The Ten Commandments stands for ever.

[HolyGuardianAngels]

1. Sin is the transgression of the law John 3:4. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God Romans 3:23. That all includes all that ever lived and will ever live. It therefore means that the law must always be there to convict of sin, to point out sin, for except the law said thou should not covet how would I have known? Romans 7:7
2. What shall we be judge by except the law? If it is abolished there is no standard for judgment! There can be no Judgment! James 1:25 and 2:12
3. What did Jesus die for except for sinners who broke the law? If the law could have been abolished by God there would have been no need for Jesus to die. Remove the law and there would be no transgression, no sin. Jesus died so why remove the law? Jesus knowing what would come to pass stated before that not one dot of an “I” or the crossing of a “t” would pass from the law Matt. 5:17-18. Do you believe Jesus?
4. If the law was abolish by the disciples, why was the last of them John, still keeping the Sabbath?

The Commandments will last forever.

 

[JamesAH]

The Commandments won't be needed when Christ lays his Kingdom down because sin will not exist.

The Commandments were needed because of the sin nature of man.

 

[Frogster]

I've been keeping my distance for the sake of my blood pressure

Anywho, to say grace took over doesn't make sense. Why wait so long? Grace was at work in Eden, with Noah, during the time of Abraham, through the age of the kings the prophets.

well sure,,there was always God,who is graceful.but why did the prophets know,more ,or better was coming?

1 peter 1;10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories

After Moses.the bible gives a timeline.And when the fulness came.After the law

John 1;16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Good to see u.

 

[Frogster]

I don't know Froggy - these verses seem pretty categorical and black and white regardless of which chapter of Romans they appear.

Rom 2:12 for whoever sinned without the law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.
Rom 2:13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Rom 2:6 Who will be paying each one in accord with his acts:
Rom 2:7 to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian;
Rom 2:8 yet to those of faction and stubborn, indeed, as to the truth, yet persuaded to injustice, indignation and fury,
Rom 2:9 affliction and distress, on every human soul which is effecting evil, both of the Jew first and of the Greek,
Rom 2:10 yet glory and honor and peace to every worker of good, both to the Jew first, and to the Greek.
Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God,

Plus 6-11 appears to support judgment according to works. Now if you are a grace person this is not necessarily troublesome.

ESV Study bible footnote: Paul establishes the principle that judgment is according to . . . works. The structure of the passage is clear. Verse 6 enunciates the principle. Verses 7–10 work it out more specifically with an ABBA pattern (a chiasm). Verse 11 then explains why God judges according to works (because he is impartial). When Paul speaks of those who are rewarded for doing good works (vv. 7, 10), is he speaking hypothetically or of real obedience? The hypothetical view fits with the theme of the section as a whole (1:18–3:20), where all are condemned for sin, and righteousness does not come by works of law. It seems more likely, however, that Paul is speaking here of real obedience that is rewarded on the last day—such obedience being the result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, as Paul explains at the conclusion of the chapter (2:26–29). Impartiality in judgment (v. 11) is a regular requirement in the OT (see Deut. 1:17; 16:18–20), reflecting the righteousness of God's judgment (Deut. 10:17).

Rom 2:26 If the Uncircumcision, then, should be maintaining the just requirements of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And the Uncircumcision who, by nature, are discharging the law’s demands, shall be judging you, who through letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of law.
Rom 2:28 For not that which is apparent is the Jew, nor yet that which is apparent in flesh is circumcision;
Rom 2:29 but that which is hidden is the Jew, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, whose applause is not of men, but of God.

Hi yab.
Well..really those first 3 chapters all have a theme.Pagans with the law Rom 2;14-15,or Jews who have the law are not justified by either system.


Read the previous verses.Paul is clear,they (jewish people)were not even keeping the law,they were adulterers,temple robbers etc.

So he was really just saying in 2:29,that they were not true,because their hearts were also sinful,uncircumcised.

As far as judged by works,keep in mind again,the theme of the 3 chapters.

So yea,evil ones,who do evil works,are in trouble,bud God's people who do good works,are blessed.

