The Ten Commandments stands for ever.

[Stryder06]

We cannot rid ourselves of sin. That's why we need a Savior. If we could rid ourselves of sin, we wouldn't need a Savior, and Christ died for nothing.

Tis true. I figured that much went without saying, but to clarify, We rid ourselves of sin by allowing the Spirit of God to do His work within us.

Hope that clears up any potential misunderstandings.

 

[Tangible]

If there's one thing I've learned - there are no safe assumptions in GT.

 

[JamesAH]

We cannot rid ourselves of sin. That's why we need a Savior. If we could rid ourselves of sin, we wouldn't need a Savior, and Christ died for nothing.

This is 100% truth and you don't need to belong to a denom to know that

 

[bugkiller]

You will sounds like a promise to me.

In reference to John 14:15 as Irene refered to how is this a promise?

Just curious, very curious indeed.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Not sure how I got caught up in this again

Anywho, to keep it simple keeping the law will not bring salvation because at some point in time you will sin. That single sin is enough to keep you out of heaven. We need Christ. Being obedient to the law will bring about a change in you. This change however can only occur if you allow the Holy Spirit to work that change in you. One can "keep the law" but not have the love of Christ in their life.

Man has been completely spoiled by sin. We're damaged goods if you will. Christ has purchased us back, but to conform us to His glorious image, He needs to apply some "tough love". We have to rid ourselves of sin, but to do that you have to know what sin is. The law reveals sin. Now we walk in the Spirit who will guide us in truth and righteousness, steering us away from sin, and should we fall (because we will) we have an advocate with the Father.

Does that help any?

Where do you get we have to rid ourselves of sin. I thought that is what Jesus did for us. We are redeemed from sin -
that is sin no longer has is in its grip. I have been declared righteous.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I'm not saying any of that. I'm just as much a grace pusher as you are. The constant misapplication of what I'm saying and subsequent responses to said misapplied statements is the reason why I stopped speaking here in the first place...

Grace never trumped the law and the law never trumped grace. Everything about God is about harmony. This includes His law and His grace and His mercy and His love. One aspect of His character isn't more or less effective than the other.

Try to think of it like this, Law, Grace, Mercy, Kindness, Love, Patience, etc, are all attributes of the character of God. They work in harmony together. Unlink us, where we tend to be unbalanced and nurture certain aspects of our character over others (usually the parts that are bad) God is completely straight across the board. He gave us His law to show us that Holy aspect of His character which requires order. He gave us His grace to reveal to us that aspect of His character which is willing to provide something for the unworthy. He gave us His love so we'd see that aspect of His character which will go to any length to save us! He is a wonderful and awesome God! By beholding Him we become changed. By beholding His law we see how disorderly our lives are, by learning of His grace we learn of how unworthy we are to receive it. We don't need to discard one for the other, we need them both.

The definition that sticks out in my mind about grace is unmerrited favor. Where does the law provide such? Law by itself limits and grants no grace - only condemnation and guilt. Some thing or one always dies by the law. I think you and I agree that grace exist apart from the law of Moses. I think if you follow or are led the Spirit you do not perform the lust of the flesh - sin. This is not following a codified law. It is also not the same as the law of Moses. Jere 31 and Heb 8 both say so.

bugkiller

 

[IreneAdler]

So if I don't keep My commandments (really implied the ten) I hate God is what you seem to be syaing to me. You will sounds like a requirement to me. Yes we have a difference of opinion because of John 15:10. If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. You read: If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My commandments, and abide in My love. I understand your problem with the trinity. I am approaching you on sentence structure alone. Please open the secret code.

I contend that My and My Father's are two different things. The word my implies ownership. We know that Jesus kept the ten commandments. So if you would identify these items for us numbsckulls it would be much appreaciated.

bugkiller

no, I'm saying that when you're in close relationship with someone you do things that are pleasing without being told to or asked. That does not somehow imply that if you don't that you hate them, just that you're not in close connection with them. That's all. You're far too literal sometimes buggy.

 

[IreneAdler]

In reference to John 14:15 as Irene refered to how is this a promise?

Just curious, very curious indeed.

bugkiller

because it's a statement of fact... not sure how this is not computing

 

[Stryder06]

The definition that sticks out in my mind about grace is unmerrited favor. Where does the law provide such? Law by itself limits and grants no grace - only condemnation and guilt. Some thing or one always dies by the law. I think you and I agree that grace exist apart from the law of Moses. I think if you follow or are led the Spirit you do not perform the lust of the flesh - sin. This is not following a codified law. It is also not the same as the law of Moses. Jere 31 and Heb 8 both say so.

bugkiller

I think you missed my emphasis on harmony. Grace is indeed unmerited favor. Why do we need unmerited favor though? Because we are all lawbreakers. If you think of it like this "Sinner" is just another word for lawbreaker. One of the definitions for sin (hamartia) is "to wander from the law of God, violate God's law"

The law only brings death because we stand in violation of the law. But because of His favor, his undying love, He pardons our sins because of Christ who shed His blood on our behalf.

