The Ten vs the 603

[Divide]

It sounds reasonable to me, but we have some wonderful Christian brothers and sisters who want to keep at least some parts of the law. So we have this section CF where we can hopefully have edifying discussions about it!

Good enough. But it's all over the NT that we are not under the law anymore. That doesn't mean that we are free to break the 10 commandments for He said, be ye Holy even as I am Holy, so that would be lacking in class, lol.

 

[Gary K]

Exactly. Now we live in the dispensation of grace age. But before Jesus came they were undel the dispensation of law. Jesus said, I have new and better covenant with you now, and we entered the age of grace. The new covenant is the new wine and the old wine is the law.

Then why was the new covenant given through Jeremiah, a Jew, and it was given to write the law in our hearts.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:*n7
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The words don't change meaning over time nd obviously the new covenant's purpose was to teach the people to know God.

Jesus said that life eternal was in knowing the Father and the Son.

John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[Leaf473]

I thought this was more of the Leprosy bit.

Why wouldn't unclean food make the cooking apparatus unclean when they fall on it. It's more of the same.

Well, it seems reasonable... Is that a Yes? This is a dietary law?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 11:35 - New American Standard Bible

Moreover, everything on which part of their carcass may fall becomes unclean; an oven or a stove shall be smashed; they are unclean and shall continue as unclean to you.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Good enough. But it's all over the NT that we are not under the law anymore. That doesn't mean that we are free to break the 10 commandments for He said, be ye Holy even as I am Holy, so that would be lacking in class, lol.

Any other Commandments not in the 10 that would relate to being holy?

 

[Gary K]

Well, it seems reasonable... Is that a Yes? This is a dietary law?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 11:35 - New American Standard Bible

Moreover, everything on which part of their carcass may fall becomes unclean; an oven or a stove shall be smashed; they are unclean and shall continue as unclean to you.

www.biblegateway.com

Yes.

 

[Leaf473]

Exactly. Now we live in the dispensation of grace age. But before Jesus came they were undel the dispensation of law. Jesus said, I have new and better covenant with you now, and we entered the age of grace. The new covenant is the new wine and the old wine is the law.

Saw this again, and it's interesting twist came to mind that's in the Luke account. Maybe it's why people sometimes want to be under some parts of the law?

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 5:39 - New American Standard Bible

And no one, after drinking old wine wants new; for he says, ‘The old is fine.’”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Yes.

Thanks And then as it relates to this post

Other than the 10 commandments, only the dietary laws as those directly affect our health and thus our spiritual understanding.

does this next passage, which is about leprosy, contain a dietary law? It does talk about the lip.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 13:45 - Lexham English Bible

“As for the person who is afflicted with a skin disease, his garments must be torn and his hair must be allowed to hang loosely, and he must cover his upper lip, and he must call out, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Saw this again, and it's interesting twist came to mind that's in the Luke account. Maybe it's why people sometimes want to be under some parts of the law?

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 5:39 - New American Standard Bible

And no one, after drinking old wine wants new; for he says, ‘The old is fine.’”

www.biblegateway.com

I don't think so. God gives the power to overcome sin through knowing Jesus. A successful Christian life is far more joyful than falling and failing. A person isn't "under the law" until they break it.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't think so. God gives the power to overcome sin through knowing Jesus. A successful Christian life is far more joyful than falling and failing. A person isn't "under the law" until they break it.

Well, we disagree about what it means to be "under the law".

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:4 - New American Standard Bible

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus never sinned, yet he was under the law.

Also,

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:21 - New American Standard Bible

Slave and Free - Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the Law?

www.biblegateway.com

Are those people who want to sin? That seems very strange. I think Paul is talking to people who just have a misunderstanding of how the law works, so they want to be under it.

 

[Gary K]

Well, we disagree about what it means to be "under the law".

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:4 - New American Standard Bible

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus never sinned, yet he was under the law.

Also,

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:21 - New American Standard Bible

Slave and Free - Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the Law?

www.biblegateway.com

Are those people who want to sin? That seems very strange. I think Paul is talking to people who just have a misunderstanding of how the law works, so they want to be under it.

Paul was speaking to being under Pharisaical law of which I have given you many examples.

Galatians 1: 14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

 

[Leaf473]

Paul was speaking to being under Pharisaical law of which I have given you many examples.

Galatians 1: 14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Well, I disagree that Jesus was born under the pharisaical law, because it also says he came to redeem those who are under the law. I don't think that means he came to redeem those under the phariseical law.

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:5 - New American Standard Bible

so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons and daughters.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees

Well, I disagree that Jesus was born under the pharisaical law, because it also says he came to redeem those who are under the law. I don't think that means he came to redeem those under the phariseical law.

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:5 - New American Standard Bible

so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons and daughters.

www.biblegateway.com

Yeah,you're tight He was. But He had to be born under the law so He could save us. He, who knew no sin was made sin for us. Therefore He was born "under the law", He is our example of what faith allows us to do..