But to omit all Paul said,about being justified by faith,and not works,because of that passage,really wouldn't jive with all the rest of his writings.

Check out 2:26.All he is really doing again,is showing hypocrisy.Even a gentile could judge a lawkeeper.And that hypocrisy was there.Look at the tone,and context of 23.

Rom 2:23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

Again,this verse(below) shows context of the chapters,which culminate in the fact that all,,Jews with the law,gentiles with a universal right from wrong,are all sinners,even in their own systems.And none are justifed by law/works.


All judged by the law,Jew,and the whole world,gentiles too.And none justified by the law.

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being [3] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

In short,we know the pagans judged,rom 2:1-3.We know the Jews judged,and all were sinners,unjustified by law,and all hypocrites.So sure,Paul chucks out a perfect standard,and says..2:13

It is not hearers of the law(every saturday in the synagogues),but doers of the law,are just.But he also knew they were not doing it.

God bless.

 

[Frogster]

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

Only Jesus Christ was able to keep the law. Because of HIS righteousness before the law we are saved by grace through faith.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Romans1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Amen! He said works of the law 3 times in one verse! He must have meant it.

Gal 2;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

 

[Stryder06]

well sure,,there was always God,who is graceful.but why did the prophets know,more ,or better was coming?

Saying "well sure" like that makes it seem like you're belittling the grace which God showed His people during the OT times.

1 peter 1;10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories

Not sure what you're driving at. Peter is saying that as the prophets studied their prophecies, they learned that the time they were speaking of wasn't for them, but for the benefit of others. Essentially the prophets were looking to see when the Christ would come.

After Moses.the bible gives a timeline.And when the fulness came.After the law

John 1;16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Good to see u.

Still not sure what you're getting at. The first prophecy given was to Adam and Eve. Grace has always been in place. Moses' work was for a time and purpose, it was through him that God gave His law to His people. Christ however came, embodying the law, and revealing the Father to us, something that Moses could never do. Christ by His death fulfilled all those things spoken of about Him and as such consecrated (for lack of a better word) the grace that had been promised from the beginning.

 

[Frogster]

Saying "well sure" like that makes it seem like you're belittling the grace which God showed His people during the OT times.


Not sure what you're driving at. Peter is saying that as the prophets studied their prophecies, they learned that the time they were speaking of wasn't for them, but for the benefit of others. Essentially the prophets were looking to see when the Christ would come.



Still not sure what you're getting at. The first prophecy given was to Adam and Eve. Grace has always been in place. Moses' work was for a time and purpose, it was through him that God gave His law to His people. Christ however came, embodying the law, and revealing the Father to us, something that Moses could never do. Christ by His death fulfilled all those things spoken of about Him and as such consecrated (for lack of a better word) the grace that had been promised from the beginning.

Well sure..to put it simple.The reign of law ended,and grace began.Sin,law,death and bondage were in Adam.Now we are in grace.A sphere.

Rom 5;21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

One over,one took over rover..


Rom 6;14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

alrighty then.

 

[Stryder06]

Well sure..to put it simple.The reign of law ended,and grace began.Sin,law,death and bondage were in Adam.Now we are in grace.A sphere.

Rom 5;21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

One over,one took over rover..


Rom 6;14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

alrighty then.

You still seem to be missing the point. Either grace has always been at work, or people at some point in time were justified and saved by their own works. Tell me, how do you define grace? Let's try to focus on that for a while.

 

[Yekcidmij]

For those obsessed with what day of the week to rest/worship, I still have yet to see any of them actually observe the appropriate day. Assuming that our Saturday is THE 7th day is incorrect. God didn't issue Moses a Gregorian Calendar. There are several calendars in the Hebrew Bible, the most prominant 2 being a lunar calendar and a solar calendar. If you were to use a lunar (actually a luni-solar) calendar as Jews did in the Second Temple period you would base the beginning of the month on the first sighting of the moon after the New Moon and you would begin the New Year on the first day of the week, unless you were an Essene in which case your New Year began on the 4th day of the week. If you were to say that 1 Nisan is the New Year (and the Rabbi's mention at least 4 possible new year days with 1 Nisan and 1 Tishri being the most prominent in the bible) then it's important to note that the New Year began on what would be 16 (or 17) March on our calendar meaning that today (23 March) is either the First Day of the week or the 7th day of the week depending on when that first sliver of the moon was sighted after the New Moon on 15 March.