I too agree that if you follow the Spirit you won't sin. I however know that we all sin, but we all are not fallen into sin. We all make mistakes and do something we ought not do, we all however do not wallow in it and enjoy it but rather run to God and ask for His forgiveness and strength to not do it again. Therefore you can walk in the Spirit, and even though you may fall from time to time, because your sight is on God you aren't counted as a sinner.

 

[Tangible]

You will sounds like a promise to me.

In reference to John 14:15 as Irene referred to how is this a promise?

Just curious, very curious indeed.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

I know for a fact that I can't keep the commandments. I can't even consistently love Jesus. I'm a sinner to the core. That's why I need a Savior.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

However, I do have a Helper who dwells in me and who is leading me into all righteousness. Some day, in my resurrected body, I will be able to perfectly keep God's law, but in this body of sin, even as I strive toward the goal, I cannot possibly keep it.

Romans 7:21-25 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[Yab Yum]

It's becoming more obvious to me every day that so many of these incorrect doctrines would vanish in a heartbeat if only those who subscribe to them could understand the proper distinction between justification and sanctification.

For the unjustified, the law functions to illuminate and condemn their sinfulness and to proclaim their need for a savior to be justified. (And also to provide knowledge of right and wrong for all our various relationships in society - justified and unjustified alike.)

For the justified, however, the law sanctifies us and teaches us how to be sanctified. Sanctification necessarily follows justification, but no one is ever sanctified without first having been justified.

We do not and cannot participate in our justification, though we can and do participate in our sanctification. We are justified always and only by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, completely apart from any supposed merit or worthiness on our part. Any attempt to add works as a necessary requirement for justification is sinful works-righteousness.

The justified are sanctified by God through their many and varied vocations. While there are certainly activities such as vices and crimes which hinder our sanctification if we participate in them, any activity we do which benefits others is in reality sanctifying for us as God works through our hands and speaks through our voices to provide for others their daily bread - that which is necessary and good in life.

There is no difference in value to God between pious activities like prayer, teaching Sunday school or singing in the church choir and mundane, everyday activities like mending a fence, delivering mail or changing a diaper. God is at work in all these activities expressing his love and providing the needs of people, not merely in the context of the community of believers, but the world over.

Bear in mind that those who are saved - the sheep in the parable - are not aware of the good works they have done which characterize them as those who have done the will of God. "When did we do these things?" God has done all these things through them because they have been justified - even when they weren't aware of it. God does the work and they get the credit.

Those who are not saved - the goats - are also the hands of God. God is even hidden in the good works that they do. When they are condemned by the Righteous Judge, hey hold up all the good works they've done and ask him "When did we not do these things?" However, since they are not justified, none of these good works can do anything to obtain for them salvation.

Do the justified but unsanctified get to heaven? If so, what is sanctification for? If not, what's the difference between sanctification and justification other than one half is what we need to do, the other half is what Christ does?

 

[Tangible]

The justified receive eternal life in Christ, and for the sake of Christ we are declared completely righteous and holy before God. It's a done deal.

Sanctification is a little more tricky. In Christ we are already completely sanctified, in the same way that we are hidden with Christ in God. In our flesh, though, we are in a process of being sanctified by the HS as he conforms us to the image of Christ. At resurrection, our glorified bodies are completely sanctified.

 

[IreneAdler]

and if you're not sanctified?

 

[Tangible]

and if you're not sanctified?

Not quite sure what you mean.

If you are justified, then you are/are being/will be sanctified. Some are farther along than others, but it's not a competition. All will be totally sanctified in the end (or is it the just beginning? )

 

[IreneAdler]

ok, so what's the point of trying or working toward sanctification if all will be eventually (think of this as an intelelctual pursuit on my part, not hounding, cause it's not)

 

[Tangible]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are justified by faith, not by works. But why are we justified? For good works. We are sanctified by good works.

Now, don't make me pull out my buddy James.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are justified by faith, not by works. But why are we justified? For good works. We are sanctified by good works.

Now, don't make me pull out my buddy James.

Do It!!! Do IT!!!

James.........James...........JAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[IreneAdler]

but you didnt' say what the point was of sanctification by works if everyone is gettin there... (it's kind of like working in a wellfare state, what's the point)

I'm not arguing, just trying to see why you should do something other than because of pure love and only motivated by love when there's really no benefit to it tangibly (which is what human beings are all about - and even salvation is alluring that way)

 

[JamesAH]

Do It!!! Do IT!!!

James.........James...........JAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What?

 

[Tangible]

but you didnt' say what the point was of sanctification by works if everyone is gettin there... (it's kind of like working in a wellfare state, what's the point)

I'm not arguing, just trying to see why you should do something other than because of pure love and only motivated by love when there's really no benefit to it tangibly (which is what human beings are all about - and even salvation is alluring that way)

I see now. Yeah, kinda 'what's in it for me?' That's Old Man thinking.

God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor sure does. Through the good works that God does through us, God uses our hands to bless those around us, to provide them daily bread.

We receive credit for these works done through us by God, and in the process become conformed to the image of Christ. We do these things out of thankfulness and gratitude to God for his free gift of salvation.