 

[Leaf473]

Yeah,you're tight He was. But He had to be born under the law so He could save us. He, who knew no sin was made sin for us. Therefore He was born "under the law", He is our example of what faith allows us to do..

I'm glad we could agree

And... Did you want to follow up on this?

Thanks And then as it relates to this post

does this next passage, which is about leprosy, contain a dietary law? It does talk about the lip.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 13:45 - Lexham English Bible

“As for the person who is afflicted with a skin disease, his garments must be torn and his hair must be allowed to hang loosely, and he must cover his upper lip, and he must call out, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

I'm glad we could agree

And... Did you want to follow up on this?

You mistake my agreement. Jesus was born "under the law" so He could pay the penalty for our sins/ In other words under the condemnation of the law. For cursed is he who hangs on a tree.

A good analogy is getting pulled over for speeding. As long as we don't drive faster than the speed limit we won't come "under the law". If the cop doesn't write us a ticket and lets us go does that mean we are now free to break any traffic law we choose?

 

[Divide]

You mistake my agreement. Jesus was born "under the law" so He could pay the penalty for our sins/ In other words under the condemnation of the law. For cursed is he who hangs on a tree.

A good analogy is getting pulled over for speeding. As long as we don't drive faster than the speed limit we won't come "under the law". If the cop doesn't write us a ticket and lets us go does that mean we are now free to break any traffic law we choose?

Jesus might have been born before the age of grace and therefore under the law. He wasnt born under the condemnation of the law because He was born without the adamic nature.

Another good analogy is, it's not illegal until you get caught!

 

[Gary K]

Jesus might have been born before the age of grace and therefore under the law. He wasnt born under the condemnation of the law because He was born without the adamic nature.

Another good analogy is, it's not illegal until you get caught!

What makes you think you and I are not subject to the law of God? God's law is still in effect. It hasn't been done away with. Is it still wrong to murder, lie, steal, covet, etc...?

Romans 7: 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Romans 4: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

There is that word grace again. It's by faith through the influence and power of the HS that Jew and Gentile become able to keep the law. It was that way with Abraham and it is the same with us.

 

[Leaf473]

You mistake my agreement. Jesus was born "under the law" so He could pay the penalty for our sins/ In other words under the condemnation of the law. For cursed is he who hangs on a tree.

I read it differently. Jesus was born under the law, meaning he had to keep the law. And he did keep it, without fault. Therefore he could redeem those who were also under the law but ended up breaking it.

A good analogy is getting pulled over for speeding. As long as we don't drive faster than the speed limit we won't come "under the law".

I don't think that's a good analogy. We are under the speed limit laws whether we speed or not.

If the cop doesn't write us a ticket and lets us go does that mean we are now free to break any traffic law we choose?

No. But again, I don't think the analogy fits.

Maybe one of these translations will help

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:4 - New International Reader's Version

But then the chosen time came. God sent his Son. A woman gave birth to him. He was born under the authority of the law.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:4 - New Living Translation

But when the right time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, subject to the law.

www.biblegateway.com

We are subject to the speed limits, we are under the authority of the speed limits, whether we drive fast or slow.

 

[Leaf473]

What makes you think you and I are not subject to the law of God? God's law is still in effect. It hasn't been done away with. Is it still wrong to murder, lie, steal, covet, etc...?

About the "et cetera" part, that's where it gets interesting imo.

I believe we're exploring the idea that it's been narrowed down to the Ten Commandments and "dietary laws". But narrowing down those laws and looking for a scriptural basis for those being the only ones may be difficult

Romans 7: 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Romans 4: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

There is that word grace again. It's by faith through the influence and power of the HS that Jew and Gentile become able to keep the law. It was that way with Abraham and it is the same with us.

 

[Gary K]

About the "et cetera" part, that's where it gets interesting imo.

I believe we're exploring the idea that it's been narrowed down to the Ten Commandments and "dietary laws". But narrowing down those laws and looking for a scriptural basis for those being the only ones may be difficult

I really don't understand the antipathy to the Sabbath. It's right in the middle of the 10 and is the one God tells us to remember. And why would you want to look for loop holes in God's law? It baffles me why someone who says they love God with all their heart, soul, and might would look for ways of disobeying Him. It just doesn't fit ,especially when the Bible talks endlessly about the power of God to change us to make us capable of keeping His law.

I also don't understand this reluctance with all the evidence I've given about the Pharisees and the Talmud.

 

[Gary K]

I read it differently. Jesus was born under the law, meaning he had to keep the law. And he did keep it, without fault. Therefore he could redeem those who were also under the law but ended up breaking it.


I don't think that's a good analogy. We are under the speed limit laws whether we speed or not.


No. But again, I don't think the analogy fits.

Maybe one of these translations will help

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:4 - New International Reader's Version

But then the chosen time came. God sent his Son. A woman gave birth to him. He was born under the authority of the law.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:4 - New Living Translation

But when the right time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, subject to the law.

www.biblegateway.com

We are subject to the speed limits, we are under the authority of the speed limits, whether we drive fast or slow.

And we are under the authority of God's law whether we obey it or not.

Where no law exists there is no transgression.