The biblical ways of calculating days were done by observation of the moon and sun, not by mathematical precise methods (there is no 365.25 day calendar in the ancient world). I wonder how many people are observing a biblical Sabbath today (23 March)? Probably none. Hypocrites.

 

[IreneAdler]

I find the idea that you MUST keep the law, but it's somehow not to be saved, interesting. lol. Why MUST you if it's not a requirement for salvation? (just thinking out loud)

 

[bbbbbbb]

I find the idea that you MUST keep the law, but it's somehow not to be saved, interesting. lol. Why MUST you if it's not a requirement for salvation? (just thinking out loud)

My question to Stryder, precisely.

 

[IreneAdler]

Not saying it's not good, or okay, or a way to be constantly in memorium or happens because you have that deep connection to Christ by association of just his presence but MUST... ??? Eh, not logical.

 

[bugkiller]

Saying "well sure" like that makes it seem like you're belittling the grace which God showed His people during the OT times.


Not sure what you're driving at. Peter is saying that as the prophets studied their prophecies, they learned that the time they were speaking of wasn't for them, but for the benefit of others. Essentially the prophets were looking to see when the Christ would come.



Still not sure what you're getting at. The first prophecy given was to Adam and Eve. Grace has always been in place. Moses' work was for a time and purpose, it was through him that God gave His law to His people. Christ however came, embodying the law, and revealing the Father to us, something that Moses could never do. Christ by His death fulfilled all those things spoken of about Him and as such consecrated (for lack of a better word) the grace that had been promised from the beginning.

So are you saying the the law provides grace? Or are you saying that grace is in spite of the law, making it void? What purpose then would the law have?

We grace pushers have never said that grace did not exist in the OT, before the law or after it was given. Our problem is that you say we are obligated to the law. The new covenant restores the relationship man had with God in the garden before sin and the law. I did not say it restored the garden.

bugkiller

 

[IreneAdler]

I think it's like this: if you love me you will keep my commandments, not if you keep my commandments you show you love me. Keeping commandments is about being in a relationship with Christ. Anyone who's had a loving relationship with someone knows that you do what you can to make someone happy and sometimes you screw up. That's life. It's about love, not about obligation.

 

[bugkiller]

I think it's like this: if you love me you will keep my commandments, not if you keep my commandments you show you love me. Keeping commandments is about being in a relationship with Christ. Anyone who's had a loving relationship with someone knows that you do what you can to make someone happy and sometimes you screw up. That's life. It's about love, not about obligation.

So if I don't keep My commandments (really implied the ten) I hate God is what you seem to be syaing to me. You will sounds like a requirement to me. Yes we have a difference of opinion because of John 15:10. If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. You read: If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My commandments, and abide in My love. I understand your problem with the trinity. I am approaching you on sentence structure alone. Please open the secret code.

I contend that My and My Father's are two different things. The word my implies ownership. We know that Jesus kept the ten commandments. So if you would identify these items for us numbsckulls it would be much appreaciated.

bugkiller

 

[Tangible]

It's becoming more obvious to me every day that so many of these incorrect doctrines would vanish in a heartbeat if only those who subscribe to them could understand the proper distinction between justification and sanctification.

For the unjustified, the law functions to illuminate and condemn their sinfulness and to proclaim their need for a savior to be justified. (And also to provide knowledge of right and wrong for all our various relationships in society - justified and unjustified alike.)

For the justified, however, the law sanctifies us and teaches us how to be sanctified. Sanctification necessarily follows justification, but no one is ever sanctified without first having been justified.

We do not and cannot participate in our justification, though we can and do participate in our sanctification. We are justified always and only by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, completely apart from any supposed merit or worthiness on our part. Any attempt to add works as a necessary requirement for justification is sinful works-righteousness.

