyewitnesses of Jesus who had their own memories and sources to judge them against. The Gospels are standard historical documents according to any non biblical criteria.

    Hence your conclusions about Jesus simply ignore the historical records as you bring your post-Enlightenment worldview screen into your analysis. That was the framework that debunked the entire bible by the mid 18th Century, but as stated previously, it failed under the accumulating evidence of secular studies in archaeology and ancient history.

    John
    NZ
     
  12. Johnnz

    Johnnz Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It is commonly accepted by scholars that the synoptic gospels were derived from earlier documents. They, and any underlying sources were also in circulation amongst eyewitnesses of Jesus who had their own memories and sources to judge them against. The Gospels are standard historical documents according to any non biblical criteria.

    Hence your conclusions about Jesus simply ignore the historical records as you bring your post-Enlightenment worldview screen into your analysis. That was the framework that debunked the entire bible by the mid 18th Century, but as stated previously, it failed under the accumulating evidence of secular studies in archaeology and ancient history.

    John
    NZ
     
  13. Sectio Aurea

    Sectio Aurea Guest

    +0
    There are no contemporary historical documents for Jesus.

    A fact that most biblical scholars agree with.

    Are you going to acknowledge this fact, debunk it with evidence or just continue denying it?
     
  14. mathclub

    mathclub Newbie

    597
    +6
    Atheist
    So override a survey showing stats for an entire country with one anecdote? Sounds like just the sort of fuzzy thinking that leads one to religion
     
  15. mathclub

    mathclub Newbie

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    One obvious test is does it fit with what we know and can prove is true about the world around us and how it works? Does it mesh with reality?

    If we found a document from 100 years ago that meshed with everything we know about that era in which a man claimed to have a pet dog then we'd prob be happy to accept that as true.

    If we found an identical document that claimed a pet dragon, we would not accept that claim and would also have good reason to doubt any other claims that we couldn't independently verify.

    There's a few too many talking snakes, global floods and 900 year old men for rational adults to accept the claims of the bible in 2014.
     
  16. mathclub

    mathclub Newbie

    597
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    Atheist
    Can you choose to believe that you can walk on air? You can easily demonstrate this 'choice' for us by walking from the roof of your house to another as calmly as I'd walk over a bridge.

    Please post the video of the above?
     
  17. mathclub

    mathclub Newbie

    597
    +6
    Atheist
    I don't care if Socrates actually existed. If he did not then someone still has those brilliant thoughts and communicated them down through the ages.

    Likewise with jesus and his teachings.

    Even if a man called jesus existed you'd still have to prove the virgin birth, walking on water, rising from the dead and all those other supernatural claims. Can you?
     
  18. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
    ...
    6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."


    (Hebrews chapter 11.)


    The onus is thus on you to note that you have come to a faith based environment, and that no one here owes it to anyone to try to prove the Bible.


    The Bible is a given, and with respect I would prefer not to enter into a debate.
     
  19. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    By 'decline' I suppose the OP refers to 'institutional religion'.

    The fact remains that 2 or 3 believers in the Lord Jesus and in the power of His resurrection, meeting in His Name anywhere in the world for prayer and Scripture reading, form a majority with God.
     
  20. Johnnz

    Johnnz Senior Veteran Supporter

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    That's not quite to black and white question you think it is.

    a) No contemporary documents. This can mean either there never were any or we don't have any. If the first, that is supposition or argument from silence. If the second then that leads to:

    b) From what we know from accepted standards for evaluating historical data can we take the Gospel accounts as reliable records of the life and teaching of Jesus? My answer is "Yes we can".

    John
    NZ
     
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