The justified are sanctified by God through their many and varied vocations. While there are certainly activities such as vices and crimes which hinder our sanctification if we participate in them, any activity we do which benefits others is in reality sanctifying for us as God works through our hands and speaks through our voices to provide for others their daily bread - that which is necessary and good in life.

There is no difference in value to God between pious activities like prayer, teaching Sunday school or singing in the church choir and mundane, everyday activities like mending a fence, delivering mail or changing a diaper. God is at work in all these activities expressing his love and providing the needs of people, not merely in the context of the community of believers, but the world over.

Bear in mind that those who are saved - the sheep in the parable - are not aware of the good works they have done which characterize them as those who have done the will of God. "When did we do these things?" God has done all these things through them because they have been justified - even when they weren't aware of it. God does the work and they get the credit.

Those who are not saved - the goats - are also the hands of God. God is even hidden in the good works that they do. When they are condemned by the Righteous Judge, hey hold up all the good works they've done and ask him "When did we not do these things?" However, since they are not justified, none of these good works can do anything to obtain for them salvation.

 

[Tangible]

You will sounds like a requirement to me.

You will sounds like a promise to me.

 

[Stryder06]

I find the idea that you MUST keep the law, but it's somehow not to be saved, interesting. lol. Why MUST you if it's not a requirement for salvation? (just thinking out loud)

My question to Stryder, precisely.

Not sure how I got caught up in this again

Anywho, to keep it simple keeping the law will not bring salvation because at some point in time you will sin. That single sin is enough to keep you out of heaven. We need Christ. Being obedient to the law will bring about a change in you. This change however can only occur if you allow the Holy Spirit to work that change in you. One can "keep the law" but not have the love of Christ in their life.

Man has been completely spoiled by sin. We're damaged goods if you will. Christ has purchased us back, but to conform us to His glorious image, He needs to apply some "tough love". We have to rid ourselves of sin, but to do that you have to know what sin is. The law reveals sin. Now we walk in the Spirit who will guide us in truth and righteousness, steering us away from sin, and should we fall (because we will) we have an advocate with the Father.

Does that help any?

 

[Stryder06]

So are you saying the the law provides grace? Or are you saying that grace is in spite of the law, making it void? What purpose then would the law have?

We grace pushers have never said that grace did not exist in the OT, before the law or after it was given. Our problem is that you say we are obligated to the law. The new covenant restores the relationship man had with God in the garden before sin and the law. I did not say it restored the garden.

bugkiller

I'm not saying any of that. I'm just as much a grace pusher as you are. The constant misapplication of what I'm saying and subsequent responses to said misapplied statements is the reason why I stopped speaking here in the first place...

Grace never trumped the law and the law never trumped grace. Everything about God is about harmony. This includes His law and His grace and His mercy and His love. One aspect of His character isn't more or less effective than the other.

Try to think of it like this, Law, Grace, Mercy, Kindness, Love, Patience, etc, are all attributes of the character of God. They work in harmony together. Unlink us, where we tend to be unbalanced and nurture certain aspects of our character over others (usually the parts that are bad) God is completely straight across the board. He gave us His law to show us that Holy aspect of His character which requires order. He gave us His grace to reveal to us that aspect of His character which is willing to provide something for the unworthy. He gave us His love so we'd see that aspect of His character which will go to any length to save us! He is a wonderful and awesome God! By beholding Him we become changed. By beholding His law we see how disorderly our lives are, by learning of His grace we learn of how unworthy we are to receive it. We don't need to discard one for the other, we need them both.

 

[Tangible]

Man has been completely spoiled by sin. We're damaged goods if you will. Christ has purchased us back, but to conform us to His glorious image, He needs to apply some "tough love". We have to rid ourselves of sin, but to do that you have to know what sin is. The law reveals sin. Now we walk in the Spirit who will guide us in truth and righteousness, steering us away from sin, and should we fall (because we will) we have an advocate with the Father.

We cannot rid ourselves of sin. That's why we need a Savior. If we could rid ourselves of sin, we wouldn't need a Savior, and Christ died for nothing.